Sox interested in Yolbert Sanchez

[bmags]

I would have loved the sox to have signed 7-8 "tatis's", i.e. 700k+ guys this draft. That we have a 2.5 million hole makes me that instead of loading up on some top 30 guys after two years off, we are going all in on a mature, limited guy just because it's more likely production. 

[Jack Parkman]

Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Fangraphs has literally done a piece on how the White Sox focused on high ceiling, low floor guys, in this rebuild. But OK bud. I guess I couldn't be more wrong.

When people say things like "you couldn't be more wrong" and then don't tell you why, it's kind of a pointless post. 

I was talking about the draft, not the guys they acquired via trade. I hope you read my edit. I actually commend them for what they did in trades because it was completely out of character. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

4 minutes ago, bmags said:

The white sox overarching philosophy has been college over high school, which is very much about higher floor certainty. 

In the KW and then hahn era, they have veered very safe players save for three drafts: Tim Anderson, Courtney Hawkins and Kris Honel. I think you could argue sale, but at the least people knew he would be a immediate bullpen contributor.

Keenyn Walker/Jared Mitchell are examples of high floor to me. College athletes with plus run and fielding that if they can just learn to hit a little get you a backup outfielder.

Kyle Mccullugh, Lance Broadway. Royce Ring. Rodon, Fulmer, Burdi. All pitchers that were expected to move up quickly and at least have big league futures in bullpen (more for Rodon). Hugely limited ceilings for mccullough and Broadway.

Beckham, Burger, Madrigal, Collins, Fields, college producing bats with mature approaches and limited bodies.

I'm glad they have moncada, but he was already near the bigs. That they had to trade elite, cost controlled major league talent to finally get the types of players that Moncada, Cease, Kopech are should have been a huge sign of the types of risks they should be taking in the draft.

They have not taken them still. Burdi is the classic example. Finally they had 3 top 50 picks where they could bundle up some money for a high schooler in comp round 1, they pay slot for a college reliever missing on players like Trammel and Kieboom. 

College doesn't mean they attack high floor, low ceiling guys. This entire rebuild has been predicated on high ceiling, low floor guys. I honestly have no idea how anyone could argue otherwise.

Moncada, Kopech, Cease, Giolito, Lopez, Rutherford, Robert - every single one of those guys were more tools and hype than production at the minor league level. They all had substantial bust risk attached to them because they were rated highly based on their tools, not their production.

As I said, Fangraphs has written multiple pieces on this - regarding the White Sox rebuild direction, and how risky their top elite prospects were compared to other teams who have done the same thing. 

Edited March 26, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Y2Jimmy0]

2 minutes ago, bmags said:

The white sox overarching philosophy has been college over high school, which is very much about higher floor certainty. 

In the KW and then hahn era, they have veered very safe players save for three drafts: Tim Anderson, Courtney Hawkins and Kris Honel. I think you could argue sale, but at the least people knew he would be a immediate bullpen contributor.

Keenyn Walker/Jared Mitchell are examples of high floor to me. College athletes with plus run and fielding that if they can just learn to hit a little get you a backup outfielder.

Kyle Mccullugh, Lance Broadway. Royce Ring. Rodon, Fulmer, Burdi. All pitchers that were expected to move up quickly and at least have big league futures in bullpen (more for Rodon). Hugely limited ceilings for mccullough and Broadway.

Beckham, Burger, Madrigal, Collins, Fields, college producing bats with mature approaches and limited bodies.

I'm glad they have moncada, but he was already near the bigs. That they had to trade elite, cost controlled major league talent to finally get the types of players that Moncada, Cease, Kopech are should have been a huge sign of the types of risks they should be taking in the draft.

They have not taken them still. Burdi is the classic example. Finally they had 3 top 50 picks where they could bundle up some money for a high schooler in comp round 1, they pay slot for a college reliever missing on players like Trammel and Kieboom. 

I place the Walker/Mitchell picks and that generally philosophy squarely on Reinsdorf. The Sox draft record was terrible under Kenny Williams. Much of that is that Kenny loved athletes. You know who else preached this? John Scheurholtz. The problem is that the athletes Reinsdorf was willing to spend on weren't very good. People won't disagree with me on this and their draft record speaks for itself. But Reinsdorf's reluctance to spend on the draft was always the biggest issue. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I have yet to talk about his ranking.  I am more interested in his skill set.

You've never seen him play. You have no idea where his skill set is headed. At this point, you're just complaining to complain.

[Jack Parkman]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

College doesn't mean they attack high floor, low ceiling guys. This entire rebuild has been predicated on high ceiling, low floor guys. I honestly have no idea how anyone could argue otherwise.

Moncada, Kopech, Cease, Giolito, Lopez, Rutherford - every single one of those guys were more tools and hype than production at the minor league level. They all had substantial bust risk attached to them because they were rated highly based on their tools, not their production.

As I said, Fangraphs has written multiple pieces on this - regarding the White Sox rebuild direction, and how risky their top elite prospects were compared to other teams who have done the same thing. 

Fulmer, Collins, Burdi and Madrigal all fit their draft MO. They are the definition of low ceiling high floor guys, at the time of their draft. It also fits their MO of drafting those type of players and having their ceiling end up being so low they can't make it to the bigs. 

Fulmer was supposed to be a starter that if he couldn't start would end up being a decent reliever

Collins was supposed to be an advanced college bat. He had questions sticking behind the plate but high OBP. with some contact issues It looks like if he doesn't catch, he's not an MLB player

Burdi was supposed to be a quick moving reliever. Surprise! he got hurt

Madrigal can hit but he has no power. A complete waste of a top 5 pick. 

 

Edited March 26, 2019 by Jack Parkman

[southsider2k5]

5 minutes ago, bmags said:

I would have loved the sox to have signed 7-8 "tatis's", i.e. 700k+ guys this draft. That we have a 2.5 million hole makes me that instead of loading up on some top 30 guys after two years off, we are going all in on a mature, limited guy just because it's more likely production. 

The 1st line here is everything.  Instead we are looking at a D first SS to headline the class.

[southsider2k5]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

You've never seen him play. You have no idea where his skill set is headed. At this point, you're just complaining to complain.

I am going off of scouting reports.  You are going off of what? Contrarianism? Arguementativeness? Great work.

[bmags]

1 minute ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

I place the Walker/Mitchell picks and that generally philosophy squarely on Reinsdorf. The Sox draft record was terrible under Kenny Williams. Much of that is that Kenny loved athletes. You know who else preached this? John Scheurholtz. The problem is that the athletes Reinsdorf was willing to spend on weren't very good. People won't disagree with me on this and their draft record speaks for itself. But Reinsdorf's reluctance to spend on the draft was always the biggest issue. 

This is a big part of the story, absolutely (I would say even more so with Broadway, passing on Poreda), and you can see the shift get better starting with the CBA change.

But it goes to the idea with them of if you are going to be limited, you have to get some production. Tons of mature players that could get you some backend depth with the core that was in majors. 

I think there was zero chance they could ask jerry to pay a tax to just sign twenty 16 year olds, but to go over for an 18 year old from cuba that has played professionally and shown stateside? Much easier to do.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

4 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I was talking about the draft, not the guys they acquired via trade. I hope you read my edit. I actually commend them for what they did in trades because it was completely out of character. 

There was nothing safe about:

Madrigal - Definitely fits the bill. Very high floor. 

Collins - Collins didn't have a high floor if he couldn't stick at catcher. He had a high ceiling because HE COULD stick at catcher. He was a risk there.

Fulmer - Certainly didn't have a high floor as a starter - most thought he was a risk at that pick because of his delivery. 

Tim Anderson - the definition of high ceiling, very low floor, when drafted. 

Rodon - Pretty consensus, I'd say he had a very high floor but there also wasn't anyone they could have drafted with a higher ceiling.

Courtney Hawkins - All tools, no productions. Definition of high ceiling terrible floor.

Chris Sale - Risky pick, many thought he wouldn't stick as a starter. In the eyes of scouts, Chris Sale did not have a high floor as a starter. 

Jared Mitchell - The poster boy example for why college does not equal safer. He was about as high ceiling low floor as you get from a prospect. 

Beckham - He was a high floor guy, hence why he's still around.

Clearly, in 2009 the White Sox changed their approach. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

The 1st line here is everything.  Instead we are looking at a D first SS to headline the class.

Who says they don't give him 2 million and sign 10 other guys between 250-750?

[bmags]

5 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

College doesn't mean they attack high floor, low ceiling guys. This entire rebuild has been predicated on high ceiling, low floor guys. I honestly have no idea how anyone could argue otherwise.

Moncada, Kopech, Cease, Giolito, Lopez, Rutherford, Robert - every single one of those guys were more tools and hype than production at the minor league level. They all had substantial bust risk attached to them because they were rated highly based on their tools, not their production.

As I said, Fangraphs has written multiple pieces on this - regarding the White Sox rebuild direction, and how risky their top elite prospects were compared to other teams who have done the same thing. 

I am talking about their organic collection of talent in the draft and international free agency over twenty years.

It's great we acquired some high ceiling talent (they HAD to), but we had to give up established mlb stars to do so, because they failed to create that themselves at a level remotely keeping up with the other mlb teams in the league. 

 

[Jack Parkman]

3 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

There was nothing safe about:

Madrigal - Definitely fits the bill. Very high floor. 

Collins - Collins didn't have a high floor if he couldn't stick at catcher. He had a high ceiling because HE COULD stick at catcher. He was a risk there.

Fulmer - Certainly didn't have a high floor as a starter - most thought he was a risk at that pick because of his delivery. 

Tim Anderson - the definition of high ceiling, very low floor, when drafted. 

Rodon - Pretty consensus, I'd say he had a very high floor but there also wasn't anyone they could have drafted with a higher ceiling.

Courtney Hawkins - All tools, no productions. Definition of high ceiling terrible floor.

Chris Sale - Risky pick, many thought he wouldn't stick as a starter. In the eyes of scouts, Chris Sale did not have a high floor as a starter. 

Jared Mitchell - The poster boy example for why college does not equal safer. He was about as high ceiling low floor as you get from a prospect. 

Beckham - He was a high floor guy, hence why he's still around.

Clearly, in 2009 the White Sox changed their approach. 

The only guys I'll give you on that list are Anderson and Hawkins. I completely disagree with you on Fulmer/Collins. Fulmer was safe because he was supposed to have a "backup plan" as a reliever. Collins was supposed to be a better hitter than he ended up being. Mitchell probably would have ended up ok if he didn't destroy his leg a couple times. He ended up losing too much development time due to injury. 

Edited March 26, 2019 by Jack Parkman

[bmags]

Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Who says they don't give him 2 million and sign 10 other guys between 250-750?

They can sign 10 guys for "250" now, it's not the pool that we were hoping to get after two years on the sidelines.

[Nardiwashere]

3 minutes ago, bmags said:

I am talking about their organic collection of talent in the draft and international free agency over twenty years.

It's great we acquired some high ceiling talent (they HAD to), but we had to give up established mlb stars to do so, because they failed to create that themselves at a level remotely keeping up with the other mlb teams in the league. 

 

Not sure I understand what you mean by "organic talent" but I think Moncada, Giolito, Kopech, etc. illustrate the Sox current philosophy than drafting Royce Ring in 2001.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Nardiwashere

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

7 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Fulmer, Collins, Burdi and Madrigal all fit their draft MO. They are the definition of low ceiling high floor guys, at the time of their draft. It also fits their MO of drafting those type of players and having their ceiling end up being so low they can't make it to the bigs. 

Fulmer was supposed to be a starter that if he couldn't start would end up being a decent reliever

Collins was supposed to be an advanced college bat. He had questions sticking behind the plate but high OBP. with some contact issues It looks like if he doesn't catch, he's not an MLB player

Burdi was supposed to be a quick moving reliever. Surprise! he got hurt

Madrigal can hit but he has no power. A complete waste of a top 5 pick. 

 

You literally call Collins a high floor guy and then say... if he doesn't catch, he's not an MLB player. He was a big risk to stick at catcher when they drafted him, so there was nothing high floor about him. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

3 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

The only guys I'll give you on that list are Anderson and Hawkins. I completely disagree with you on Fulmer/Collins. Fulmer was safe because he was supposed to have a "backup plan" as a reliever. Collins was supposed to be a better hitter than he ended up being. 

Jared Mitchell wasn't even GOOD at LSU. I have no idea how you say he wasn't a high ceiling guy. Laughable really.

There's nothing safe about getting a reliever with a top 8 pick. There was huge risk attached to Fulmer and Sale. Arguing otherwise is just pointless. 

[bmags]

4 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

There was nothing safe about:

Madrigal - Definitely fits the bill. Very high floor. 

Collins - Collins didn't have a high floor if he couldn't stick at catcher. He had a high ceiling because HE COULD stick at catcher. He was a risk there.

Fulmer - Certainly didn't have a high floor as a starter - most thought he was a risk at that pick because of his delivery. 

Tim Anderson - the definition of high ceiling, very low floor, when drafted. 

Rodon - Pretty consensus, I'd say he had a very high floor but there also wasn't anyone they could have drafted with a higher ceiling.

Courtney Hawkins - All tools, no productions. Definition of high ceiling terrible floor.

Chris Sale - Risky pick, many thought he wouldn't stick as a starter. In the eyes of scouts, Chris Sale did not have a high floor as a starter. 

Jared Mitchell - The poster boy example for why college does not equal safer. He was about as high ceiling low floor as you get from a prospect. 

Beckham - He was a high floor guy, hence why he's still around.

Clearly, in 2009 the White Sox changed their approach. 

Collins had a mature plate approach that made him safe because people said he had an mlb bat that could play as a first baseman.

Do me a favor, take the 34 players drafted in the 2016 mlb draft first and comp rounds and rank them from highest floor to lowest floor then tell me that the white sox drafted a high ceiling, low floor player.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 minute ago, bmags said:

Collins had a mature plate approach that made him safe because people said he had an mlb bat that could play as a first baseman.

Do me a favor, take the 34 players drafted in the 2016 mlb draft first and comp rounds and rank them from highest floor to lowest floor then tell me that the white sox drafted a high ceiling, low floor player.

Collins was not drafted to be a 1st baseman, and if he was he wouldn't have been drafted in the first round. Hence, the risk with the pick, and hence the shooting for the high ceiling. 

[bmags]

2 minutes ago, Nardiwashere said:

Not sure I understand what you mean by "organic talent" but I think Moncada, Giolito, Kopech, etc. illustrate the Sox current philosophy than drafting Royce Ring in 2001.

They drafted zack burdi in 2016. They have overwhelmingly drafted out of college the last 5 years.

[SoxAce]

7 minutes ago, bmags said:

I am talking about their organic collection of talent in the draft and international free agency over twenty years.

 

I was literally about to say that you mentioned that in your post but it "somehow" was missed. But I'm not surprised considering the source. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Just now, bmags said:

They drafted zack burdi in 2016. They have overwhelmingly drafted out of college the last 5 years.

They draft out of college more because the guy in charge of all of this has a college background. They aren't' drafting safe college players every year. They take a lot of risks with college guys. 

[bmags]

Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Collins was not drafted to be a 1st baseman, and if he was he wouldn't have been drafted in the first round. Hence, the risk with the pick, and hence the shooting for the high ceiling. 

That he had a high likelihood of still finding time in the majors based off his bat and approach is what high floor means. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

10 minutes ago, bmags said:

I am talking about their organic collection of talent in the draft and international free agency over twenty years.

It's great we acquired some high ceiling talent (they HAD to), but we had to give up established mlb stars to do so, because they failed to create that themselves at a level remotely keeping up with the other mlb teams in the league. 

 

And I'm talking about an organizational philosophy TODAY and with this rebuild and modern organization; not picks from 15 years ago. It's quite obvious the Sox have been targeting guys with higher ceilings for about 10 years now.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 minutes ago, SoxAce said:

I was literally about to say that you mentioned that in your post but it "somehow" was missed. But I'm not surprised considering the source. 

The source? OK.

I didn't skim over anything. I pointed out the Sox current philosophy for about 7-10 years now.. I don't care about 20 years ago. Sorry.