Giolito's latest tweaks

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I'm not under rating anything. It's important, sure, but physical tools can cure a lot of mental issues. If he was a mental case throwing 97 still (last year) with the same slider hes found this year then he's first or second year trevor bauer - 4.3-4.5 ERA with 9ks per 9 and flashes of brilliance. Or he's javy Vazquez. Last year he was the worst pitcher playing major league baseball. 

That is not as simplistic as his mind wasn't right. Nothing was right. I agree fully he was mentally broken as much as he was physically broken, but you seem to think his issues were 90% mental when they just weren't.

Nope, didn’t say that. It was lack of control (mechanical issues) compounded by mental issues. Simply pointing to advanced metrics and saying his stuff was terrible is too simplistic. Why was his stuff bad? It was clearly very good just 2-3 years ago. Where did it go? He’s not even 25 years old yet. Did his stuff suddenly vanish with no hope of returning? It seems that was your position a few months ago...

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

4 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Nope, didn’t say that. It was lack of control (mechanical issues) compounded by mental issues. Simply pointing to advanced metrics and saying his stuff was terrible is too simplistic. Why was his stuff bad? It was clearly very good just 2-3 years ago. Where did it go? He’s not even 25 years old yet. Did his stuff suddenly vanish with no hope of returning? It seems that was your position a few months ago...

It was bad because his velocity was down 5 mph, his breaking ball lost 4 inches of vertical break, his slider was one of the ten flattest in baseball and his change up had nothing to play off of with a dead fastball.

You continue to insinuate that giolito had good stuff last year and it was everything else that let him down when his stuff was complete and utter trash.

I'm just going to agree to disagree because once we start going down the anti-analytics path it just becomes a waste of time as you're not going to change your mind or thoughts in regards to that regardless of how much evidence is presented. Enjoy your holiday weekend. 

His stuff was no longer there because he was not pitching the same way as he did when he was in A ball. Tools can look amazing against lesser competition - happens all the time.

Edited May 24, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Jack Parkman]

5 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

It was bad because his velocity was down 5 mph, his breaking ball lost 4 inches of vertical break, his slider was one of the ten flattest in baseball and his change up had nothing to play off of with a dead fastball.

You continue to insinuate that giolito had good stuff last year and it was everything else that let him down when his stuff was complete and utter trash.

I'm just going to agree to disagree because once we start going down the anti-analytics path it just becomes a waste of time as you're not going to change your mind or thoughts in regards to that regardless of how much evidence is presented. Enjoy your holiday weekend. 

He did have good stuff on the nights when he wasn't fighting his mechanics. Unfortunately, he was fighting his mechanics quite often last year. His reduced velocity and spin on breaking balls were related to his mechanical issues. 

You could see wild velocity and sharpness fluctuations from game to game and inning to inning within a start. 

Did I think he'd get this good this quickly? No. But the ability was always there. He's comfortable with his delivery and now the elite velocity is starting to come back as I thought it would. 

Edited May 24, 2019 by Jack Parkman

[ptatc]

18 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I think its safe to say I played baseball at a higher level than 99.9% of the population but I dont use that crutch very often if ever - maybe to talk about locker room chemistry and leadership and things like that... but when it comes to evaluating changes and etc within the game, much of that is science and mathematical. As I noted, the change in his repertoire was analytically driven and likely as much of a driving force towards his improvements as anything else.

His stuff sucked because mechanical he was a disaster. Your mind doesnt decrease your fastball velocity.

the mental aspect does change your fastball velocity. It's confidence.  if you continually have troubles you get timid and dont throw it like you should. It's the whole "aiming vs. throwing" concept. You take some velocity off because you are trying too hard to put it in a spot. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

I will say, raBBit didnt you delete a bunch of posts when you were wrong before? I find it ironic. I will always take my licks and own up to being wrong about something... if you aren't one of those people you probably shouldnt throw stones from inside your glass house.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

5 minutes ago, ptatc said:

the mental aspect does change your fastball velocity. It's confidence.  if you continually have troubles you get timid and dont throw it like you should. It's the whole "aiming vs. throwing" concept. You take some velocity off because you are trying too hard to put it in a spot. 

If you're taking something off of all your pitches to try and get them over and you're still walking 5 guys per 9, I dont know what to say. I do agree that does happen though.

Also, even if that was the case your peak velocity would not change at all - just your average velocity. Giolitos peak velocity was down every bit as much as his average velocity.

Edited May 24, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

11 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

He did have good stuff on the nights when he wasn't fighting his mechanics. Unfortunately, he was fighting his mechanics quite often last year. His reduced velocity and spin on breaking balls were related to his mechanical issues. 

You could see wild velocity and sharpness fluctuations from game to game and inning to inning within a start. 

Did I think he'd get this good this quickly? No. But the ability was always there. He's comfortable with his delivery and now the elite velocity is starting to come back as I thought it would. 

^

[poppysox]

1 hour ago, peppers312 said:

good point. LOL

I reopened this post because often one of us is the lone voice in the night on some subject.  Jack was talked down to by the usual naysayers In his support of Giolito.   Sometimes it's easier to say nothing.   Just wanted to give him his due.

[gusguyman]

2 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

If true, then you are severely underrating the mental aspect of the game and how that can affect performance, something Giolito was clearly struggling with last year. These are human beings, not robots. His mechanical issues compounded with his mental issues and resulted in the mess we witnessed for much of last season.

"If true, you still are wrong about the thing you know way more about according to my previous statements."

[ChiSox1917]

7 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Playing baseball at a high level does not make one an authority on the mindset of all baseball players at all imo. Idk why but I am not a fan of that line of thinking.

You are talking in simplistic childhood coach speak. Giolitos problems went much further beyond one or two pinpointed issues.

Giolito was too emotional, sure.. but his stuff sucked. I am not sure why you dont want to accept that his stuff sucked. It just did. Not a single pitch he threw last year even graded out as average.

I'm convinced you don't actually watch any of the games and just check boxscores.  Giolitos stuff sucked in the first half of the year.  He had a 2mph bump on his fastball in the second half.  His stuff came back midway through the year.  What plagued him throughout the year was a complete lack of command of any of his pitches.  

[ron883]

18 minutes ago, ChiSox1917 said:

I'm convinced you don't actually watch any of the games and just check boxscores.  Giolitos stuff sucked in the first half of the year.  He had a 2mph bump on his fastball in the second half.  His stuff came back midway through the year.  What plagued him throughout the year was a complete lack of command of any of his pitches.  

I actually agree with ray ray. His stuff looked absolutely underwhelming all last year. Nothing was impressive. His turnaround has been unexpected and great. 

[gusguyman]

4 hours ago, ChiSox1917 said:

I'm convinced you don't actually watch any of the games and just check boxscores.  Giolitos stuff sucked in the first half of the year.  He had a 2mph bump on his fastball in the second half.  His stuff came back midway through the year.  What plagued him throughout the year was a complete lack of command of any of his pitches.  

Proof before anyone disputes it

[poppysox]

Proof for most of the things we discuss would be hard to come by.  We mostly talk opinion.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

11 hours ago, ChiSox1917 said:

I'm convinced you don't actually watch any of the games and just check boxscores.  Giolitos stuff sucked in the first half of the year.  He had a 2mph bump on his fastball in the second half.  His stuff came back midway through the year.  What plagued him throughout the year was a complete lack of command of any of his pitches.  

Exactly. And that’s how I started this whole discussion. Lack of control/command is what killed him last year. Improving in that one area has made a world of difference in both his mental state and subsequent results. And that’s why the Glasnow comp is relevant because it is the same thing that plagued him. Just look at Glasnow’s numbers the last 3 years in MLB. Each year his walk rate improved so did his ERA. This isn’t rocket science. Even with great stuff it’s tough to be effective when you are walking 5 or 6 every 9 innings.

[poppysox]

57 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Exactly. And that’s how I started this whole discussion. Lack of control/command is what killed him last year. Improving in that one area has made a world of difference in both his mental state and subsequent results. And that’s why the Glasnow comp is relevant because it is the same thing that plagued him. Just look at Glasnow’s numbers the last 3 years in MLB. Each year his walk rate improved so did his ERA. This isn’t rocket science. Even with great stuff it’s tough to be effective when you are walking 5 or 6 every 9 innings.

All the stuff in the world means nothings if you can't control it.  I thought Cooper was known for his abilities to help along these lines.  I know he was given credit for fixing Thornton.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Now #6 in fWAR of all MLB pitchers. Remarkable, especially considering he has 1-2 less starts than most of the field.

[poppysox]

16 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Now #6 in fWAR of all MLB pitchers. Remarkable, especially considering he has 1-2 less starts than most of the field.

If my eyes are not deceiving me he has looked like a #1 type starter.

[bmags]

20 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Now #6 in fWAR of all MLB pitchers. Remarkable, especially considering he has 1-2 less starts than most of the field.

Among other things, really respect the effort he likely put into getting his body ready for the season.

The main concern Fegan pointed to in the article posted in the OP was that endurance would be an issue. Granted, it's late may, but he was throwing 97 mph in the 8th last night. At least within starts he has been able to maintain without fatigue.

I'm sure end of year he may hit a wall, but that's a good thing. It means he has been pitching through another year. 

Major props to Giolito. Please sign his pitching coach.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

5 minutes ago, poppysox said:

If my eyes are not deceiving me he has looked like a #1 type starter.

By any measure, he’s absolutely been that. He’s pitched like an ace not just for the Sox crappy starting rotation but has pitched like an ace even if he were on a World Series contender.

[SoxAce]

@Jack Parkman go ahead...

 

 

 

[chitownsportsfan]

He does look a lot like Verlander when he's pinging in that 97mph fastball up and on the corners.  Not amazing secondary pitches just solid but when you have command like that you don't really need much more.

His velocity late last year was certainly up but it wasn't up like it is now where he's throwing 96-97 well after 80 pitches and into the 8th and 9th innings.   He's also cleaned up his problems with holding runners.  Just an absolute miracle turnaround.

[wegner]

Now I'm worried about how long we have control of Gio

[chitownsportsfan]

50 minutes ago, wegner said:

Now I'm worried about how long we have control of Gio

He's got what, 4 years of arb left?  That said, if he does complete a miracle turnaround here you'd have to think he'd prefer to stay a Sox and sign a long term extension.

 

 

Edited May 29, 2019 by chitownsportsfan

[poppysox]

1 hour ago, chitownsportsfan said:

He does look a lot like Verlander when he's pinging in that 97mph fastball up and on the corners.  Not amazing secondary pitches just solid but when you have command like that you don't really need much more.

His velocity late last year was certainly up but it wasn't up like it is now where he's throwing 96-97 well after 80 pitches and into the 8th and 9th innings.   He's also cleaned up his problems with holding runners.  Just an absolute miracle turnaround.

I can't remember a pitcher improving the holding on runners thing like this.  Like magic.