Garpax vs KenHahn

[Kyyle23]

8 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

Hold your horses...the Sox haven't won anything yet. 

I mean, they have. Together.  And Garpax never has.  Williams and hahn weren't President and GM but they were GM and asst GM.  But they have experienced winning as a result of their jobs.  Garpax never has 

[Y2Jimmy0]

Close this thread. It's one of the dumbest arguments ever. Kenny Williams and Rick Hahn won a championship. John Paxson's reign of terror is going on year #18 with 5 playoff series wins and 7 head coaches. It's not even close to the same. 

[mqr]

12 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

Hold your horses...the Sox haven't won anything yet. 

They have

[Moan4Yoan]

26 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

John Paxson's reign of terror is going on year #18 with 5 playoff series wins and 7 head coaches.

Perfectly stated.  ?

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

10 hours ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

I am not one to defend this FO and had been advocating these clowns to be fired for too long now. It is lost cause with JR and his son in charge so I don’t even bother these days.

What I don’t get is your infatuation with Sexton and constant attempt to belittle WCJ who is a fine young player. I get that in the new age NBA you need ball handlers, and shooters to build a dynamic offense. While Sexton fits the bill, he is also terribly limited in other areas and struggles defensively not being able to defend bigger guys. It’s no coincidence he’s one of the worst defensive guards in the league for the second year in a row, while on the other hand WCJ is a top 20 defensive big across several metrics. As others have pointed out, you do notice the difference defensively after WCJ went down with injury. And this isn’t Trae Young we’re talking about, while being a smaller guard could change the game in a number of ways with elite skill sets

You’re a stats guy, so I trust that you have looked past his scoring numbers and looked at advanced stats - WS VORP, PER, on/off court differentials, RPM, etc. I don’t see Sexton even being close to making the impact WCJ does. I am not into getting into a debate that Wendell’s growth has been stunted by playing for a coach who has no business coaching in the NBA and who has shown no success whatsoever drawing up a game plan for his big men on offense.

1. I want to emphasize something - I never have said WCJ is trash and has no future in the league. In fact, I think he'll be in the league for a long while. My knock on WCJ is that I think his ceiling is far too limited for a team that needed to take risks in the draft to find high ceiling talent. 

2. I don't think Sexton has been great by any means; I think he has shown immense progress and development over the last 8 weeks, which is a really good sign given his athletic profile. I still have the same concerns about Sexton as I did before; I am not sure he can run an offense at the NBA level because he doesn't see the floor all that well. He's an undersized 2 as of today, but there's just no denying his offensive talent as a scorer. He could flame out, but I'd rather have that asset than WCJ.

3. While I am not in love with any individual NBA advanced metric - for a multitude of reasons - I do obviously use them and review them. 

4. Boylen is what he is; the problem with WCJ is that no one is running sets for bigs anymore, not just Boylen, unless that big is running a pick and pop or pick and roll. WCJ can't shoot well enough from the NBA 3 point line to keep people honest, and I don't think that shot is ever going to come to him which greatly limits his offensive ability because he's not great in the paint with his feet. 

As for the MPJ comment above; I don't need to see anything else from MPJ. He may get hurt again and his career could end, but the talent is undeniable - as it as at the time. The guy has top 10 NBA player talent, and the Bulls passed because they wanted the safer contributor when the team had no real playoff possibilities.

People were optimistic last year about the Bulls - I didn't see it. You have people in here calling Lauri a star; it's nonsense. Lauri is soft, and passive; blaming his lack of bucket attacking on the team pushing out the mid-range J - its complete BS. Lauri moves poorly without the ball, has no sense of post positioning, gets pushed off the block by anyone from a SF to a C, and his pick and pop game sucks because his jumper has betrayed him. He wonders around within the offense, and he doesn't ever exert his strength or play to them. He's been banged up, but that's not going to change because he's SOFT. He's a 7'0 shooting 43% from the field for his career - while shooting under 50% from 2. He was never going to be a great rebounder, but it's still frustrating. 

This team has one asset and one asset only - Lavine. Everyone else is a dispensable/recyclable piece that has no importance. It's amazing to me that people thought this was a "nice core" last year. The NBA is a star and athleticism driven game. The Bulls have very little.

[thxfrthmmrs]

8 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

1. I want to emphasize something - I never have said WCJ is trash and has no future in the league. In fact, I think he'll be in the league for a long while. My knock on WCJ is that I think his ceiling is far too limited for a team that needed to take risks in the draft to find high ceiling talent. 

2. I don't think Sexton has been great by any means; I think he has shown immense progress and development over the last 8 weeks, which is a really good sign given his athletic profile. I still have the same concerns about Sexton as I did before; I am not sure he can run an offense at the NBA level because he doesn't see the floor all that well. He's an undersized 2 as of today, but there's just no denying his offensive talent as a scorer. He could flame out, but I'd rather have that asset than WCJ.

3. While I am not in love with any individual NBA advanced metric - for a multitude of reasons - I do obviously use them and review them. 

4. Boylen is what he is; the problem with WCJ is that no one is running sets for bigs anymore, not just Boylen, unless that big is running a pick and pop or pick and roll. WCJ can't shoot well enough from the NBA 3 point line to keep people honest, and I don't think that shot is ever going to come to him which greatly limits his offensive ability because he's not great in the paint with his feet. 

As for the MPJ comment above; I don't need to see anything else from MPJ. He may get hurt again and his career could end, but the talent is undeniable - as it as at the time. The guy has top 10 NBA player talent, and the Bulls passed because they wanted the safer contributor when the team had no real playoff possibilities.

People were optimistic last year about the Bulls - I didn't see it. You have people in here calling Lauri a star; it's nonsense. Lauri is soft, and passive; blaming his lack of bucket attacking on the team pushing out the mid-range J - its complete BS. Lauri moves poorly without the ball, has no sense of post positioning, gets pushed off the block by anyone from a SF to a C, and his pick and pop game sucks because his jumper has betrayed him. He wonders around within the offense, and he doesn't ever exert his strength or play to them. He's been banged up, but that's not going to change because he's SOFT. He's a 7'0 shooting 43% from the field for his career - while shooting under 50% from 2. He was never going to be a great rebounder, but it's still frustrating. 

This team has one asset and one asset only - Lavine. Everyone else is a dispensable/recyclable piece that has no importance. It's amazing to me that people thought this was a "nice core" last year. The NBA is a star and athleticism driven game. The Bulls have very little.

WCJ will do a bit of everything on offense with no real weakness and will excel at rebound and defensively. Being able to switch and hold his own against most smaller players, he isn't a sexy player, but a very valuable player in the modern NBA. While he doesn't have a high ceiling, I also don't think Sexton does either. The latter, at present, is a volume scorer on one of the worst teams in the league and is a negative in every other aspect of the game. I see him as at best a present day Monta Ellis and at worst a 6th man and spark plug off the bench. I don't think Bulls by any means screwed up by taking Wendell over him.

I also am not in love with any one particular advanced basketball stat, but it is telling that literally every single one of them has WCJ over Sexton, and that is with Sexton balling his ass off while Wendell is on the shelf to close the gap.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

48 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said:

WCJ will do a bit of everything on offense with no real weakness and will excel at rebound and defensively. Being able to switch and hold his own against most smaller players, he isn't a sexy player, but a very valuable player in the modern NBA. While he doesn't have a high ceiling, I also don't think Sexton does either. The latter, at present, is a volume scorer on one of the worst teams in the league and is a negative in every other aspect of the game. I see him as at best a present day Monta Ellis and at worst a 6th man and spark plug off the bench. I don't think Bulls by any means screwed up by taking Wendell over him.

I also am not in love with any one particular advanced basketball stat, but it is telling that literally every single one of them has WCJ over Sexton, and that is with Sexton balling his ass off while Wendell is on the shelf to close the gap.

Sexton started off really slow. His past 4 weeks have been impressive. 

He also grades out positively offensively overall so I wouldn't label him as a negative on that end of the floor.

Also, I loved Monta ha.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[SonofaRoache]

GarPax are the worst FO officials in sports. Their claim to fame came on the miracle of Rose. And even then they couldn't put a true championship caliber team together. Their drafting has been solid, but they've ditched their great picks to start failing rebuilds. They can't acquire stars in a league where you need stars to win. Most teams can put together teams that max out as 4 to 8 seeds, but in the NBA teams try to build champions. 

I give Hahnny more credit because they won a title and actually try to win badly. The best excuse they have is unlike the Bulls, they don't have great attendance, money to spend, a national following, strong popularity around the league because of Jordan, or being the only team in a large market. Lastly, Hahnny's arrow is pointing up and their rebuilding is looking great. GarPax traded a star who could have recruited other stars to their team to rebuild. This rebuild has been a massive failure and the team has no hope. The fans have no hope. And even worst, they can't draft high enough to get a star, no one wants to play for them, and they have little cash to spend. 

[Jack Parkman]

Hahn and Kenny deserve more credit, but not that much more. The difference is negligible, despite the championship. Take the 2000s out of it and the gap shrinks to almost nothing. 

Derrick Rose got injured and Chris Sale didn't. That's the main difference. 

Hahn and Kenny did better in their trades. They both sucked at drafting.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[Kyyle23]

6 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

Hahn and Kenny deserve more credit, but not that much more. The difference is negligible, despite the championship. Take the 2000s out of it and the gap shrinks to almost nothing. 

Derrick Rose got injured and Chris Sale didn't. That's the main difference. 

Hahn and Kenny did better in their trades. They both sucked at drafting.

Dude, Kenny and Hahn won a championship.  This is not "negligible".  That is 100 percent tangible and completely separates them from GarPax

[SonofaRoache]

6 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

Hahn and Kenny deserve more credit, but not that much more. The difference is negligible, despite the championship. Take the 2000s out of it and the gap shrinks to almost nothing. 

Derrick Rose got injured and Chris Sale didn't. That's the main difference. 

Hahn and Kenny did better in their trades. They both sucked at drafting.

Derrick Rose was a miracle for GarPax anyway. They had a 1.7 percent chance of drafting him. Had the Bulls not been gifted that miracle. they would have drafted DJ Augustin, thus losing 80 percent of their success anyway. 

[Chicago White Sox]

1 minute ago, SonofaRoache said:

Derrick Rose was a miracle for GarPax anyway. They had a 1.7 percent chance of drafting him. Had the Bulls not been gifted that miracle. they would have drafted DJ Augustin, thus losing 80 percent of their success anyway. 

GarPax have been pretty good at drafting, but have been horrible at team building.  When kicking off a rebuild, you can’t draft safe picks over & over again and not expect to end up in NBA hell.  The lack of vision with those two is astounding.

[SonofaRoache]

11 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

GarPax have been pretty good at drafting, but have been horrible at team building.  When kicking off a rebuild, you can’t draft safe picks over & over again and not expect to end up in NBA hell.  The lack of vision with those two is astounding.

Their biggest problem is they can't convince stars to come here. In the NBA if you have a star, or two, you can elevate your team to contender status instantly. The best they could do was 2 points per game Ben Wallace, Boozer and a washed up Pau Gasol. 

[Dick Allen]

On 2/6/2020 at 7:49 AM, Chicago White Sox said:

GarPax have been pretty good at drafting, but have been horrible at team building.  When kicking off a rebuild, you can’t draft safe picks over & over again and not expect to end up in NBA hell.  The lack of vision with those two is astounding.

The very definition of NBA hell. They supposedly draft well, but still lose. The team needs a new vision. Pax, Gar, and Boylen have to go.

[Chicago White Sox]

47 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

The very definition of NBA hell. They supposedly draft well, but still lose. The team needs a new vision. Pax, Gar, and Boylen have to go.

Honestly, they haven’t recently reached NBA hell status yet.  That’s the ceiling of this rebuild, but right now they still aren’t even an 8 seed type team.  I have never in my life wanted to see a Chicago organization burn & crumble to the ground (outside of the Cubs) until now.  Until both Paxson & Foreman are gone, I say fuck the Bulls.

[Jack Parkman]

The bottom line is that Kenny has been in charge for 20 years and Hahn has been with the organization since 2002 and they haven't won anything in 15 years or made the playoffs in 12. 

If you look at the past decade, the difference isn't so obvious. 

Right now, KennyHahn>GarPax. But a lot revolves around this rebuild, and there's no guarantees there. I think the Sox could be very good, but we will have to wait and see. 

Edited February 8, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

On 3/1/2019 at 1:47 PM, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Ok, so they haven't drafted well in 8 years. 

Year	Round	Pick	Name	Nationality	College/HS/club
2018	1	7	Wendell Carter	United States	Duke University
2018	1	22	Chandler Hutchison	United States	Boise State University
2017	1	16	Justin Patton	United States	Creighton University
2017	2	38	Jordan Bell	United States	University of Oregon
2016	1	14	Denzel Valentine	United States	Michigan State University
2016	2	48	Paul Zipser	Germany	Bayern Munich (Germany)
2015	1	22	Bobby Portis	United States	University of Arkansas
2014	1	16	Jusuf Nurkić	Bosnia and Herzegovina	Cedevita Zagreb (Croatia)
2014	1	19	Gary Harris	United States	Michigan State University
2014	2	49	Cameron Bairstow	Australia	University of New Mexico
2013	1	20	Tony Snell	United States	University of New Mexico
2013	2	49	Erik Murphy	United States  Finland	University of Florida
2012	1	29	Marquis Teague	United States	University of Kentucky
2011	1	28	Norris Cole	United States	Cleveland State University

Markannen was drafted ahead of Donovan Mitchell and there's nothing that says Lauri Markannen is a good (key word) basketball player right now. I have Markkannen rated as the 92nd best player in the NBA this year in terms of overall efficiency. I see him anywhere from 75-100 in other publicly available player efficiency ratings. Wendell Carter plays a style of basketball that no longer fits in the NBA in regards to drafting 7th overall. They should have drafted Sexton - you draft for ceilings in the top 10, nothing else. Accumulators exist in the NBA - someone has to put up numbers on bad basketball teams. I call this the Kevin Love syndrome - Love was a 3rd option on a really good team, but as the #1 option on bad teams his numbers looked super star like but Kevin Love was not a superstar by any means.

The best players the Bulls have drafted since 2011 were not even drafted by the Bulls - Harris and Nurkic. They felt the need to trade those spots for Doug McDermott. I have no idea how Lauri Markannen is "very good." Could he figure it out? Sure. But he's soft in the paint and over matched every night. His defensive ratings are about as bad as it gets. Now last month Markannen was good - no denying that - but it was his best month as a pro. I hope Markannen turns into a star, but he's not one yet and there are a lot of holes in his game still and accumulating big numbers on a bad team just doesn't prove anything. When you put up big numbers that impact the game, that's when things matter.

 

On 3/1/2019 at 2:32 PM, bmags said:

lol k i'm done.

 

On 3/1/2019 at 2:36 PM, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Ok. Great conversation and input from you in this thread. Glad I took the time to address your point. 

Colin Sexton fits the modern NBA game. He may bust out and never be able to run an offense at a high level, but Wendell Carter is not good and has a very limited ceiling.

 

On 3/1/2019 at 3:33 PM, ron883 said:

Your NBA input is simply trash. No other way to put it. 

 

On 3/1/2019 at 3:47 PM, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Another wonderful addition the to thread. If you want to refute me with facts and stats and etc go right ahead

My trash NBA thoughts have made me quite a bit of money so I'll take that trash all day.

Nothing better than people just saying something is trash without explaining why or refuting a claim. 

When I start calling people names and getting personal instead of addressing the post and refuting it logically let me know- at that point I will have lost.

 

On 3/1/2019 at 3:51 PM, chitownsportsfan said:

http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/13

Hey, at least he's not Kevin Knox!  Another "high upside" rookie having one of the worst seasons of all time.  Yikes.

 

On 3/1/2019 at 4:29 PM, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I never once said Colin Sexton has been a good player so far but his ceiling is about 10 floors higher than Wendell Carter Jr. That was my point. Sexton has struggled mightily but he also has shown flashes of talent that Wendell Carter has not.

Youre welcome for the free education following all the snide remarks about how ignorant my thoughts were. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

On 3/4/2019 at 1:40 AM, Chisoxmb35 said:

The hot takes on WCJr here are freaking Gold lol. Fyi, WCJ has shown more than enough talent to be excited about. Please post this type of thing on any respectable NBA or Bulls message board to find how awful that take actually is. Good grief. 

Might want to find some more reputable NBA boards if the ones you follow were filled with fans of the bulls and wcj future. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

On 3/6/2019 at 5:04 PM, thxfrthmmrs said:

This post is full of fallacies, false information, and a bunch of opinionated statements. Sorry pal, you may say you analyze basketball for a living, but no one is buying what you're selling.

Good call. In the future ill be sure to check with you first before analyzing basketball after your great analysis in this thread. Hopefully you've revised how you evaluate NBA talent in the last year+.

[bmags]

4 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Youre welcome for the free education following all the snide remarks about how ignorant my thoughts were. 

Congrats

[South Side Hit Men]

The thread is moot. GarPax was replaced with competent management  by Michael earlier this year.

RickWilled was replaced by LaRuse in February, announced publicly in October.

No Mercy LaRussa

Signed Cobra Kai!

 

[southsider2k5]

There is some Presidential levels of petty going on here.

Bravo.