Dick Allen Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 (edited) What the White Sox are doing is within the rules and the smart thing to do. If the players don’t like it, they shouldn’t have agreed to it. They are doing wha is best for the team, just as a player will do anything in their power to do what is best for the player, players can pop off about it all they want, but if there is a loophole in their agreement that they can take advantage of I am sure they would. Yes, it is ridiculous Eloy has to go back to Charlotte. But it is just as ridiculous the Sox give up a year of control for 2 weeks without him during a non contention season. Edited March 14, 2019 by Dick Allen 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 8 minutes ago, ron883 said: And any sane fan would trade our organization for theirs in a heartbeat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: I have zero interest in cheating and stealing to win. Then doubly lucky we traded Loiaza for Contreras when we did...but didn’t one or two of the 2005 team have a PEDs allegation or two, maybe Ozuna, in their background? Aaron Rowand was suspected by some because of the way his body broke down, but his style play ended up being the most destructive factor. We’ve had our share of guys like Myers or Wilfredo Cordero. D’Angelo Jimenez was apparently one of the worst character guys of all-time, fwiw. Cheating off the field vs. PEDs or domestic abuse/violence are slightly different situations, though. Edited March 14, 2019 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 2 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Then doubly lucky we traded Loiaza for Contreras when we did...but didn’t one or two of the 2005 team have a PEDs allegation or two, maybe Ozuna, in their background? Aaron Rowand was suspected by some because of the way his body broke down, but his style play ended up being the most destructive factor. We’ve had our share of guys like Myers or Wilfredo Cordero. D’Angelo Jimenez was apparently one of the worst character guys of all-time, fwiw. Cheating off the field vs. PEDs or domestic abuse/violence are slightly different situations, though. A player cheating is pretty different than an organization literally stealing information from another. Also, there is speculation that the Astros are doing shady things with pitchers as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 11 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: What the White Sox are doing is within the rules and the smart thing to do. If the players don’t like it, they shouldn’t have agreed to it. They are doing wha is best for the team, just as a player will do anything in their power to do what is best for the player, players can pop off about it all they want, but if there is a loophole in their agreement that they can take advantage of I am sure they would. Yes, it is ridiculous Eloy has to go back to Charlotte. But it is just as ridiculous the Sox give up a year of control for 2 weeks without him during a non contention season. For, your first point is very questionable. The white Sox are clearly not acting in good faith - same as the other teams who do it. The loophole is that player evaluation is all subjective. But its not written in the CBA to hold guys down until a day to exploit their service. That's not good faith at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buehrle>Wood Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 The mid 00 White Sox were probably the cleanest team in the league in terms of guys caught or even suspected PED cheaters. Obviously they had some but everyone did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackout Friday Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 The Astros were hacked by a member of the Cardinals FO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 4 minutes ago, Blackout Friday said: The Astros were hacked by a member of the Cardinals FO. LOL this is true. My mistake. Players are still d bags. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackout Friday Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said: LOL this is true. My mistake. Players are still d bags. No big deal. I don’t mind Bregman, but agreed on Verlander. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: For, your first point is very questionable. The white Sox are clearly not acting in good faith - same as the other teams who do it. The loophole is that player evaluation is all subjective. But its not written in the CBA to hold guys down until a day to exploit their service. That's not good faith at all. And the Astros still didn’t even suffer for offering those what turned out to be bad early extensions for Singleton, Grossman, Chris Johnson, maybe Jason Castro....not remembering Matt Dominguez so clearly. Or pressuring the young players to sign them in order to get a promotion to the big league team. This was just FIVE short years ago, and of course they also got Altuve to extend as well. “The deal, which is the first of its kind for a player with zero major league service time, is guaranteed for five years and $10M, according to Passan. It also includes three club options for $2.5M in 2019, $5M in 2020 and $13M in 2020, along with $5M in bonuses and awards that could raise its valye to $35M. As Jon Heyman of CBSSports.com notes, Singleton is giving up a free agent year at $13M, and will still be able to hit the free agent market when he is 30 years old. Singleton, who was originally drafted by the Phillies in the eighth round of the 2009 draft, joined the Astros' organization in the Hunter Pence trade in 2011 and has been widely-regarded as one of the best first base prospects in all of baseball. Before hitting .267 with 14 HR and 43 RBI in 54 games with Triple-A Oklahoma City this season, he was ranked by Baseball America as the 82nd best prospect in the league, ranking among the league's top 100 prospects for the fourth straight season. The Astros are known to be working on long-term extensions with many of their young players, and also have made offers to Robbie Grossman, Matt Dominguez, and rookie George Springer. The offer to Springer, who was regarded as a top prospect before his promotion, would have guaranteed him $7.6M over four years with three team options that could raise its value to $23M, according to Ken Rosenthal of FOXSports.com.That offer is strikingly similar in terms of average annual value to the one that Singleton has agreed to, guaranteeing $1.9M per year on the guaranteed portion of the contract compared to the $2M that Singleton will receive.” https://www.mlbdailydish.com/2014/6/2/5772700/astros-promote-jon-singleton-sign-him-to-long-term-contract-extension Edited March 14, 2019 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 6 minutes ago, Blackout Friday said: The Astros were hacked by a member of the Cardinals FO. Chris Correa, banned for life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 1 minute ago, Blackout Friday said: No big deal. I don’t mind Bregman, but agreed on Verlander. They were accused of cheating in a different way last post season. Got the two confused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 15 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: For, your first point is very questionable. The white Sox are clearly not acting in good faith - same as the other teams who do it. The loophole is that player evaluation is all subjective. But its not written in the CBA to hold guys down until a day to exploit their service. That's not good faith at all. It is not bad faith it is playing by the rules. 2 weeks gets another year of control The players agreed to this. Did they not think it would ever be used? It would be stupid for the White Sox or any other team in their situation not to do what they are doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 (edited) 1 minute ago, Dick Allen said: It is not bad faith it is playing by the rules. 2 weeks gets another year of control The players agreed to this. Did they not think it would ever be used? It would be stupid for the White Sox or any other team in their situation not to do what they are doing. No it isn't dick. It is not honoring the contract in good faith. As I said, evaluation from organizations is subjective so collusion is hard to prove but it certainly is not written in there the way you are claiming. They are clearly exploiting the service time rules which is not acting in good faith. The fact that players cant prove intent absolutely doesnt mean the front office is following the rules. Edited March 14, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turnin' two Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 18 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Chris Correa, banned for life. He is probably breaking wild stallions in Colombia as we speak. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baker Posted March 14, 2019 Share Posted March 14, 2019 It’s been my understanding that the White Sox have been wanting to negotiate a long-term deal with Jimenez since last year. $70-80M figure had been tossed around. Certainly fair enough, and would have obviated the service time issue. Turning down generational wealth is nuts. I think Scott Kingery or Johnny Danks would vouch for that. I don’t think TA regrets his deal. Sure, it cost Sale a lot of money, but his arm could have blown out like Danks. There is a greed element with the players and agents too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 Don't understand the need to sign him this early. Let him have 200 at bats or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSoxFanMike Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 I've been thinking about this all day and I'm torn. On one hand, I'd rather have the Sox spend money on a potential star rather than blowing it all on more mediocre players (like they did this offseason), but the terms Hector mentioned don't make a lot of sense to me. Spending that much just to get one additional year of control seems like a questionable move. I'd have to hope there would be 2 or 3 team options tacked onto the end of it. That would make more sense from the Sox perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcq Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: No it isn't dick. It is not honoring the contract in good faith. As I said, evaluation from organizations is subjective so collusion is hard to prove but it certainly is not written in there the way you are claiming. They are clearly exploiting the service time rules which is not acting in good faith. The fact that players cant prove intent absolutely doesnt mean the front office is following the rules. Good faith and fair dealing is implied in every contract but you cannot base a claim upon that. Intent can be inferred by expected outcomes in my view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wegner Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 Does Eloy have another little brother that we can sign? That seemed to placate him a little when he wasn't called up at the end of last season. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrathofhahn Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 2 hours ago, caulfield12 said: Then doubly lucky we traded Loiaza for Contreras when we did...but didn’t one or two of the 2005 team have a PEDs allegation or two, maybe Ozuna, in their background? Aaron Rowand was suspected by some because of the way his body broke down, but his style play ended up being the most destructive factor. We’ve had our share of guys like Myers or Wilfredo Cordero. D’Angelo Jimenez was apparently one of the worst character guys of all-time, fwiw. Cheating off the field vs. PEDs or domestic abuse/violence are slightly different situations, though. You are forgetting that David Wells for I can't remember his name. Kenny sold damaged goods. As for this proposed extension this would literally be the dumbest move of the offseason. There is zero incentive to do this the Sox already control his service time for 7 years. It should be for 30 million tops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 14 minutes ago, pcq said: Good faith and fair dealing is implied in every contract but you cannot base a claim upon that. Intent can be inferred by expected outcomes in my view. If this was any other labor union in the world, this wouldn't be accepted. Exploiting a workers time to limit their earning potential would be in violation in pretty much any other industry. Yes, you can base a claim on that. This is not my opinion - I am not a labor lawyer and I don't even play one on the internet - but the opinion of my old man who is now retired but was a corporate litigator partner at a major firm for 35 years. I have his email detailing why it's in violation yet for some reason accepted practice because of the industry and the earning power in relation to others. I will see if I can dig it up. FTR, I have no problem with the White Sox doing this as it is the smart decisions and arbitrators have already ruled in favor of teams here... but the arbiters ruling, and language, is nonsense. While it is true that individual talent evaluation vary's from team to team, there are occasional obvious situations where it is not about development. Vlad, Kris Bryant, Eloy and etc. The fact that these teams have been emboldened so much to think this is OK that they call these guys up the day after is what makes the courts decision so terrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, wrathofhahn said: You are forgetting that David Wells for I can't remember his name. Kenny sold damaged goods. As for this proposed extension this would literally be the dumbest move of the offseason. There is zero incentive to do this the Sox already control his service time for 7 years. It should be for 30 million tops. The one thing left this organization has been proven to be to be very sharp, ahead of the market, and good at is these extensions. I'll trust that whatever they put together here is a good one as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 46 minutes ago, wegner said: Does Eloy have another little brother that we can sign? That seemed to placate him a little when he wasn't called up at the end of last season. ? Welcome to months ago bro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Welcome to months ago bro. They keyword being "another." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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