Fernando Tatis Jr. thread

[Tomtom]

7 hours ago, GreenSox said:

It could have happened to anyone.  Thankfully, we have proven winners like Rickey  Renteria,  Rick Hahn and Jeremy Haber running the operation.

Do I detect a note of sarcasm?

[BigHurt3515]

1 hour ago, reiks12 said:

you are being sarcastic but i doubt hes as good coming up in our system

That was the kinda sarcastic statement, I hate to say it but I honestly don't think he would be.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

7 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Everyone sees something in their lottery tickets.  If you are going to take a wild swing...go with a 17 year old shortstop with major league roots.  If you are going to buy a lottery tickets don't play popular numbers (because you will then split with someone else).  The Padres were't going to get Curbelo because he wasn't a lottery ticket.   So they looked way down at the bottom of the Sox barrel and said...well throw in this guy.  And yes...if there is a criticism...don't ever put a lottery ticket in a birthday card because its almost always worthless but when it's not its a disaster.   

Nah everyone doesn't see stuff in their lottery tickets. I hate the lotto ticket analogy because a ticket is an inanimate object where all of them have the same poor chance of winning. We dont scout tickets with talented scouts like Paddy and have to pay more for the ticket than another buyer and do background checks or watch a ticket for months before we pay for it. Why hire Paddy if his talent evaluations are just lottery tickets ?

[Vulture]

8 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

 

The trade was horrible the moment it was made. Sox shouldn't have been trading any kind of prospect for a washed out veteran for a team that wasn't one pitcher away to begin with.

[michelangelosmonkey]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Nah everyone doesn't see stuff in their lottery tickets. I hate the lotto ticket analogy because a ticket is an inanimate object where all of them have the same poor chance of winning. We dont scout tickets with talented scouts like Paddy and have to pay more for the ticket than another buyer and do background checks or watch a ticket for months before we pay for it. Why hire Paddy if his talent evaluations are just lottery tickets ?

We paid overslot for Curbelo...he was a top 10 prospect for us in 2016 at 18 and played short stop.  ALL 18 year old are random outcomes.  If we had traded Curbelo instead no one ever talks about this trade.  We only talk about it because it blew up in our faces.  As I said early, it is a legitimate argument to make that we should NEVER throw in a lottery ticket in any trade.  In this trade it seems San Diego should have thrown in the lottery ticket.   But the odds that Tatis, Jr became Tatis, Jr had to be tens of thousands to one.  It sucks but we did NOT trade a future super star for Shields as the board seems to think.  We traded a raw kid that any reasonable baseball scout would have said is not nearly as likely to succeed as Curbelo.    

[michelangelosmonkey]

24 minutes ago, Vulture said:

The trade was horrible the moment it was made. Sox shouldn't have been trading any kind of prospect for a washed out veteran for a team that wasn't one pitcher away to begin with.

Everything is obvious in retrospect.  Cole Hamels was a washed out veteran pitcher who was TERRIBLE for the Rangers in 2018 and then went to the Cubs and put up a 2.4 WAR in the second half of 2018 for the Cubs.  If Shields does that instead of the -2.1.  They may have had a chance.  Having the White Sox role the dice on the Sale/Quintana/Rodon/Shields/ David Robertson/Nate Jones pitching staff to lead them to the playoffs where anything can happen was not the dumbest move ever made.  Throwing in some nobody was meaningless.  It didn't work out but the failure led to the rebuild. You take chances in life and shaking your fist at the clouds after the fact really doesn't help.     

[soulfly]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Hahn should be fired for the trade.  Not because of who they traded, but who they traded for.  There was no excuse for it.

[TaylorStSox]

12 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

MLB doesn't market anyone; Tatis will be no different. He plays in San Diego where 90% of the country isn't even awake to see him; Mike Trout has been dealing with that his entire career, and Tatis will be no different.

Manfred is a moron; he calls out the players not realizing the NBA and NFL market their players, not the other way around.

The public has no interest in baseball players. Jeter is probably the last celebrity baseball player, possibly ever. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Everything is obvious in retrospect.  Cole Hamels was a washed out veteran pitcher who was TERRIBLE for the Rangers in 2018 and then went to the Cubs and put up a 2.4 WAR in the second half of 2018 for the Cubs.  If Shields does that instead of the -2.1.  They may have had a chance.  Having the White Sox role the dice on the Sale/Quintana/Rodon/Shields/ David Robertson/Nate Jones pitching staff to lead them to the playoffs where anything can happen was not the dumbest move ever made.  Throwing in some nobody was meaningless.  It didn't work out but the failure led to the rebuild. You take chances in life and shaking your fist at the clouds after the fact really doesn't help.     

Many of us here were shaking their fists during the fact because of Shields not Tatis. Even more so after the fact many were proven right about Shields and Tatis proved he wasnt some 1 in 10,000 lottery ticket.

Hahn was supposedly pitching a rebuild for at least a year already. They hired Paddy to beef up the Latin American scouting and he did a great job getting Tatis. Why hire him just to cut off his legs ? Tatis was never some random choice by the Padres. They knew who they wanted. If Hahn truly was pining for a rebuild he had a funny way of showing it.

 

[ron883]

Bump for @caulfield12

Edited August 12, 2020 by Yearnin' for Yermin

[greg775]

If Tatis stays healthy it could end up a top five worst trade in baseball history. What's weird is if we had Tatis would we have had a dynasty in Chicago? Potential superstars in Moncada, Eloy, Tim, Tatis and Robert. Our pitching staff is pretty pedestrian, though. Nice pickup of the veteran this year, though.

[caulfield12]

https://www.mlb.com/padres/video/padres-relay-nabs-taylor-at-home
 

https://www.mlb.com/video/tatis-jr-s-92-8-mph-throw

 

https://www.mlb.com/news/padres-are-must-watch-team-in-mlb

 

By the way, our old friend Yonder Alonso is joining the Padres and reuniting with Manny Machado... 

[michelangelosmonkey]

7 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Many of us here were shaking their fists during the fact because of Shields not Tatis. Even more so after the fact many were proven right about Shields and Tatis proved he wasnt some 1 in 10,000 lottery ticket.

Hahn was supposedly pitching a rebuild for at least a year already. They hired Paddy to beef up the Latin American scouting and he did a great job getting Tatis. Why hire him just to cut off his legs ? Tatis was never some random choice by the Padres. They knew who they wanted. If Hahn truly was pining for a rebuild he had a funny way of showing it.

 

Hahn didn't have the power in 2016.  This was still Kenny's team and he was still the big gambler hoping to hit it big like in 2005.  I didn't support this...I was part of the rebuild believers...but it was not unreasonable.  Sale/Quintana/Rodon put up a +12 WAR that year. Nate Jones/David Robertson/Dan Jennings/Zach Duke had a +6 WAR as the core of potentially a very good relief staff.  Adam Eaton was elite that year, Tim Anderson had a very promising rookie year and you had Abreau and a bunch of old vets that compromised a reasonable offense.  The idea wasn't bad the results were.  People here pretend that they KNEW Shields was toast at the point of the trade...but that's fiction.  Shields had averaged 3.9 WAR the previous five years, and in 2016 he had a 3.06 ERA...2.5 to 1 K/BB rate and a +1 WAR until his last start in San Diego where he gave up 10 runs in 2 innings.  If you want to say you were ready to throw out the previous 5 years and 10 very good starts because he had a bad two innings I'm skeptical.  You would have been RIGHT but you had basically no evidence to support it.  Shields was 34 at the time of the trade.  Randy Johnson was 34 in 1998 and after his first ten starts had a 7 ERA...about the point in the season where Sox got Shields.  Seattle traded Johnson who then put up a 44 WAR in the next 4.5 years.  Sometimes you get lucky.   

As for San Diego targeting Tatis...I mean ok...after the White Sox said...you can't touch these 40 prospects.  You know how unlikely it is for a non-top 30 prospect to even sniff the major leagues?   San Diego likely said "well he's very young, plays short stop and his father was a major leaguer.  Of all the garbage he's the most likely to maybe become a reasonable back up major league shortstop.  The odds of Tatis then becoming the best player in baseball is so remote its not worth talking about.  We wouldn't have these endless arguments if Tatis becomes Ryan Goins.    This was not a master stroke of talent genius by the Padres this was damn luck.  Damnable luck.  

[caulfield12]

This was not a master stroke of talent genius by the Padres this was damn luck.  Damnable luck.  

Note the other three teams in on Tatis.   Padres/Blue Jays/Indians...all excellent organizations for cultivating young prospects and strong farm systems, traditionally.

Calling it all "luck" makes no sense, if that was the case the White Sox would be in the playoffs once every 5 years or so.

Are the Mariners, Marlins, Padres and White Sox simply unlucky, especially those first two organizations?

Were all the teams that passed up on Trout unlucky, or passed on Walker Buehler, or 100 teams that passed on Dustin May, etc.?

Eventually "luck" becomes a pattern/trend/habit.   If the White Sox believed Hostetler was just unlucky in drafting, they wouldn't have "promoted" him out of having anything to do with the draft.

 

 

The son of former Major League infielder Fernando Tatis, Tatis Jr. has a strong arm and fluid actions on defense. The right-handed hitter has displayed raw power to his pull side and has a knack for barreling up the ball. What's more, his repeatable swing has impressed evaluators. On defense, he could end up at second base or third base.

Scouts like Tatis Jr.'s makeup and mature attitude.

https://www.mlb.com/whitesox/news/white-sox-sign-fernando-tatis-jr/c-134059696

 

 

https://theathletic.com/884960/2019/03/25/everybody-was-surprised-but-here-we-are-an-oral-history-of-how-the-padres-acquired-fernando-tatis-jr/

Here we go again.

[gusguyman]

I honestly can't believe y'all are still going on this thread

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Hahn didn't have the power in 2016.  This was still Kenny's team and he was still the big gambler hoping to hit it big like in 2005.  I didn't support this...I was part of the rebuild believers...but it was not unreasonable.  Sale/Quintana/Rodon put up a +12 WAR that year. Nate Jones/David Robertson/Dan Jennings/Zach Duke had a +6 WAR as the core of potentially a very good relief staff.  Adam Eaton was elite that year, Tim Anderson had a very promising rookie year and you had Abreau and a bunch of old vets that compromised a reasonable offense.  The idea wasn't bad the results were.  People here pretend that they KNEW Shields was toast at the point of the trade...but that's fiction.  Shields had averaged 3.9 WAR the previous five years, and in 2016 he had a 3.06 ERA...2.5 to 1 K/BB rate and a +1 WAR until his last start in San Diego where he gave up 10 runs in 2 innings.  If you want to say you were ready to throw out the previous 5 years and 10 very good starts because he had a bad two innings I'm skeptical.  You would have been RIGHT but you had basically no evidence to support it.  Shields was 34 at the time of the trade.  Randy Johnson was 34 in 1998 and after his first ten starts had a 7 ERA...about the point in the season where Sox got Shields.  Seattle traded Johnson who then put up a 44 WAR in the next 4.5 years.  Sometimes you get lucky.   

As for San Diego targeting Tatis...I mean ok...after the White Sox said...you can't touch these 40 prospects.  You know how unlikely it is for a non-top 30 prospect to even sniff the major leagues?   San Diego likely said "well he's very young, plays short stop and his father was a major leaguer.  Of all the garbage he's the most likely to maybe become a reasonable back up major league shortstop.  The odds of Tatis then becoming the best player in baseball is so remote its not worth talking about.  We wouldn't have these endless arguments if Tatis becomes Ryan Goins.    This was not a master stroke of talent genius by the Padres this was damn luck.  Damnable luck.  

Maybe u better find the thread here at the time of the trade and read it. You're carrying a huge bucket of water there. You cant keep comparing Shields to other older pitchers . You have a pro scouting department to make those decisions. ALL you keep doing is throwing up numbers .Do u look behind the numbers ? Was Hamels or johnson hurt?

Maybe you should read what Caulfield posted from The Athletic from Tatis Sr. recollection of the teams pursuing Tatis and how Sox got him and how the Padres then traded for him. It was not pure luck .All you keep doing is making up stories to fit your narrative. Read the real story.

Edited August 12, 2020 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[southsider2k5]

6 minutes ago, gusguyman said:

I honestly can't believe y'all are still going on this thread

Welcome to Soxtalk man.  This thread will be bumped every single time Tatis does something good, or the Sox are not playing well.

[turnin' two]

8 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

https://www.mlb.com/padres/video/padres-relay-nabs-taylor-at-home
 

https://www.mlb.com/video/tatis-jr-s-92-8-mph-throw

 

https://www.mlb.com/news/padres-are-must-watch-team-in-mlb

 

By the way, our old friend Yonder Alonso is joining the Padres and reuniting with Manny Machado... 

Ahhhh.  So you get Manny, then he brings in Alonso.  Rats.  Had it backwards.

[flavum]

The Sox traded a future Hall of Famer when he was 17. It’s mostly funny.

Sox need to play in back to back ALCSs or win a World Series in the next 4-5 years to make this topic go away. 

[turnin' two]

And as for the topic at hand.  Tatis Jr. seems like he will be a truly great player.  It sucks for the Sox, but I think he will be great for baseball.  What a player.  It'll be hard to watch him without any trace of "what could have been", but I still enjoy watching him.

[michelangelosmonkey]

4 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Maybe u better find the thread here at the time of the trade and read it.

Why?  Because people said, based on his most recent outing and his age, that Shields was done?  You are not trying to tell me that people on Soxtalk jumped to wild conclusions based on a single data point???  There are lots of examples of 34 year old pitchers that resurrect their career...at 34 Rich Hill had averaged a negative WAR his previous 7 years  and then had 10 WAR the next 5 years.  Also lots of pitchers at 34 that fall off the cliff.  Randomness happens.  You were right...but it didn't really matter because it only cost us money, a AAAA pitcher and Ryan Goins so it was worth the gamble...I mean, unless Ryan Goins becomes the best player in baseball...hahahahahaha...oh shit.  

[caulfield12]

42 minutes ago, turnin' two said:

And as for the topic at hand.  Tatis Jr. seems like he will be a truly great player.  It sucks for the Sox, but I think he will be great for baseball.  What a player.  It'll be hard to watch him without any trace of "what could have been", but I still enjoy watching him.

Has the hardest Infield throw recorded this year at 93.5 mph.

Behind some outfielders in the statcast era who have that 4-5 extra steps running into a throw with all  momentum moving forward.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2634518-yankees-aaron-hicks-unloads-record-breaking-105-mph-throw-for-run-saving-out

[caulfield12]

All things considered, we could use Bassitt and Montas even more than a SS right now.

https://whitecleatbeat.com/2020/07/23/chris-bassitt-showing-build-off-2019-breakout/
 

And he’s even speaking out against Astros and the “double standard” in baseball...

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

23 hours ago, gusguyman said:

I honestly can't believe y'all are still going on this thread

People will always discuss controversial subjects involving things they are passionate about . It's not quite the JFK assassination but on a Sox forum it might as well be.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

23 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Why?  Because people said, based on his most recent outing and his age, that Shields was done?  You are not trying to tell me that people on Soxtalk jumped to wild conclusions based on a single data point???  There are lots of examples of 34 year old pitchers that resurrect their career...at 34 Rich Hill had averaged a negative WAR his previous 7 years  and then had 10 WAR the next 5 years.  Also lots of pitchers at 34 that fall off the cliff.  Randomness happens.  You were right...but it didn't really matter because it only cost us money, a AAAA pitcher and Ryan Goins so it was worth the gamble...I mean, unless Ryan Goins becomes the best player in baseball...hahahahahaha...oh shit.  

Ok yes we were all jumping to conclusions based on a single data point.Have it you way.  If you dont want to deal with reality theres nothing else to discuss.  You already made up your own history of events. Hahn had no power, Shield couldve been Cole Hamels or Randy Johnson, the Padres interest in Tatis was pure luck and Tatis was a one in 10,000 lotto ticket . IF the odds were that high for every player Marco Paddy ever signed he wouldn't have a job let alone be a highly respected talent evaluator.

Do you really think so little of your Soxtalk brethren that in a long thread on the trade that not one person hating the trade made any kind of sense and you have nothing to learn ?

Edited August 13, 2020 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside