Verlander getting an extension..

[Dick Allen]

2 hours ago, BlackSox13 said:

My comment was about Verlander, not the other players. Machado didn't sign with the Sox, get over it.

His comment was right on. Whether the Sox would have gone after Verlander or actually had a chance, is anyone’s guess, but it is another top line guyout of next years pool, which seems to be draining quickly. The Sox aren’t going to have another opportunity with just the Padres as their competition. They fucked up. Big time. Fewer stars, more big spenders interested means the Sox go back to signing their lowered level guys , hope everything goes right, and maintaining payroll space so they can add at the deadline when they are 10 games out.

Edited March 23, 2019 by Dick Allen

[pcq]

1 hour ago, SonofaRoache said:

We can actually blame Jerry and Hahn. Rick isn't a very good salesman and has been terrible with his free agent signings. I've given Hahn the benefit of the doubt but his results aren't good thus far. 

I would point to the GM role in managing resources. If Machado had to be signed at 300 it was Rick's job to get that authority. It may be that Rick did not want to put his neck on the line for Machado. I think ownership would have approved 300 provided it was accounted for elsewhere in the budget. 

[Balta1701]

11 hours ago, BlackSox13 said:

I don't get the complaints on Verlander. We're there any Sox fans genuinely interested in signing him as a free agent at 37 years old next year?

 

2 hours ago, BlackSox13 said:

My comment was about Verlander, not the other players. Machado didn't sign with the Sox, get over it.

If the White Sox are seriously thinking they're a 2020 contender, they are going to need pitching help, especially now with Dunning no longer being an option. They are not likely to have the assets that they're willing to trade for pitching next year, which means they are going to need FA help, and signing Santana-types and trading for Nova-types does not get them into a position that anyone would regard as competitive.

There's still a lot of young pitching in this organization, and that's before they add anything from the draft this year or get lucky with any breakouts from previous draft years and trades. They may not want to sign a guy to along term deal given the number of arms currently available. If they want to compete, they need pitching help - even with Kopech and Cease you just can't count on the current 5 slots for 2020 to be ready to go and 100% healthy, but they may not want to do a full 7+ year commitment like Cole will get if he has another good year. Bumgarner is an option but you can't like the way his injury history is trending.

An expensive, 2 year contract for a front line starting pitcher could well have made sense for this organization next offseason, if they think they're competitive. Cole and Bumgarner are now the only front line pitching options remaining, and I still think the Yankees will be in a position to go after at least one of them.

So yeah, Verlander was a tentiative fit if the White Sox genuinely believed that their rebuild was nearing a completion point, and a potentially better fit than the other options. This is regardless of any other comments on their moves this offseason.

[Chicago White Sox]

6 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

His comment was right on. Whether the Sox would have gone after Verlander or actually had a chance, is anyone’s guess, but it is another top line guyout of next years pool, which seems to be draining quickly. The Sox aren’t going to have another opportunity with just the Padres as their competition. They fucked up. Big time. Fewer stars, more big spenders interested means the Sox go back to signing their lowered level guys , hope everything goes right, and maintaining payroll space so they can add at the deadline when they are 10 games out.

Hahn has already hinted (on the Red Line Radio podcast) that they could use their money to absorb a contract from another team.  That to me suggests even he knows they fucked up and will have to be very creative (or lucky) to use that “unprecedented financial flexibility” and “economic might” in a productive manner.

Speaking of which, are there any big contracts that rebuilding teams are eager to get rid of?  I’m talking about actual good players that are simply overpaid.  Sucks to even have this discussion, but it might be reality for us unfortunately.

[kitekrazy]

 I guess then you have to put that money in scouting and development. 

[Balta1701]

Just now, Chicago White Sox said:

Hahn has already hinted (on the Red Line Radio podcast) that they could use their money to absorb a contract from another team.  That to me suggests even he knows they fucked up and will have to be very creative (or lucky) to use that “unprecedented financial flexibility” and “economic might” in a productive manner.

Speaking of which, are there any big contracts that rebuilding teams are eager to get rid of?  I’m talking about actual good players that are simply overpaid.  Sucks to even have this discussion, but it might be reality for us unfortunately.

As we're in the Verlander thread, the obvious answer is Zach Greinke, who could fill a comparable role.

[GenericUserName]

4 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Hahn has already hinted (on the Red Line Radio podcast) that they could use their money to absorb a contract from another team.  That to me suggests even he knows they fucked up and will have to be very creative (or lucky) to use that “unprecedented financial flexibility” and “economic might” in a productive manner.

Speaking of which, are there any big contracts that rebuilding teams are eager to get rid of?  I’m talking about actual good players that are simply overpaid.  Sucks to even have this discussion, but it might be reality for us unfortunately.

I'm not going to get my hopes up about us taking on a bad contract. They can talk about it all they want, but at the end of the day I can't see JR signing off on taking on more money for unproven prospects especially when that money won't sell any more tickets or merch. I think its more likely they just use the money on an extension for Abreu and overpaying for a mid-tier free agent next offseason.

[GermanSoxFan]

12 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Pretty much.  Can’t wait until we scoop the 2020 version of Alex Rios and Hahn says “I told you the money would be spent”.

I will always defend the Alex Rios claim. Dude averaged 5.5 war the three seasons before and was having a down year on a perfectly reasonable contract.

[Chicago White Sox]

9 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

As we're in the Verlander thread, the obvious answer is Zach Greinke, who could fill a comparable role.

Good call...that’s probably our guy if he’s still available & good a year from now, especially since I don’t believe we’re on his no trade list.

[Moan4Yoan]

13 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

As we're in the Verlander thread, the obvious answer is Zach Greinke, who could fill a comparable role.

Yep, it has to be a guy who is still effective but the team wants to dump him due to salary concerns and perhaps a desire to rebuild.

i just checked and didn’t realize Greinke is already 35.  Yikes.

Edited March 23, 2019 by Harper2Sox

[Chicago White Sox]

1 minute ago, GermanSoxFan said:

I will always defend the Alex Rios claim. Dude averaged 5.5 war the three seasons before and was having a down year on a perfectly reasonable contract.

I’m not hating on the Rios claim because it made some sense at the time based on our current situation back then, but I’d be awfully upset if that’s the type of move we make when we have a young core and significant payroll flexibility for the foreseeable future.

[BlackSox13]

2 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

Don't blame Hahn. He can only work with what Uncle Jerry allows him to work with. We know where the blame lies. This is 100% on Uncle Jerry. 

The Sox are screwed until there is new ownership, whenever or however that happens. Until then, we should all realize the Sox are going to operate like the Pirates and hope for the best. We have zero control over it, so make the best of a shitty situation. I just wish that because the Sox were going to operate like a small market team they'd do it like the A's and Rays do. Nope, instead we get Pirates. 

Yep, funny how people forget JR was involved in the discussions. That doesn't mean Hahn is completely innocent but JR is the bankroll and has the final say.

Personally, I feel the Sox ownership and front office underestimated the Padres interest and willingness to pony up the money.

That said, I've moved on from it because no amount of complaining will change a thing. 

[Swingandalongonetoleft]

25 minutes ago, pcq said:

I would point to the GM role in managing resources. If Machado had to be signed at 300 it was Rick's job to get that authority. It may be that Rick did not want to put his neck on the line for Machado. I think ownership would have approved 300 provided it was accounted for elsewhere in the budget. 

Yep, and Hahn threw money that should have gone toward a Machado/Harper signing at a bunch of junk, instead. 

Edited March 23, 2019 by Swingandalongonetoleft

[Moan4Yoan]

5 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I’m not hating on the Rios claim because it made some sense at the time based on our current situation back then, but I’d be awfully upset if that’s the type of move we make when we have a young core and significant payroll flexibility for the foreseeable future.

Yep, it was a good move without the hindsight.  He was a 28 year old outfielder with multiple tools and was having a down season but he was really good the prior three seasons.

Edited March 23, 2019 by Harper2Sox

[Chicago White Sox]

6 minutes ago, GenericUserName said:

I'm not going to get my hopes up about us taking on a bad contract. They can talk about it all they want, but at the end of the day I can't see JR signing off on taking on more money for unproven prospects especially when that money won't sell any more tickets or merch. I think its more likely they just use the money on an extension for Abreu and overpaying for a mid-tier free agent next offseason.

I’m not suggesting a true bad contract, but something like the Peavy trade where we got a guy who was overpaid with some question marks but still very talented and fairly productive.  Greinke would fit the bill of what I’m suggesting.

[Moan4Yoan]

5 minutes ago, Swingandalongonetoleft said:

Hahn threw money that could have gone toward a Machado signing at piles of garbage. 

Yep.  He was $50 million short on Machado and spent $50 million this offseason on mediocrity.  I’d rather have signed Machado and a single starting pitcher than what Hahn did this offseason.

Edited March 23, 2019 by Harper2Sox

[Moan4Yoan]

11 minutes ago, BlackSox13 said:

Yep, funny how people forget JR was involved in the discussions. That doesn't mean Hahn is completely innocent but JR is the bankroll and has the final say.

Personally, I feel the Sox ownership and front office underestimated the Padres interest and willingness to pony up the money.

That said, I've moved on from it because no amount of complaining will change a thing. 

The Sox underestimated the player’s desire to get his market value.  I remember news circulating that Machado wanted $300 million guaranteed, period.  Some team was going to pony up the money eventually.  The Sox sat on their hands with their $250 million guaranteed offer and didn’t budge because they wanted to sign a premier talent at their own team friendly price.  It’s no surprise they whiffed and embarrassed themselves.

Edited March 23, 2019 by Harper2Sox

[Balta1701]

8 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I’m not suggesting a true bad contract, but something like the Peavy trade where we got a guy who was overpaid with some question marks but still very talented and fairly productive.  Greinke would fit the bill of what I’m suggesting.

For reference, if you trade for Greinke after 2019, he will have 2 years and $70 million remaining.

It would really suck to have to trade something of value for Greinke for the right to pay him more than Verlander got. And a team with a payroll as low as the white Sox shouldn’t be sending extra players along to make Arizona pick up money.

In general though the fit is ok.

[wegner]

2 hours ago, Harper2Sox said:

This is true.  While one could argue his trades have been good, minus the worst of all for Shields, his free agent signings have been pretty awful.  He likes to dumpster dive just like Kenny.

Just wait til next year, when someone ranks Alex Call as a top 10 prospect...I don't expect it but I didn't expect the guy thrown into the Shields trade rocketing up the prospect charts either

[Jake]

What a fantastic accomplishment for Verlander. 5-ish years ago his contract was widely seen as an albatross that would prevent the Tigers from competing and artificially extend his career as someone would be trying to extract some tiny bit of value out him. Instead he's been worth every penny and is just putting the whipped cream on top of a hall of fame career.

[Chicago White Sox]

Not sure where to post this, but Garfein asked Hahn on his podcast that just came out how all these extensions would affect their plans/ability to add impact talent via free agency.  Hahn basically said that part of the rebuild was to build up such a critical mass of talent that there would be enough excess to be used as trade assets to fill holes and if the answers aren’t available in free agency then they’ll look to go the trade route.  While there is nothing technically wrong with what he said, he did not emit much confidence that we’ll be adding impact talent via free agency in the near future and that puts the rebuild in a very tough spot given our recent struggles in drafting and player development.  Without supplementing via free agency, it’s really hard to see us having the excess talent needed to pull off a major trade.

[OneDog847]

4 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Not sure where to post this, but Garfein asked Hahn on his podcast that just came out how all these extensions would affect their plans/ability to add impact talent via free agency.  Hahn basically said that part of the rebuild was to build up such a critical mass of talent that there would be enough excess to be used as trade assets to fill holes and if the answers aren’t available in free agency then they’ll look to go the trade route.  While there is nothing technically wrong with what he said, he did not emit much confidence that we’ll be adding impact talent via free agency in the near future and that puts the rebuild in a very tough spot given our recent struggles in drafting and player development.  Without supplementing via free agency, it’s really hard to see us having the excess talent needed to pull off a major trade.

If this is truly the plan then we should expect another 2-3 years of full on tanking. The Sox will need to continue to stock the farm with top 5 draft picks. Hopefully they can flip Rodon, Herrera, and Colome for some useful pieces as well. 

[Jack Parkman]

9 minutes ago, OneDog847 said:

If this is truly the plan then we should expect another 2-3 years of full on tanking. The Sox will need to continue to stock the farm with top 5 draft picks. Hopefully they can flip Rodon, Herrera, and Colome for some useful pieces as well. 

That shouldn't happen. If Moncada and Lopez become what we want them to be, they only have 4 seasons of control left after this year. I would hope there is more urgency than that. 

[OneDog847]

26 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

That shouldn't happen. If Moncada and Lopez become what we want them to be, they only have 4 seasons of control left after this year. I would hope there is more urgency than that. 

This is only year 3 of the rebuild. Houston spent close to 6 years tanking and building up the farm. Kansas City's rebuild took almost 9 years.

If the Sox are too frugal and/or risk adverse to sign impact talent via FA then they will have to either trade for it or grow it in house. 

Moncada and Lopez can be traded in 4 years or sooner if needed. 

Why would there be more urgency? JR has guaranteed profits even if 5K people show up every night. KW and Hahn have jobs for life as long as they remain yes men.  

[Balta1701]

14 minutes ago, OneDog847 said:

This is only year 3 of the rebuild. Houston spent close to 6 years tanking and building up the farm. Kansas City's rebuild took almost 9 years.

If the Sox are too frugal and/or risk adverse to sign impact talent via FA then they will have to either trade for it or grow it in house. 

Moncada and Lopez can be traded in 4 years or sooner if needed. 

Why would there be more urgency? JR has guaranteed profits even if 5K people show up every night. KW and Hahn have jobs for life as long as they remain yes men.  

Ironically, when you said the Astros spent 6 years tanking, you just said they were tanking during seasons that they did exactly what the 2015 and 2016 white sox did. In 2009 and 2010 they were adding players, including Brett Myers, they had top 10 and top 15 payrolls, they held onto veterans like Carlos Lee and Lance  Berkman that they could have traded. They followed that up with 3 seasons at the absolute bottom, but if you are counting 2009 and 2010 as part of their rebuild, then the White Sox in 2019 are in year 7 of rebuilding by the same standard.