Rick Hahn, Nick Hostetler, Jeremy Haber, and our minor league systems

[soxfan49]

2 hours ago, Jerksticks said:

Harper, Kimbrel & Corbin probably would have made us WS contenders as early as 2020. 

Robert

Moncada

Abreu

Harper

Jimenez

TA

Collins

Anybody

Madrigal

 

thats the best offense in baseball.  Why the EFF didn’t they even attempt to sign that huge lefty bat that was available.  

Fixed

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

2 hours ago, Jerksticks said:

Harper, Kimbrel & Corbin probably would have made us WS contenders as early as 2020. 

Robert

Moncada

Abreu

Harper

Jimenez

TA

Collins

Anybody

Madrigal

 

thats the best offense in baseball.  Why the EFF didn’t they sign that huge lefty bat that was available.  

Yea, I don’t get it. Both the Sox and the entire fan base were so fixated on Machado while Harper was always the better fit. Plug him into RF and #3 hole for the next 7 years without thinking twice. A complete no brainer. And from a $$$ perspective (since that’s Jerry’s #1 priority), he pays for himself in tickets, merchandise, television viewership, etc. 

[Y2Jimmy0]

I wrote these two articles last month to offer some context on their drafts. 

http://www.chicagonow.com/future-sox/2019/03/white-sox-should-be-pleased-with-third-pick/

http://www.chicagonow.com/future-sox/2019/01/sox-draft-philosophy-focused-on-long-term-results-not-top-100-prospects/

 

I think it's generally too early to judge any of Nick Hostetler's drafts. With that being said, the system does lack upside. The lack of HS talent really shows. The drafting method of the past few years has insulated a terrible system with talent and I believe there are a lot of big leaguers in the system. While the lack of upside is apparent, having many big leaguers helps with trades and filling in around stars. I'm a big fan of the Zack Collins pick and I understand Jake Burger with that particular selection. Their 2nd round strategy leaves much to be desired but it's still too early to judge the drafts IMO. 

[Chicago White Sox]

18 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

I wrote these two articles last month to offer some context on their drafts. 

http://www.chicagonow.com/future-sox/2019/03/white-sox-should-be-pleased-with-third-pick/

http://www.chicagonow.com/future-sox/2019/01/sox-draft-philosophy-focused-on-long-term-results-not-top-100-prospects/

 

I think it's generally too early to judge any of Nick Hostetler's drafts. With that being said, the system does lack upside. The lack of HS talent really shows. The drafting method of the past few years has insulated a terrible system with talent and I believe there are a lot of big leaguers in the system. While the lack of upside is apparent, having many big leaguers helps with trades and filling in around stars. I'm a big fan of the Zack Collins pick and I understand Jake Burger with that particular selection. Their 2nd round strategy leaves much to be desired but it's still too early to judge the drafts IMO. 

Yeah, it’s really hard to evaluate his drafts.  Just a year ago, that 2016 draft was looking fantastic with Collins, Burdi, & Hansen all cracking top 100 lists.  There is still hope for all three of those guys, but the potential outcomes are all over the place at this point.  However, last season saw the rise of Lambert, Flores, & Hamilton and that’s helped offset some of the uncertainty with the higher regarded guys.  That 2016 draft could literally be anything from an epic disaster to an absolute haul.  It’s really going to take another couple years to find out.

To me the biggest issue is how safe he’s been with his drafts and to your point that’s primarily tied to not drafting HS kids.  Last year was an improvement by taking three high schoolers in the first 11 rounds, but at some point we have to be prepared to take one in the 1st or 2nd.  This year in particular will be the ultimate test if Adley & Vaughn are off the board.  IMO, skipping on Witt and Abrams in such a scenario would be very troubling.

[turnin' two]

1 hour ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Their 2nd round strategy leaves much to be desired but it's still too early to judge the drafts IMO. 

I have hated their last couple 2nd rounders.  I would have taken different guys in the first round, but as you said, I understand those, and I don't have all the info they do, so those are fine.  What I haven't liked about their second rounders is taking guys with the similar profiles.  With Burger they took Sheets.  Safe college bat.  Corner IF, big power, good eye.  Not a lot of project-able talent left.  Same thing last year.  Madrigal was advanced college bat, great bat to ball skills, limited power.  Walker, basically the same offensive profile.  

They need to diversify their thinking.  If you take the safe college bat with the first pick, take the HS bat or pitcher with the 2nd pick.  Balance things out.  If you always take the low risk option, you will never hit it big.  Not that they should always take that high risk player either, you need a balance.  The Sox play not to lose.  And it results in them losing.  They stick their money in the mattress because the market is too risky.    A guy like Jeremiah Jackson, or even the much discussed Alek Thomas would have been much better picks (even forgetting they may be suppressing Walker league-wise because of too many other OFers at the same level), just because they would have added more upside to the system.  

They probably look back at Hawkins and Barnum and say --- "ugh that was terrible, let's not do that again." but they have done it again.  Taking those guys wasn't terrible, but using 2 guys with the same flaws and the same downside is what killed them.  Take a HS kid.  High in the draft.  Not exclusively, but don't count them out just because they are HS kids either.  That pushes what is probably the most premium talent off to the side because of a flawed philosophy. 

[turnin' two]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

 This year in particular will be the ultimate test if Adley & Vaughn are off the board.  IMO, skipping on Witt and Abrams in such a scenario would be very troubling.

I could not agree with this sentiment more.

[mqr]

13 hours ago, poppysox said:

As I've said before...he is going to be special.  Working the count, using up a pitchers 100 pitches,  stealing an important base.  Nellie Fox won a lot of important games for the Sox and he was a Madrigal without as much speed.  Can't wait.

Nelly Fox played for the Sox half a century ago

[bmags]

The second rounders (and 1st round comp pick) are exactly my issues too. They really did pick just after some unfortunate fulcrums in 2016, 2017.

But they should be targeting HS pitcher/SS profiles in round 2, not rounds 4 and 6. It has led to a system without much youth and still struggling to produce out of latam.

[ottawa_sox]

30 minutes ago, mqr said:

Nelly Fox played for the Sox half a century ago

Then how about Iguchi as a comparison.  He hit for a little more power than what many people project for Madrigal, but he was a seasoned 30 year old veteran when he started for the Sox.  With the juiced ball and Madrigal becoming man strong, who knows.  Personally I don't care about the homers much.  I look forward the to the increased pressure on the defence and excitement caused by a true contact hitter.  And Iguchi struck out about twice as much as he walked.  Aparicio / Fox; Pods / Iguchi ........ then who knows (maybe Robert / Madrigal).  When a batter reaches first in the first inning and stays there it feels like 9 innings of corpseball mentality settling in.  We've witnessed too much of that over the years.  I used to hate seeing an aged Tim Raines standing on first, smiling a lot, while having an apparent aversion to negatively impacting his career stolen base percentage.  If the guy hitting second can't be counted on to make contact we'll be missing out on a winning aspect of the game.  It's an especially valuable skill set against very good pitchers.  Also great defence, leadership qualities.  Can't wait.

 

[chitownsportsfan]

1 hour ago, ottawa_sox said:

Then how about Iguchi as a comparison.  He hit for a little more power than what many people project for Madrigal, but he was a seasoned 30 year old veteran when he started for the Sox.  With the juiced ball and Madrigal becoming man strong, who knows.  Personally I don't care about the homers much.  I look forward the to the increased pressure on the defence and excitement caused by a true contact hitter.  And Iguchi struck out about twice as much as he walked.  Aparicio / Fox; Pods / Iguchi ........ then who knows (maybe Robert / Madrigal).  When a batter reaches first in the first inning and stays there it feels like 9 innings of corpseball mentality settling in.  We've witnessed too much of that over the years.  I used to hate seeing an aged Tim Raines standing on first, smiling a lot, while having an apparent aversion to negatively impacting his career stolen base percentage.  If the guy hitting second can't be counted on to make contact we'll be missing out on a winning aspect of the game.  It's an especially valuable skill set against very good pitchers.  Also great defence, leadership qualities.  Can't wait.

 

Tim Raines had nothing to do with "corpseball", FFS.  Some of the comments on here have gotten Cubs forum circa 2012 bad.  Bringing up an aging yet productive Tim Raines as an example of bad Sox teams and players?  What?

 

[SonofaRoache]

4 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Yea, I don’t get it. Both the Sox and the entire fan base were so fixated on Machado while Harper was always the better fit. Plug him into RF and #3 hole for the next 7 years without thinking twice. A complete no brainer. And from a $$$ perspective (since that’s Jerry’s #1 priority), he pays for himself in tickets, merchandise, television viewership, etc. 

This isn't true. The fans were fixated on Harper for a month, then switched to Machado when it became apparent we are only after him. 

[ron883]

4 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Tim Raines had nothing to do with "corpseball", FFS.  Some of the comments on here have gotten Cubs forum circa 2012 bad.  Bringing up an aging yet productive Tim Raines as an example of bad Sox teams and players?  What?

 

I just looked up Tim Raines stats. Damn, that guy was productive for a long long time. His White Sox years were still pretty impressive 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

10 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

This isn't true. The fans were fixated on Harper for a month, then switched to Machado when it became apparent we are only after him. 

9/10 posters on here wanted Machado over Harper if given the choice. They said he was a better fit. Go back and look at the threads. I was blasted for saying back in December that Harper was the better fit and the guy they should be targeting.

[GreenSox]

11 hours ago, Jerksticks said:

Scotty Pods only hit 20 some doubles every season and was lucky to OPS .700.  He stole a shit ton of bags, got on base , wreaked havoc and scored runs.  Now imagine he didn’t gobble up a corner outfield spot and played 2B instead.  That’s a great player to have hitting 1 or 9 on an already powerful lineup.  That’s Madrigal if he pans out.   

 

Sure that's a good player to have around....but not at the price of a top 5 pick.  
Plus, if all he can do is slap singles in the minors, what are the chances that he can  replicate it in the majors?

[chitownsportsfan]

15 minutes ago, ron883 said:

I just looked up Tim Raines stats. Damn, that guy was productive for a long long time. His White Sox years were still pretty impressive 

Yes he was.  Rock was standing on 1st quite a bit, man could work a count and get on.  Raines is a borderline HOFer (not quite imo) but is a no doubt HOVGer and his time on the South Side was productive.  If the Sox had a few more hitters like Raines the last decade they probably would have another playoff appearance or two.

[reiks12]

10 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

9/10 posters on here wanted Machado over Harper if given the choice. They said he was a better fit. Go back and look at the threads. I was blasted for saying back in December that Harper was the better fit and the guy they should be targeting.

that isnt true, at the start of the offseason it was heavily in favor of harper, there was a poll about it and the Harper thread was way more active

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

8 minutes ago, reiks12 said:

that isnt true, at the start of the offseason it was heavily in favor of harper, there was a poll about it and the Harper thread was way more active

Well, I guess I missed that thread then. I wasn’t active on here in November but when I started posting on the FA pursuit in late December, it sure seemed like consensus was that posters favored Machado over Harper based on the responses to my posts preferring Harper.

[reiks12]

4 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Well, I guess I missed that thread then. I wasn’t active on here in November but when I started posting on the FA pursuit in late December, it sure seemed like consensus was that posters favored Machado over Harper based on the responses to my posts preferring Harper.

You are correct, it flipped at one point because the rumors in december said we were favorites

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

2 minutes ago, reiks12 said:

You are correct, it flipped at one point because the rumors in december said we were favorites

So people changed their preference of who they wanted on the Sox based on the perceived odds of signing said player? That’s interesting but I guess not too surprising either.

[turnin' two]

59 minutes ago, ron883 said:

I just looked up Tim Raines stats. Damn, that guy was productive for a long long time. His White Sox years were still pretty impressive 

Hahah.

This just in, Hall of Famer was good!

[SonofaRoache]

53 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

9/10 posters on here wanted Machado over Harper if given the choice. They said he was a better fit. Go back and look at the threads. I was blasted for saying back in December that Harper was the better fit and the guy they should be targeting.

So this would explain why for a month there were hundreds of pages talking about Harper, and only 7 pages on Machado until we signed Machado's friends. 

[SonofaRoache]

23 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

So people changed their preference of who they wanted on the Sox based on the perceived odds of signing said player? That’s interesting but I guess not too surprising either.

Well it wouldn't make sense to talk about a guy we weren't in talks with. Machado and Harper are great players and we were desperate, so we took what we could get as fans. 

[mqr]

3 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

Well it wouldn't make sense to talk about a guy we weren't in talks with. Machado and Harper are great players and we were desperate, so we took what we could get as fans. 

At the end of the day, either one would have been an upgrade on either of the two of the worst spots in the lineup. They Got neither. It doesn't matter, now.

Edited April 15, 2019 by mqr

[chitownsportsfan]

5 minutes ago, turnin' two said:

Hahah.

This just in, Hall of Famer was good!

ha, I'm not convinced he's a HOFer but the voters did so I guess that's alright.  I was rooting for him to get in but personally I think he falls a bit short stats wise.

[mqr]

9 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

ha, I'm not convinced he's a HOFer but the voters did so I guess that's alright.  I was rooting for him to get in but personally I think he falls a bit short stats wise.

He's more of a HOFer than the other -aines