Last Two Offseasons

[Chicago White Sox]

So I believe fathom has brought this up before, but Hahn has added very few pieces over the past two offseasons that could play long-term roles on the club.  Looking at the set of moves below, it’s somewhat shocking how little he’s actually accomplished over 24 months for a rebuilding club (I know there were some deadline deals as well).  There’s handful of under 30 controllable talents, a couple bridge guys, and multiple low ceiling vets.  

Rebuilding provides teams with a unique opportunity to offer playing time to talented, high ceiling players & prospects with question marks and IMO Hahn has completely failed to take advantage of that.  The 2019 offseason in particular is a complete disaster in that regard.  It’s just sad how much playing time & money we’re wasting on guys with little to no upside.  Hahn deserves shit for a lot of things (especially the Machado miss), but the lack of talent accumulation and creative thinking over the past two offseasons deserves a much greater spotlight.

2018 Offseason:

• Claimed OF Palka off waivers from the Twins
• Traded international slot money to the Mariners for RHP Vieira
• Signed free agent C Castillo to 2/$15M deal
• Claimed RHP Jose Ruiz off waives from the Padres
• Traded 2B Jake Peter to the Dodgers (three way trade) for RHP Soria & LHP Avilan
• Traded cash to the Padres for IF Rondon 
• Signed free agent RHP Gonzalez to 1/$4.8M deal

2019 Offseason:

• Traded 3B Yurchak to the Dodgers for LHP Banuelos
• Traded C Narvaez to the Mariners for RHP Colome
• Traded RHP Rosario to the Pirates for RHP Nova
• Traded OF Call to the Indians for 1B Alonso
• Signed free agent C McCann to 1/$2.5M deal
• Signed free agent RHP Herrera to 2/$18M deal
• Signed free agent OF Jay to 1/$4M deal
• Signed free agent RHP Santana to minor league ($4.3M)

[Chicago White Sox]

Would love to hear everyone’s thoughts on this.  Do people think this is the best Hahn could do?  Was there any youngish free agents that could solved long term holes?  Any buy low guys you wish we would have grabbed?  What would you have done differently?

[Moan4Yoan]

Sad when Palka, Vieira, Ruiz, and Rondon are your best moves.

[Dick Allen]

To be fair, they were out of ammo to trade for a good prospect. Maybe Rodon turns into that. And most didn’t  want them to spend at all last year. Save the money for Harpchado.

People trusted them and they were burned.

Edited March 2, 2019 by Dick Allen

[SoxBlanco]

21 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

To be fair, they were out of ammo to trade for a good prospect. Maybe Rodon turns into that. And most didn’t  want them to spend at all last year. Save the money for Harpchado.

People trusted them and they were burned.

I have similar thoughts. The Machado/Harper debacle was ridiculous, but I really don’t have any issue with a lack of other moves. The heart of our young core will be up in 2020/2021, and we need to convert on some free agents at that point. I think most people felt that if we didn’t convert on Machado, then we shouldn’t be making other moves yet. 

[heirdog]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Would love to hear everyone’s thoughts on this.  Do people think this is the best Hahn could do?  Was there any youngish free agents that could solved long term holes?  Any buy low guys you wish we would have grabbed?  What would you have done differently?

Are these serious questions?  Go read the thread with 890 pages for your answer.

Edited March 2, 2019 by heirdog

[BamaDoc]

Not very impressive when looked at.  About the only assets you could have moved were an injured Rodon for pennies on the dollar and Abreu who is fulfilling the "mentor" role.  As you stated there were some deadline deals that aren't included.  We are now moving towards a bit of a 40 man crunch so I would anticipate some 2 for 1 trades and or trades for guys much further away.  Looking back, not signing a ton of players in Roberts year really hurt.  If you look at the Padres top 30 at least 15 are international signings (several signed by others and acquired in trade).  

[Jake]

Besides giving record-breaking free agent contracts to Manny/Bryce, I'm not sure what else you'd expect. We've engaged in a series of low-risk transactions, some with potential reward and others with the limited reward of filling massive holes on the MLB roster for which we had no good internal options.

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

So I believe fathom has brought this up before, but Hahn has added very few pieces over the past two offseasons that could play long-term roles on the club.  Looking at the set of moves below, it’s somewhat shocking how little he’s actually accomplished over 24 months for a rebuilding club (I know there were some deadline deals as well).  There’s handful of under 30 controllable talents, a couple bridge guys, and multiple low ceiling vets.  

Rebuilding provides teams with a unique opportunity to offer playing time to talented, high ceiling players & prospects with question marks and IMO Hahn has completely failed to take advantage of that.  The 2019 offseason in particular is a complete disaster in that regard.  It’s just sad how much playing time & money we’re wasting on guys with little to no upside.  Hahn deserves shit for a lot of things (especially the Machado miss), but the lack of talent accumulation and creative thinking over the past two offseasons deserves a much greater spotlight.

2018 Offseason:

• Claimed OF Palka off waivers from the Twins
• Traded international slot money to the Mariners for RHP Vieira
• Signed free agent C Castillo to 2/$15M deal
• Claimed RHP Jose Ruiz off waives from the Padres
• Traded 2B Jake Peter to the Dodgers (three way trade) for RHP Soria & LHP Avilan
• Traded cash to the Padres for IF Rondon 
• Signed free agent RHP Gonzalez to 1/$4.8M deal

2019 Offseason:

• Traded 3B Yurchak to the Dodgers for LHP Banuelos
• Traded C Narvaez to the Mariners for RHP Colome
• Traded RHP Rosario to the Pirates for RHP Nova
• Traded OF Call to the Indians for 1B Alonso
• Signed free agent C McCann to 1/$2.5M deal
• Signed free agent RHP Herrera to 2/$18M deal
• Signed free agent OF Jay to 1/$4M deal
• Signed free agent RHP Santana to minor league ($4.3M)

This was from the start of the rebuild. They shouldn't be signing but stop gap players. They should wait until they see where they dont have successful prospects, then fill in the gaps.

The caveat being superstars such as Machado or Harper. They should have bought one of them. 

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

To be fair, they were out of ammo to trade for a good prospect. Maybe Rodon turns into that. And most didn’t  want them to spend at all last year. Save the money for Harpchado.

People trusted them and they were burned.

You’re correct the big pieces had been moved and our ability to acquire high-end prospects was limited.  That being said, there are creative ways we could have leveraged our financial flexibility and playing time in hopes of creating additional long-term value. 

Like I don’t get the point of low ceiling veterans like MiGo & Nova.  At least gamble on a starter with some upside so that if things go right you might actually get something back in return.  I hate the idea of handing Engel & Sanchez starting roles again.  Adam is a lost cause and Sanchez will never be more than a quality reserve IF who they’re making him more expensive by treated him as a starter.  I’d much rather find some post hype prospect and give him 600 AB’s at one of those spots.

When I have some downtime I’ll try to find some specific examples of players on the cheap that would have been a better use of our resources than some of the guys we ended up spending money and gave playing time to.

[Chicago White Sox]

45 minutes ago, heirdog said:

Are these serious questions?  Go read the thread with 890 pages for your answer.

Lol...I meant other than Machado & Harper obviously.

[Chicago White Sox]

35 minutes ago, Jake said:

Besides giving record-breaking free agent contracts to Manny/Bryce, I'm not sure what else you'd expect. We've engaged in a series of low-risk transactions, some with potential reward and others with the limited reward of filling massive holes on the MLB roster for which we had no good internal options.

How about instead of spending $5M on MiGo in 2018 & $9M on Nova why not gamble on someone like Mike Mikolas for essentially the same amount?  This year there were multiple arms that got the same amount of money as Nova that provide significantly more upside.

Again, playing time is valuable and why not use those innings on guys who have  some long-term upside and/or might be able to generate a return if traded?

 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

You’re correct the big pieces had been moved and our ability to acquire high-end prospects was limited.  That being said, there are creative ways we could have leveraged our financial flexibility and playing time in hopes of creating additional long-term value. 

Like I don’t get the point of low ceiling veterans like MiGo & Nova.  At least gamble on a starter with some upside so that if things go right you might actually get something back in return.  I hate the idea of handing Engel & Sanchez starting roles again.  Adam is a lost cause and Sanchez will never be more than a quality reserve IF who they’re making him more expensive by treated him as a starter.  I’d much rather find some post hype prospect and give him 600 AB’s at one of those spots.

When I have some downtime I’ll try to find some specific examples of players on the cheap that would have been a better use of our resources than some of the guys we ended up spending money and gave playing time to.

I have no idea how any can consistently say the things about Sanchez. He had a 2.2 WAR as a 24 year old. Is it possible he figures something out to hit for a higher average to compliment his defense and put up 3+ WAR seasons? Absolutely. 

If Sanchez isnt one of the guys you want to give playing time to then what are you talking about? I just don't get it. Maybe something clicks like it did his 2nd full go around in AA and AAA and he starts hitting 40 doubles and hitting 320. Who knows?

Who did they miss out on that other teams were giving away? The viera and rondon deals were exactly what you are asking for. There arent exactly a lot of high ceiling and big talent guys with questions Mark's that are given away.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

56 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

How about instead of spending $5M on MiGo in 2018 & $9M on Nova why not gamble on someone like Mike Mikolas for essentially the same amount?  This year there were multiple arms that got the same amount of money as Nova that provide significantly more upside.

Again, playing time is valuable and why not use those innings on guys who have  some long-term upside and/or might be able to generate a return if traded?

 

Now you're just speaking in hindsight. Mikolas was going on 30 at the time he signed. Not sure how he's any different than Nova at all. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Funny thing is some of the same people who pigeon hole Sanchez career at 26 years old bring up the Sox trading Eduardo Escobar for liriano.

[pcq]

Some of us may consider Yolmay and Escobar more valuable as supersubs. They may suffer from over-exposure. Granted they have over-performed. I would rather watch Rondon play for a while. 

[bmags]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

How about instead of spending $5M on MiGo in 2018 & $9M on Nova why not gamble on someone like Mike Mikolas for essentially the same amount?  This year there were multiple arms that got the same amount of money as Nova that provide significantly more upside.

Again, playing time is valuable and why not use those innings on guys who have  some long-term upside and/or might be able to generate a return if traded?

 

Or pitchers like Pineda who are injured but talented. 

[bmags]

I was fine with Sox making small moves. I expected them to be able to find with their free playing time what other rebuilding teams found, such as Jesus Aguilar, odubel Herrera, or you know, how the freakin dodgers found max muncy.

Thats basically what we are all hoping Palka can be, or else it’s another case of our rebuild underperforming others.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

9 minutes ago, pcq said:

Some of us may consider Yolmay and Escobar more valuable as supersubs. They may suffer from over-exposure. Granted they have over-performed. I would rather watch Rondon play for a while. 

Escobar had the 47th highest WAR in baseball last year for position players at 3.5. You simply can not argue that it would be better for him to play a super utility role unless that role encompasses him playing 145+ games a year.

Sanchez absolutely has not had a season like that, but if he gets his wRC+ to 105 (which is 10 higher than his first full season) he's a 3 WAR player assuming his defense holds true. 

Last year there were only 59 players in baseball who accumulated 3 WAR. If Yolmer can get there for a couple years, he absolutely should be starting. 

[Chicago White Sox]

10 minutes ago, bmags said:

Or pitchers like Pineda who are injured but talented. 

Exactly.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

8 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Exactly.

Pineda signed a 2 year, 10 million dollar deal that didn't even guarantee he'd be healthy enough to pitch all year this year... his innings limit will be around 150 if he's healthy, and he has no second half trade value. What would they be getting out of Michael Pineda? Always hurt, and when healthy he threw home runs like he was paid to do it. 

Edited March 2, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Balta1701]

10 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Escobar had the 47th highest WAR in baseball last year for position players at 3.5. You simply can not argue that it would be better for him to play a super utility role unless that role encompasses him playing 145+ games a year.

Sanchez absolutely has not had a season like that, but if he gets his wRC+ to 105 (which is 10 higher than his first full season) he's a 3 WAR player assuming his defense holds true. 

Last year there were only 59 players in baseball who accumulated 3 WAR. If Yolmer can get there for a couple years, he absolutely should be starting. 

That was also the first and only time in his career Escobar had ever put up numbers like that. Prior to last year, he was a 0-2.6 WAR player - in 2017 he put up 1.7 WAR, in 2016 he put up -0.2. Yolmer put up 1.7 and 2.2 WAR in his age 25 and 26 seasons, Escobar put up 2.6 and 1.9 WAR in his age 25 and 26 seasons. Escobar is a tiny bit more valuable because you can survive longer with him at SS than you can with Yolmer. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Just now, Balta1701 said:

That was also the first and only time in his career Escobar had ever put up numbers like that. Prior to last year, he was a 0-2.6 WAR player - in 2017 he put up 1.7 WAR, in 2016 he put up -0.2. Yolmer put up 1.7 and 2.2 WAR in his age 25 and 26 seasons, Escobar put up 2.6 and 1.9 WAR in his age 25 and 26 seasons. Escobar is a tiny bit more valuable because you can survive longer with him at SS than you can with Yolmer. 

Yeah, it was his best year by far but he averaged about 2 WAR over the 5 year period which puts him right there at about a league average player. That's someone who should start. 

I agree as of today Escobar is more valuable, but it doesn't mean that Yolmer can't figure something out. He's only 26 years old. People want to give at bats to young guys but they want to pigeon hole Sanchez's career. Baseball is a funny game... it can click at 14 or it can click at 29. Sanchez is good enough to play and give a chance to under the assumption that if he shows no improvement he's a utility player, but on this team he absolutely deserves the right to play everyday and see what he can figure out.

[bmags]

3 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Pineda signed a 2 year, 10 million dollar deal that didn't even guarantee he'd be healthy enough to pitch all year this year... his innings limit will be around 150 if he's healthy, and he has no second half trade value. What would they be getting out of Michael Pineda? Always hurt, and when healthy he threw home runs like he was paid to do it. 

They would not have needed to sign him to the same deal, but at the amount it took he’s a nice signing for that arm. Maybe he has a second career in bullpen, maybe he finds a new way to pitch in a different org and with a year off. These are things you can afford in a rebuild and the cost was what we waste money on shitty first baseman anyway.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Just now, bmags said:

They would not have needed to sign him to the same deal, but at the amount it took he’s a nice signing for that arm. Maybe he has a second career in bullpen, maybe he finds a new way to pitch in a different org and with a year off. These are things you can afford in a rebuild and the cost was what we waste money on shitty first baseman anyway.

So what deal would they sign him to?

Why would Pineda go any longer? No way the guarantee would/could have been much higher, and he'd be better off having a team pay him to rehab, and then get the post-injury pitching year out of the way and then hit the market again.

What value would he add to this team? Can't trade him, and no way he was signing a longer deal because no way any team could/should offer him more guaranteed money than he got.