Lip Man 1 Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 2 hours ago, SCCWS said: Unless they go get one like Cubs, Astros, Red Sox did. The Cubs, Red Sox and Astros don't have JR as owner with his financial practices. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 11 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said: As I wrote, "if he stays healthy and is reasonably productive." But the bottom line is that at some point I'd suspect the Sox will be dealing him and to try to get the most that you can he has to be dealt with two years or a year and a half left on his deal. It's not like the Sox will be doing anything before 2021 at the earliest in my opinion so trading him sooner rather than later is probably the wisest course. The Sox likely think, right or wrong, that they will compete next year with Kopech returning and Cease joint the rotation. Rodon is under contract for next year and 2021. I doubt they trade him knowing this. They probably have visions of a 2020 rotation like this, with everyone panning out... Kopech Rodon Lopez Cease Giolito Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Harper2Sox said: The Sox likely think, right or wrong, that they will compete next year with Kopech returning and Cease joint the rotation. Rodon is under contract for next year and 2021. I doubt they trade him knowing this. They probably have visions of a 2020 rotation like this, with everyone panning out... Kopech Rodon Lopez Cease Giolito Swap Giolito and Lopez, and Cease and Rodon. At this point in terms of upside: Kopech Cease Giolito Rodon Lopez Dunning Giolito has #2 upside if he can repeat his delivery. That is the huge question with him. It will determine if he's a TOR starter or a complete bust. Edited April 9, 2019 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 I can’t believe Rodon 4 years I’m still doesn’t have an average changeup. He should be throwing that pitch 10- 15% of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCCWS Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 9 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said: The Cubs, Red Sox and Astros don't have JR as owner with his financial practices. Agree but Red Sox traded to get Sale. When the Sox become competitive again, they can always trade for an ace if none of our young prospects become one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 1 minute ago, SCCWS said: Agree but Red Sox traded to get Sale. When the Sox become competitive again, they can always trade for an ace if none of our young prospects become one. That assumes enough of the White Sox's outfield talent pans out for them to have extra resources to trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCCWS Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: That assumes enough of the White Sox's outfield talent pans out for them to have extra resources to trade. True but we also will most likely have a couple more high draft picks by then. We could also have an elite infielder behind Moncada-Anderson-Madrigal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 1 minute ago, SCCWS said: True but we also will most likely have a couple more high draft picks by then. We could also have an elite infielder behind Moncada-Anderson-Madrigal. And if Madrigal develops into even a decent player...we have a clear hole at 2b. Madrigal made sense as possible trade bait when we might acquire a top level free agent infielder, this is no longer the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron883 Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: And if Madrigal develops into even a decent player...we have a clear hole at 2b. Madrigal made sense as possible trade bait when we might acquire a top level free agent infielder, this is no longer the case. I'm ready to put Sosa above Madrigal if he doesn't start hitting soon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish71 Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 12 minutes ago, ron883 said: I'm ready to put Sosa above Madrigal if he doesn't start hitting soon Its 4 games into the season. Really? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 11 minutes ago, ron883 said: I'm ready to put Sosa above Madrigal if he doesn't start hitting soon 170 minor league at bats and he's on the hot seat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 I'd be fine trading madrigal and covering 2b through free agency. Has been good options last few years for cheap. Requires believing that Hahn can identify a good free agent, but that's the world we are in. Of the positions where you could say "we can feasibly cover this in free agency without worry" I'd point to 2b, corner of and C, and obviously 1b but ideally we can produce a freaking 1b. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 Rodon has major consistency problems. For whatever reason, he is not able to consistently keep his form and his release point. When it is right, he is as good as anyone, when its not, he struggles to find the plate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 Just now, southsider2k5 said: Rodon has major consistency problems. For whatever reason, he is not able to consistently keep his form and his release point. When it is right, he is as good as anyone, when its not, he struggles to find the plate. I still fault the awful upright follow through that I've commented on since they drafted him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 I do think Rodon will actually be pretty successful this year. He's mccullersing which is good, and his slider is varied so it's not so simple as to classify it as a single pitch. But when his fastball is as bad as its been, and when he apparently does not bother with either a 2seam/sinker or changeup, he has a ceiling that I can't imagine more than a decent 3 starter. For real though, when he needs to he can just go slider every pitch in an at bat and it's very unlikely they will get a hit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Rodon has major consistency problems. For whatever reason, he is not able to consistently keep his form and his release point. When it is right, he is as good as anyone, when its not, he struggles to find the plate. Missing as much time as he has in his career hurts a lot when it comes to consistency. Especially when you're as secondary heavy as he is. Reps are really the only cure for this. If he puts in 200 innings this year his consistency should really improve. People, imo, should be incredibly optimistic when it comes to rodon. If he stays healthy (this is his #1 concern) he still has an elite ceiling. His evolution this year is beautiful to watch. He should always have been secondary heavy. His fastball can be below league average and he can still be a star as his slider continues to evolve. Look no further than Corey Kluber for evidence supporting this. Carlos slider is good enough for this. It's an 80 pitch. The fact he can change both plane and velocity with consistency with it is very promising. Its 3 pitches at this point. Edited April 9, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 10 minutes ago, bmags said: I'd be fine trading madrigal and covering 2b through free agency. Has been good options last few years for cheap. Requires believing that Hahn can identify a good free agent, but that's the world we are in. Of the positions where you could say "we can feasibly cover this in free agency without worry" I'd point to 2b, corner of and C, and obviously 1b but ideally we can produce a freaking 1b. IMO, trading your low-priced guy for a mid-priced guy and then having to sign a mid to high priced guy in FA is a particularly high risk strategy. It only really makes sense if the low-priced guy is years away from being useful to you, and even then it is somewhat a step to undermine your future for the present. The Cubs have made that move several times - signing guys like Zobrist, Heyward, and Darvish while trading Eloy, Cease, and Torres. It definitely helped them "Win Now" when they had to do so, but in the long term we've seen how that raised their costs and removed their flexibility. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: IMO, trading your low-priced guy for a mid-priced guy and then having to sign a mid to high priced guy in FA is a particularly high risk strategy. It only really makes sense if the low-priced guy is years away from being useful to you, and even then it is somewhat a step to undermine your future for the present. The Cubs have made that move several times - signing guys like Zobrist, Heyward, and Darvish while trading Eloy, Cease, and Torres. It definitely helped them "Win Now" when they had to do so, but in the long term we've seen how that raised their costs and removed their flexibility. Trading a low priced guy for an elite guy would be a good strategy, not signing bad players like heyward and darvish is also an important strategy to being good. But the 2b market has been suppressed and likely will continue to be. Lemahieu/Lowrie were both short term, low cost. Trades for 2b were also fairly low cost and the rumored market was even bigger. Trading low priced guy for mid priced guy sounds bad, but if mid priced guy is much better value than his price - that's good! All depends, but with the exception of Robert, there isn't a guy in our minors that I would not put in a deal if a Yelich came along - to me we are at that point where it will make sense next offseason. Unfortunately, I don't see any other team about to be in a position that badly unless the ...nationals explode? Who knows, almost every team is in their long term plan at this point. There may not be an opportunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 1 minute ago, bmags said: Trading a low priced guy for an elite guy would be a good strategy, not signing bad players like heyward and darvish is also an important strategy to being good. But the 2b market has been suppressed and likely will continue to be. Lemahieu/Lowrie were both short term, low cost. Trades for 2b were also fairly low cost and the rumored market was even bigger. Trading low priced guy for mid priced guy sounds bad, but if mid priced guy is much better value than his price - that's good! All depends, but with the exception of Robert, there isn't a guy in our minors that I would not put in a deal if a Yelich came along - to me we are at that point where it will make sense next offseason. Unfortunately, I don't see any other team about to be in a position that badly unless the ...nationals explode? Who knows, almost every team is in their long term plan at this point. There may not be an opportunity. I fully continue to believe that the only way to avoid the bolded is to avoid the free agent market almost entirely, at least at the "Middle levels" (maybe excluding the very top $200 million+ guys). It's not just a matter of being better or worse at it, it's a game where you have a 50% failure rate, a 25% mediocre rate, and a 25% success rate. If you are going out to sign guys, you are likely to wind up with that quality. It's just unavoidable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 1 minute ago, Balta1701 said: I fully continue to believe that the only way to avoid the bolded is to avoid the free agent market almost entirely, at least at the "Middle levels" (maybe excluding the very top $200 million+ guys). It's not just a matter of being better or worse at it, it's a game where you have a 50% failure rate, a 25% mediocre rate, and a 25% success rate. If you are going out to sign guys, you are likely to wind up with that quality. It's just unavoidable. That's great, but the sox will need to supplement, so they will need to sign guys and have them produce. Targeting 2b/corner OF at least will likely get them players on contracts that will not be disasters like Darvish/Heyward if they miss. Your option of "don't do anything and just lament the position they are in" isn't compelling to me. There is a chance Madrigal is not great, and so if you have the option to get a shorter term controlled but great now player with a package around him - that's good! Take that! However, the sox are going to have to take a chance on a pitching contract with a high likelihood of it being a disaster at least in the late years of the contract. Their depth in SP is terrible. Best options are going to be high priced reclamation starter for cheap talent package or FA starter. There are some mid tier guys I like next year, but I wouldn't group together 2-3 mid tier guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 31 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: I fully continue to believe that the only way to avoid the bolded is to avoid the free agent market almost entirely, at least at the "Middle levels" (maybe excluding the very top $200 million+ guys). It's not just a matter of being better or worse at it, it's a game where you have a 50% failure rate, a 25% mediocre rate, and a 25% success rate. If you are going out to sign guys, you are likely to wind up with that quality. It's just unavoidable. On teams that don't have a near luxury tax budget, this is a good plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 20 minutes ago, bmags said: That's great, but the sox will need to supplement, so they will need to sign guys and have them produce. Targeting 2b/corner OF at least will likely get them players on contracts that will not be disasters like Darvish/Heyward if they miss. Your option of "don't do anything and just lament the position they are in" isn't compelling to me. There is a chance Madrigal is not great, and so if you have the option to get a shorter term controlled but great now player with a package around him - that's good! Take that! However, the sox are going to have to take a chance on a pitching contract with a high likelihood of it being a disaster at least in the late years of the contract. Their depth in SP is terrible. Best options are going to be high priced reclamation starter for cheap talent package or FA starter. There are some mid tier guys I like next year, but I wouldn't group together 2-3 mid tier guys. IMO, your best bets remain: 1. Cover as many positions as possible internally 2. One or two free agent or trade acquisitions at most, to fill positions you simply couldn't cover elsewhere 3. Trade deadline acquisitions to finish things off. I think that's a good summary of the last group of teams to make the world series. The worst, most troublesome thing you said is the statement about the pitching, because I'm pretty sure you can find posts by me in mid-2017 saying something along the lines of "Rick Hahn is gambling his entire rebuild on the ability of the White Sox to develop a strong starting pitching rotation out of all of the pitching pieces he acquired and if that doesn't work then there's not going to be any hope for this franchise". I'm still inclined to believe that's an unavoidable result of the moves they made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 11 hours ago, Harper2Sox said: The Sox likely think, right or wrong, that they will compete next year with Kopech returning and Cease joint the rotation. Rodon is under contract for next year and 2021. I doubt they trade him knowing this. They probably have visions of a 2020 rotation like this, with everyone panning out... Kopech Rodon Lopez Cease Giolito Zero chance they don’t add a veteran starter this offseason. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneDog847 Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: Zero chance they don’t add a veteran starter this offseason. Yep. It isn't going to be a guy in the Cole or Bumgardner tier though. I actually think they will add two guys. A lefty and a righty. Someone like Wacha/Wheeler as a righty and someone like Matt Moore/Alex Wood as a lefty. Edited April 9, 2019 by OneDog847 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, OneDog847 said: Yep. It isn't going to be a guy in the Cole or Bumgardner tier though. I actually think they will add two guys. A lefty and a righty. Someone like Wacha/Wheeler as a righty and someone like Matt Moore/Alex Wood as a lefty. I agree on Cole, but I fully expect it to be Bumgarner in all honestly. But at this point we may need to add two starters if enough of the young guys flop this year. Edited April 9, 2019 by Chicago White Sox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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