Sox interested in Yolbert Sanchez

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

17 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

I am going off of scouting reports.  You are going off of what? Contrarianism? Arguementativeness? Great work.

No, I'm going off a guy with a 45/45/55/55/65 skill set. That's the scouting report. The same scouting report you said has him with only 1 plus tool when there are 3. So clearly you're not going off scouting reports... and scouting reports had Tatis at 45/40/55/50/50. How did that work out? 

Ironic to see the guy who said he doesn't want a guy with 1 tool say he was going off scouting reports that showed 3 + and 2 slightly below average.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[bmags]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

And I'm talking about an organizational philosophy TODAY and with this rebuild and modern organization; not picks from 15 years ago. It's quite obvious the Sox have been targeting guys with higher ceilings for about 10 years now.

Again, you can only claim they are higher ceiling when you view them in isolation and pretend other organizations and draftees do not exist. 

The white sox target high ceiling guys? Okay, in comparison to what organization? Where would you rank them in aggressively pursuing these incredibly high ceiling, low floor players.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Here you go:

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/the-white-sox-big-bets-on-risk/

Soxtalk says the Sox don't target high ceiling, low floor guys though. Weird. You have to consider the source though, I guess...

[SoxAce]

25 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I was talking about the draft, not the guys they acquired via trade. I hope you read my edit. I actually commend them for what they did in trades because it was completely out of character. 

So was bmags. Funny. But I'll say their philosophy has definitely changed under Hostetler focusing more on OBP oriented hitters (Collins, Burger, Walker, etc). High floor guys.

[Nardiwashere]

Isn’t the knock on the Sox system that they have a lot of upper end guys and not as much depth of guys who project to be mlb regulars?

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 minutes ago, bmags said:

Again, you can only claim they are higher ceiling when you view them in isolation and pretend other organizations and draftees do not exist. 

The white sox target high ceiling guys? Okay, in comparison to what organization? Where would you rank them in aggressively pursuing these incredibly high ceiling, low floor players.

No, I can claim their high ceiling because that's what the team targeted.  

In comparison to other rebuilding organizations, the Sox took a lot more risk with their player acquisitions. I posted one link from a source that isn't me, if that'll make it more "valid" to you.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Just now, Nardiwashere said:

Isn’t the knock on the Sox system that they have a lot of upper end guys and not as much depth of guys who project to be mlb regulars?

Yes, but these guys will tell you the Sox were drafting high floor guys... even though the only prospect they've had reach the majors from those draft classes and contribute is Tim Anderson who was the definition of high floor, low ceiling. Weird that they draft all these high floor guys and they never reach the big leagues... it's almost like, they weren't high floor guys.

[bmags]

Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

No, I can claim their high ceiling because that's what the team targeted.  

In comparison to other rebuilding organizations, the Sox took a lot more risk with their player acquisitions. I posted one link from a source that isn't me, if that'll make it more "valid" to you.

Yes, the fangraphs article that Cameron wrote around their trade acquisitions. 

In discussing draft and international free agents, you can only claim they are targeting high ceiling players in the abstract. Indeed, I don't think we are dead last, I do think we are more aggressive than the Royals and Orioles. Huzzah.

[ron883]

Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Yes, but these guys will tell you the Sox were drafting high floor guys... even though the only prospect they've had reach the majors from those draft classes and contribute is Tim Anderson who was the definition of high floor, low ceiling. Weird that they draft all these high floor guys and they never reach the big leagues... it's almost like, they weren't high floor guys.

Back to work, Hahn. No need to defend your track record any further bud. 

[bmags]

1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Yes, but these guys will tell you the Sox were drafting high floor guys... even though the only prospect they've had reach the majors from those draft classes and contribute is Tim Anderson who was the definition of high floor, low ceiling. Weird that they draft all these high floor guys and they never reach the big leagues... it's almost like, they weren't high floor guys.

Carlos Rodon is in the big leagues

Carson Fulmer has been in the bullpen

Burdi was on verge of big leagues before TJS

Collins is in AAA three years later (and practicing at 1b, hmm!?)

Our 2017 draft pick tore his achilles twice and that's quite a fast turnaround regardless.

 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 minutes ago, SoxAce said:

So was bmags. Funny. But I'll say their philosophy has definitely changed under Hostetler focusing more on OBP oriented hitters (Collins, Burger, Walker, etc). High floor guys.

What's funny is that's not what I said to start this conversation, yet I'm somehow the one who didn't read. Odd stuff.

Let's break this down for you since you seem to be struggling with the facts of what happened.

This thread is about signing an international free agent prospect. Not the draft. Here is how this went down:

SS2k said he was disappointed that with 2 years to prepare, the Sox big take home was a limited defensive wizard... 

I responded with the following: 

"You never know how any of these guys will pan out. The Sox have a history of always going high ceiling low floor over high floor, lower ceiling players. That leads to a lot of busts. 

Sometimes, it's nice to maybe lock up a guy with a higher floor and a perceived lower ceiling. Those guys sometimes becomes superstars too - see Jose Ramirez. Baseball is a tricky game."

That has clearly been the organizational philosophy for about a decade.  

Bmags responded to my post with: 

"In what world is this true?"

So far, absolutely NOTHING about drafting was said. So the whole, Ray Ray doesn't read is nonsense. The entire formulation of this discussions delved from a comment made about a limited prospect signing with the Sox over others... and I said it's a breath of fresh air for the Sox to go after a high ceiling guy for once. BMags says since when? Then I point out about 100 players the Sox have acquired that were high ceiling, low floor with at on of risk. 

AFter all of that, he starts bringing up drafts from 15 years ago to support his point.

So, no... I'm not the one who wasn't reading or misunderstood.

[southsider2k5]

12 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

No, I'm going off a guy with a 45/45/55/55/65 skill set. That's the scouting report. The same scouting report you said has him with only 1 plus tool when there are 3. So clearly you're not going off scouting reports... and scouting reports had Tatis at 45/40/55/50/50. How did that work out? 

Ironic to see the guy who said he doesn't want a guy with 1 tool say he was going off scouting reports that showed 3 + and 2 slightly below average.

Good. So now you agree that we seem to be willing to spend half our money on a guy who can't hit.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

5 minutes ago, bmags said:

Yes, the fangraphs article that Cameron wrote around their trade acquisitions. 

In discussing draft and international free agents, you can only claim they are targeting high ceiling players in the abstract. Indeed, I don't think we are dead last, I do think we are more aggressive than the Royals and Orioles. Huzzah.

Internationally their philosophy is very clearly the same - very toolsy, but less production so far. I'm honestly not sure how you can continue to argue this but OK.

The Sox took more risks with high ceiling talent than any other rebuild prior to them. Those are the facts. More than the Cubs and the Astros and etc. Carry on though.

[bmags]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

What's funny is that's not what I said to start this conversation, yet I'm somehow the one who didn't read. Odd stuff.

Let's break this down for you since you seem to be struggling with the facts of what happened.

This thread is about signing an international free agent prospect. Not the draft. Here is how this went down:

SS2k said he was disappointed that with 2 years to prepare, the Sox big take home was a limited defensive wizard... 

I responded with the following: 

"You never know how any of these guys will pan out. The Sox have a history of always going high ceiling low floor over high floor, lower ceiling players. That leads to a lot of busts. 

Sometimes, it's nice to maybe lock up a guy with a higher floor and a perceived lower ceiling. Those guys sometimes becomes superstars too - see Jose Ramirez. Baseball is a tricky game."

That has clearly been the organizational philosophy for about a decade.  

Bmags responded to my post with: 

"In what world is this true?"

So far, absolutely NOTHING about drafting was said. So the whole, Ray Ray doesn't read is nonsense. The entire formulation of this discussions delved from a comment made about a limited prospect signing with the Sox over others... and I said it's a breath of fresh air for the Sox to go after a high ceiling guy for once. BMags says since when? Then I point out about 100 players the Sox have acquired that were high ceiling, low floor with at on of risk. 

AFter all of that, he starts bringing up drafts from 15 years ago to support his point.

So, no... I'm not the one who wasn't reading or misunderstood.

Weird. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

3 minutes ago, bmags said:

Carlos Rodon is in the big leagues

Carson Fulmer has been in the bullpen

Burdi was on verge of big leagues before TJS

Collins is in AAA three years later (and practicing at 1b, hmm!?)

Our 2017 draft pick tore his achilles twice and that's quite a fast turnaround regardless.

 

On the verge lol.

Collins is in AAA 3 years after he was drafted as a "college ready hitter" according to you. That somehow proves your point? I'd disagree.

Fulmer did not earn a trip to the big leagues, and he certainly hasn't been productive there.

Rodon fit the bill of high ceiling and high floor. That doesn't happen often.

[Jack Parkman]

6 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

No, I can claim their high ceiling because that's what the team targeted.  

In comparison to other rebuilding organizations, the Sox took a lot more risk with their player acquisitions. I posted one link from a source that isn't me, if that'll make it more "valid" to you.

They're not high ceiling. High ceiling means that if a lot goes right they're top 20 prospects in the game. None of those guys were ever that good. 

High floor means they still have an outside shot of being a MLB player even if they don't hit their intended ability. That is why both Collins and Fulmer were high floor picks. Both were unlikely to start/catch, but they were still supposed to have an outside shot at sticking as a 1B/RP. They were, in fact, low ceiling/high floor picks that were somewhat disguised as high ceiling picks. If you take a college reliever in the 1st round that is also 100% a low ceiling pick. You do that, you better be damn sure the guy stays healthy and reaches the majors quickly. 

[SoxAce]

2 minutes ago, bmags said:

Weird. 

Lol I just didn't even bother anymore. But I applaud SS for actually discussing the actual topic in this thread which was about the prospect (Sanchez) before it got changed. 

Edited March 26, 2019 by SoxAce

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 minute ago, bmags said:

Weird. 

Oh, sorry.. so they occasionally drafted a guy that was safer. I over spoke when I said every -  I should have said the vast majority. My bad. 

On the other hand, you have claimed this wasn't their philosophy at all for the rebuild. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

3 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

They're not high ceiling. High ceiling means that if a lot goes right they're top 20 prospects in the game. None of those guys were ever that good. 

High floor means they still have an outside shot of being a MLB player even if they don't hit their intended ability. That is why both Collins and Fulmer were high floor picks. Both were unlikely to start/catch, but they were still supposed to have an outside shot at sticking as a 1B/RP. They were, in fact, low ceiling/high floor picks that were somewhat disguised as high ceiling picks. If you take a college reliever in the 1st round that is also 100% a low ceiling pick. You do that, you better be damn sure the guy stays healthy and reaches the majors quickly. 

what?

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

6 minutes ago, SoxAce said:

Lol I just didn't even bother anymore. But I applaud SS for actually discussing the actual topic in this thread which was about the prospect (Sanchez) before it got changed. 

Don't bother? My goodness, you don't bother because you can't present a reasonable or rational case for your side of the discussion. I don't get personal; I post what has happened. I posted a reputable source breaking it down for you, hoping maybe you could learn something from it, but apparently it's better to add nothing to a discussion but belittling nonsense of others views. Thanks for your contributions. 

The best part is you told me bmags was talking about the draft at the beginning so apparently, reading is a class you should consider taking up on the side as this entire discussion was about the current direction of the organization that has clearly targeted tools over production - as the article I posted very clearly states and lays out for you.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Nardiwashere]

Carson Fulmer was drafted 8 overall.  What pitcher drafted that high doesn’t have a floor of ending up in the bullpen?

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Just now, Nardiwashere said:

Carson Fulmer was drafted 8 overall.  What pitcher drafted that high doesn’t have a floor of ending up in the bullpen?

Apparently, other pitchers drafted that high were starters or out of the league.

There was a TON of risk attached to Fulmer. There was nothing safe about that pick. There were multiple teams that didn't even have Fulmer on their draft board.

[Jack Parkman]

7 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

what?

What's so confusing? 

The only time the Sox ever picked risky guys were Hawkins and Anderson. They only did that because 2012 and 2013 were the last two seasons before draft slotting. Neither player should have been a first rounder, but they picked them there anyway because tools.

Since the draft slotting has been introduced, they have gone back to their MO of low ceiling high floor picks. 

We'll have to agree to disagree. 

There was risk with Fulmer, but he was supposed to be a damn near guaranteed back end reliever, with an outside chance to start. All of the risk with Fulmer was supposed to be whether or not he'd stick as a starter, not whether or not he'd be an MLB pitcher. 

Same with Collins about C/1B. 

The Sox seem to be contrarians with the consensus, which is why they suck so badly at player development. It worked once with Sale and it has emboldened them to think they're right and everyone else is wrong. 

Edited March 26, 2019 by Jack Parkman

[ron883]

4 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Apparently, other pitchers drafted that high were starters or out of the league.

There was a TON of risk attached to Fulmer. There was nothing safe about that pick. There were multiple teams that didn't even have Fulmer on their draft board.

Fulmer was simply a bad pick. His ceiling wasn't particularly high due to his small build. He wasn't on the draft board for many teams because it was a laughable pick that high. You seem to be confusing "high ceiling draft pick" with "terrible draft pick".

[yesterday333]

16 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Good. So now you agree that we seem to be willing to spend half our money on a guy who can't hit.

While I guess I see your frustration of a guy who cant hit, I think getting a top 10 int prospect with some really strong tools as the head of this class isn't a bad thing. I am interested to see how the whole class plays out.