Look at Ray Ray Run Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 (edited) 28 minutes ago, bmags said: Nobody said they were the most talented team in the nba, they just actually know what they are talking about. They have called them "very talented." Anyone who watches the Bulls and thinks they're even a little talented is delusional beyond rescue. Talent literally reigns in the NBA. No team with "a lot of talent" or 4 "average to above average players" has 15 wins - injuries be damned. The Bulls have two decent pieces - Markannen and Lavine - and literally nothing else... and Lavine is more of a 2nd or 3rd option on a playoff team than a go to option, and Markannen is still soft, exposed in the paint defensively, and weak around the rim. He runs a great high pick and roll though, I'll give him that. The Bulls haven't drafted well since Jimmy Butler. They lucked into Rose. Without lucking into the #1 pick, that team would have been in basketball hell for 2 decades. At least now they're not in basketball hell and they're actually bad enough to get an impact player in the draft instead of sitting around the 6-8 seed and losing in the 1st or second round. I have modeled basketball for 15 years - NBA and NCAAB. It is the main sport I dabble in modeling and analytics for "investment" purposes. That doesn't mean I know more than you or anyone else - or that I am an expert in all facets of basketball - but I'm certainly not a novice in following basketball. Love baseball, but it has never made me money because I have been unable to model DFS and/or the market for baseball like I have been able to do with basketball. The Bulls hired Vinny Del Negro and Fred Hoiberg - one guy who literally doesn't have the qualifications to coach at Bethune Cookman and the other who wasn't even a top 10 coach in the college game during his time at Iowa State. Hoiberg ran one of the most vanilla space centered offensive systems the game has ever seen. No rotations on the baseline or in the paint, very few back screens to open up the corners - it was basically a box set pick and roll offense that didn't push for off the ball rotations which made it the most stagnant up-tempo offense in NBA history. Paxson got in a physical fight with an employee. They ostracized the only coach that ever did anything for them - they meddle in day-to-day activities such as practice time and game rotations. They are one of the three biggest basketball brands in the world and basketball is the fastest growing sport in the world - the only sport with a chance of catching soccer. They are worth twice as much money as the White Sox, and they play in a sport where they can't be outbid on premium free agents. The Bulls are the most dysfunctional organization in professional sports, currently, but they may luck out into a top 2 pick this year and get a star. And talent is all that matters in the NBA, regardless of how dysfunctional you are. Edited March 1, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 9 minutes ago, GermanSoxFan said: Ichiro was gone in 2012. Walker and Haniger were traded for each other before the 2017 season. None of the timelines line up the way you presented them. It's just a random collection of names. Seattle and the White Sox are the most similar franchises in MLB. They are two sides of the same coin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said: They have called them "very talented." Anyone who watches the Bulls and thinks they're even a little talented is delusional beyond rescue. Talent literally reigns in the NBA. No team with "a lot of talent" or 4 "average to above average players" has 15 wins - injuries be damned. The Bulls have two decent pieces - Markannen and Lavine - and literally nothing else... and Lavine is more of a 2nd or 3rd option on a playoff team than a go to option, and Markannen is still soft, exposed in the paint defensively, and weak around the rim. He runs a great high pick and roll though, I'll give him that. The Bulls haven't drafted well since Jimmy Butler. They lucked into Rose. Without lucking into the #1 pick, that team would have been in basketball hell for 2 decades. At least now they're not in basketball hell and they're actually bad enough to get an impact player in the draft instead of sitting around the 6-8 seed and losing in the 1st or second round. I have modeled basketball for 15 years - NBA and NCAAB. It is the main sport I dabble in modeling and analytics for "investment" purposes. That doesn't mean I know more than you or anyone else - or that I am an expert in all facets of basketball - but I'm certainly not a novice in following basketball. Love baseball, but it has never made me money because I have been unable to model DFS and/or the market for baseball like I have been able to do with basketball. The Bulls hired Vinny Del Negro and Fred Hoiberg - one guy who literally doesn't have the qualifications to coach at Bethune Cookman and the other who wasn't even a top 10 coach in the college game during his time at Iowa State. Hoiberg ran one of the most vanilla space centered offensive systems the game has ever seen. No rotations on the baseline or in the paint, very few back screens to open up the corners - it was basically a box set pick and roll offense that didn't push for off the ball rotations which made it the most stagnant up-tempo offense in NBA history. Paxson got in a physical fight with an employee. They ostracized the only coach that ever did anything for them - they meddle in day-to-day activities such as practice time and game rotations. They are one of the three biggest basketball brands in the world and basketball is the fastest growing sport in the world - the only sport with a chance of catching soccer. They are worth twice as much money as the White Sox, and they play in a sport where they can't be outbid on premium free agents. The Bulls are the most dysfunctional organization in professional sports, currently, but they may luck out into a top 2 pick this year and get a star. You seem like a badly wounded Thibs and Butler fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GermanSoxFan Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 They did luck into Rose, but he wasn't a slam dunk at 1-1, they could have easily takeen Beasley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 1 minute ago, chitownsportsfan said: You seem like a badly wounded Thibs and Butler fan. I'm a Marquette fan, so I was certainly a Jimmy Butler fan, but I tend to always be fans of players and not front offices - weird how that works huh? The Bulls also treated Derrick Rose like complete and utter garbage. The dysfunction with how they handled the Rose injuries was embarrassing to a level the Sox will never achieve. You want to know why stars don't go to the Bulls? Because they treat players like garbage. They almost literally killed Luol Deng, and then treated him like garbage following that ordeal. It's the Bulls MO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 5 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: They have called them "very talented." Anyone who watches the Bulls and thinks they're even a little talented is delusional beyond rescue. Talent literally reigns in the NBA. No team with "a lot of talent" or 4 "average to above average players" has 15 wins - injuries be damned. The Bulls have two decent pieces - Markannen and Lavine - and literally nothing else... and Lavine is more of a 2nd or 3rd option on a playoff team than a go to option, and Markannen is still soft, exposed in the paint defensively, and weak around the rim. He runs a great high pick and roll though, I'll give him that. The Bulls haven't drafted well since Jimmy Butler. They lucked into Rose. Without lucking into the #1 pick, that team would have been in basketball hell for 2 decades. At least now they're not in basketball hell and they're actually bad enough to get an impact player in the draft instead of sitting around the 6-8 seed and losing in the 1st or second round. I have modeled basketball for 15 years - NBA and NCAAB. It is the main sport I dabble in modeling and analytics for "investment" purposes. That doesn't mean I know more than you or anyone else - or that I am an expert in all facets of basketball - but I'm certainly not a novice in following basketball. Love baseball, but it has never made me money because I have been unable to model DFS and/or the market for baseball like I have been able to do with basketball. The Bulls hired Vinny Del Negro and Fred Hoiberg - one guy who literally doesn't have the qualifications to coach at Bethune Cookman and the other who wasn't even a top 10 coach in the college game during his time at Iowa State. Hoiberg ran one of the most vanilla space centered offensive systems the game has ever seen. No rotations on the baseline or in the paint, very few back screens to open up the corners - it was basically a box set pick and roll offense that didn't push for off the ball rotations which made it the most stagnant up-tempo offense in NBA history. Paxson got in a physical fight with an employee. They ostracized the only coach that ever did anything for them - they meddle in day-to-day activities such as practice time and game rotations. They are one of the three biggest basketball brands in the world and basketball is the fastest growing sport in the world - the only sport with a chance of catching soccer. They are worth twice as much money as the White Sox, and they play in a sport where they can't be outbid on premium free agents. The Bulls are the most dysfunctional organization in professional sports, currently, but they may luck out into a top 2 pick this year and get a star. And talent is all that matters in the NBA, regardless of how dysfunctional you are. What people are commenting on is how well the bulls draft. Everything else was answered. They are not commenting on acquiring or selling of draft picks. They are not talking about free agency signings. Or coach signings. Or medical team. They aren't saying the bulls are "very talented", you are making up arguments. Your comment was the bulls haven't drafted well in 10 years. Well, Butler was drafted 8 years ago in a draft with mirotic. Gibson was 10 years ago. They had a really horrendous draft with McDermott, valentine and teague were bad picks, but we are talking about picks outside the top 12. They vary. WCJ and Markannen look like good picks, with markannen as very good. Do me a favor, compare the bulls drafts to where they drafted and what was available. They compare that performance of the last 10 years to other NBA franchises draft performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 5 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: I'm a Marquette fan, so I was certainly a Jimmy Butler fan, but I tend to always be fans of players and not front offices - weird how that works huh? The Bulls also treated Derrick Rose like complete and utter garbage. The dysfunction with how they handled the Rose injuries was embarrassing to a level the Sox will never achieve. You want to know why stars don't go to the Bulls? Because they treat players like garbage. They almost literally killed Luol Deng, and then treated him like garbage following that ordeal. It's the Bulls MO. yet none of these things have anything to do with drafting, which is what people have said they are pretty good at, and you laugh and say "you think they are good at drafting? They nearly killed luol deng!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 (edited) 17 minutes ago, bmags said: What people are commenting on is how well the bulls draft. Everything else was answered. They are not commenting on acquiring or selling of draft picks. They are not talking about free agency signings. Or coach signings. Or medical team. They aren't saying the bulls are "very talented", you are making up arguments. Your comment was the bulls haven't drafted well in 10 years. Well, Butler was drafted 8 years ago in a draft with mirotic. Gibson was 10 years ago. They had a really horrendous draft with McDermott, valentine and teague were bad picks, but we are talking about picks outside the top 12. They vary. WCJ and Markannen look like good picks, with markannen as very good. Do me a favor, compare the bulls drafts to where they drafted and what was available. They compare that performance of the last 10 years to other NBA franchises draft performance. Ok, so they haven't drafted well in 8 years. Year Round Pick Name Nationality College/HS/club 2018 1 7 Wendell Carter United States Duke University 2018 1 22 Chandler Hutchison United States Boise State University 2017 1 16 Justin Patton United States Creighton University 2017 2 38 Jordan Bell United States University of Oregon 2016 1 14 Denzel Valentine United States Michigan State University 2016 2 48 Paul Zipser Germany Bayern Munich (Germany) 2015 1 22 Bobby Portis United States University of Arkansas 2014 1 16 Jusuf Nurkić Bosnia and Herzegovina Cedevita Zagreb (Croatia) 2014 1 19 Gary Harris United States Michigan State University 2014 2 49 Cameron Bairstow Australia University of New Mexico 2013 1 20 Tony Snell United States University of New Mexico 2013 2 49 Erik Murphy United States Finland University of Florida 2012 1 29 Marquis Teague United States University of Kentucky 2011 1 28 Norris Cole United States Cleveland State University Markannen was drafted ahead of Donovan Mitchell and there's nothing that says Lauri Markannen is a good (key word) basketball player right now. I have Markkannen rated as the 92nd best player in the NBA this year in terms of overall efficiency. I see him anywhere from 75-100 in other publicly available player efficiency ratings. Wendell Carter plays a style of basketball that no longer fits in the NBA in regards to drafting 7th overall. They should have drafted Sexton - you draft for ceilings in the top 10, nothing else. Accumulators exist in the NBA - someone has to put up numbers on bad basketball teams. I call this the Kevin Love syndrome - Love was a 3rd option on a really good team, but as the #1 option on bad teams his numbers looked super star like but Kevin Love was not a superstar by any means. The best players the Bulls have drafted since 2011 were not even drafted by the Bulls - Harris and Nurkic. They felt the need to trade those spots for Doug McDermott. I have no idea how Lauri Markannen is "very good." Could he figure it out? Sure. But he's soft in the paint and over matched every night. His defensive ratings are about as bad as it gets. Now last month Markannen was good - no denying that - but it was his best month as a pro. I hope Markannen turns into a star, but he's not one yet and there are a lot of holes in his game still and accumulating big numbers on a bad team just doesn't prove anything. When you put up big numbers that impact the game, that's when things matter. Edited March 1, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 Having not watched a Bulls game in probably 20-something years, I've learned an awful lot about the Bulls in this thread. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 *calls people who watch the Bulls and see "even a little talent" delusional* *calls Markkanen "overmatched every night" and "soft"* 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 17 minutes ago, bmags said: yet none of these things have anything to do with drafting, which is what people have said they are pretty good at, and you laugh and say "you think they are good at drafting? They nearly killed luol deng!" You're hanging your hat on Jimmy Butler, Taj Gibson and Joakim Noah - Rose doesn't count. Those guys were a decade ago. They also drafted Aldridge and traded him for Tyrus Thomas. They had a nice 3 years run with the guys listed above, but that's it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 1 minute ago, Jose Abreu said: *calls people who watch the Bulls and see "even a little talent" delusional* *calls Markkanen "overmatched every night" and "soft"* Well he's certainly over matched defensively - which is what I said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 6 hours ago, ron883 said: Who has been the worse of the unfireable front office duos employed by Jerry Reinsdorf? Both would likely have been fired by now under any other owner. I have KenHahn being worse than Garpax. While the Sox have won a world series under Kenny, they just have an overall abysmal record. The Bulls have a nice core and have drafted far better than the White Sox. It's tough to compare across sports, but u have Garpax higher than KenHahn This was the question. Where does it say just evaluate their drafting? This also says the Bulls have a nice core, which just isn't accurate. The Bulls have zero stars in a league driven by stars. I commented that they haven't drafted well in a decade either - you said 8 years. Sorry for being off by 2 years. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Well he's certainly over matched defensively - which is what I said. I think that's an overstatement. He's not a good defender but he's also not Enes Kanter out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 1 minute ago, Jose Abreu said: I think that's an overstatement. He's not a good defender but he's also not Enes Kanter out there. Not being the worst defender in the NBA (Kanter) isn't really something to hang your hat on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mqr Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 42 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said: Seattle and the White Sox are the most similar franchises in MLB. They are two sides of the same coin. I'd go Mets, but they've had some recent success Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 Just now, mqr said: I'd go Mets, but they've had some recent success The Mets also have a couple things that are different - a much bigger market, a new stadium, but they also lost a S***ton of money in the Bernie Madoff scandal, like half a billion dollars or so. "The White Sox run their franchise like a team that was just defrauded out of half a billion dollars" is a statement I can endorse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 42 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Ok, so they haven't drafted well in 8 years. Year Round Pick Name Nationality College/HS/club 2018 1 7 Wendell Carter United States Duke University 2018 1 22 Chandler Hutchison United States Boise State University 2017 1 16 Justin Patton United States Creighton University 2017 2 38 Jordan Bell United States University of Oregon 2016 1 14 Denzel Valentine United States Michigan State University 2016 2 48 Paul Zipser Germany Bayern Munich (Germany) 2015 1 22 Bobby Portis United States University of Arkansas 2014 1 16 Jusuf Nurkić Bosnia and Herzegovina Cedevita Zagreb (Croatia) 2014 1 19 Gary Harris United States Michigan State University 2014 2 49 Cameron Bairstow Australia University of New Mexico 2013 1 20 Tony Snell United States University of New Mexico 2013 2 49 Erik Murphy United States Finland University of Florida 2012 1 29 Marquis Teague United States University of Kentucky 2011 1 28 Norris Cole United States Cleveland State University Markannen was drafted ahead of Donovan Mitchell and there's nothing that says Lauri Markannen is a good (key word) basketball player right now. I have Markkannen rated as the 92nd best player in the NBA this year in terms of overall efficiency. I see him anywhere from 75-100 in other publicly available player efficiency ratings. Wendell Carter plays a style of basketball that no longer fits in the NBA in regards to drafting 7th overall. They should have drafted Sexton - you draft for ceilings in the top 10, nothing else. Accumulators exist in the NBA - someone has to put up numbers on bad basketball teams. I call this the Kevin Love syndrome - Love was a 3rd option on a really good team, but as the #1 option on bad teams his numbers looked super star like but Kevin Love was not a superstar by any means. The best players the Bulls have drafted since 2011 were not even drafted by the Bulls - Harris and Nurkic. They felt the need to trade those spots for Doug McDermott. I have no idea how Lauri Markannen is "very good." Could he figure it out? Sure. But he's soft in the paint and over matched every night. His defensive ratings are about as bad as it gets. Now last month Markannen was good - no denying that - but it was his best month as a pro. I hope Markannen turns into a star, but he's not one yet and there are a lot of holes in his game still and accumulating big numbers on a bad team just doesn't prove anything. When you put up big numbers that impact the game, that's when things matter. lol k i'm done. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, bmags said: lol k i'm done. Ok. Great conversation and input from you in this thread. Glad I took the time to address your point. Colin Sexton fits the modern NBA game. He may bust out and never be able to run an offense at a high level, but Wendell Carter is not good and has a very limited ceiling. Edited March 1, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 I heard the Score guys call Kenny/Hahn "KennyHahn-a" kind of like the restaurant Benihana. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron883 Posted March 1, 2019 Author Share Posted March 1, 2019 (edited) 57 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Ok. Great conversation and input from you in this thread. Glad I took the time to address your point. Colin Sexton fits the modern NBA game. He may bust out and never be able to run an offense at a high level, but Wendell Carter is not good and has a very limited ceiling. Your NBA input is simply trash. No other way to put it. Edited March 1, 2019 by ron883 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 11 minutes ago, ron883 said: Your NBA input is simply trash. No other way to put it. Another wonderful addition the to thread. If you want to refute me with facts and stats and etc go right ahead My trash NBA thoughts have made me quite a bit of money so I'll take that trash all day. Nothing better than people just saying something is trash without explaining why or refuting a claim. When I start calling people names and getting personal instead of addressing the post and refuting it logically let me know- at that point I will have lost. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Ok. Great conversation and input from you in this thread. Glad I took the time to address your point. Colin Sexton fits the modern NBA game. He may bust out and never be able to run an offense at a high level, but Wendell Carter is not good and has a very limited ceiling. http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/13 Hey, at least he's not Kevin Knox! Another "high upside" rookie having one of the worst seasons of all time. Yikes. Edited March 1, 2019 by chitownsportsfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GermanSoxFan Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 (edited) If you look at the past drafts any closer, it's not like there were superstarts drafted after the Bulls picked in some of these drafts. I don't think you can call Bobby Portis a bad pick if you see who was picked behind him. And as I said before, they deserve credit for Rose. Beasley would have been the better "fit" and they could have easily drafed him. Edited March 1, 2019 by GermanSoxFan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted March 1, 2019 Share Posted March 1, 2019 36 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said: http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/13 Hey, at least he's not Kevin Knox! Another "high upside" rookie having one of the worst seasons of all time. Yikes. I never once said Colin Sexton has been a good player so far but his ceiling is about 10 floors higher than Wendell Carter Jr. That was my point. Sexton has struggled mightily but he also has shown flashes of talent that Wendell Carter has not. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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