Game of Thrones

[bmags]

This is the stuff I'm talking about when I say I'm sympathetic to the show runners sometimes with a long running show:

https://www.elitedaily.com/entertainment/feud-got-cersei-bronn/2059201

I never knew this, but you have to wonder how many better storylines get chopped to reality.

George RR Martin doesn't have to deal with that.

[Jenksismyhero]

10 minutes ago, Harper2Sox said:

I assume they mean because he went from evil to good, got with the moral Brienne, and then left her to get back with his evil sister right at the end?

Yeah, it was a little weird and not my favorite end for his character.

Jaime's was the worst "arc." I don't think they had any idea what to do with him. He was bad to start, and then when he lost his hand, had his hot tub scene with Brienne and was good to her, you thought he was turning a corner. Then he fucks Cersei again and tells everyone he'd burn the world to the ground to be with her. Then Cersei goes too far and he flips back to Brienne and fighting humanity and blah blah, only to then turn around and want to be with Cersei again. 

The dude flip flopped too many times to count and each time it was not very believable. 

[illinilaw08]

7 minutes ago, GoSox05 said:

Character development.  The show is ending and people are going to die.  This has been happening on this show for 8 seasons. 

Do people think that Jaime Lannister was going to make it out of this alive.  I always assumed his was going to die, with just about everyone else. Are people just mad at the way he died?  I'm just not sure that matters.

His character is redeemed, then he's running back to Cersei.  He is redeemed, and then he's running back to Cersei.  All of the times that they push Jaime back to Cersei on the show seemed to be because the plot dictate that happen rather than the natural progression of his character arc.

Characters die on this show, but that doesn't mean that the characters shouldn't act consistent with their characterizations over the prior 8 seasons...

[Jenksismyhero]

Also, someone may have pointed this out already, but LOL at Jaime telling Tyrion he never cared about the people... Didn't he kill the Mad King precisely to save the people? wtf?

[GoSox05]

Just now, illinilaw08 said:

His character is redeemed, then he's running back to Cersei.  He is redeemed, and then he's running back to Cersei.  All of the times that they push Jaime back to Cersei on the show seemed to be because the plot dictate that happen rather than the natural progression of his character arc.

Characters die on this show, but that doesn't mean that the characters shouldn't act consistent with their characterizations over the prior 8 seasons...

It just seemed pretty consistent to his character.  He was a complex character that did good and bad things.  He had a very complex relationship with his sister, who he loved and hated.  He tries to live a more normal life without her, but he can't let her go and it ultimately costs him his life. 

 

 

[Kyyle23]

 

[StrangeSox]

37 minutes ago, Jenksismyhero said:

Also, someone may have pointed this out already, but LOL at Jaime telling Tyrion he never cared about the people... Didn't he kill the Mad King precisely to save the people? wtf?

yes there's lots of instances of extreme contrast/180* opposite of what characters previously said in seasons 1-5 versus what they've said in seasons 7 and 8.

[TaylorStSox]

1 hour ago, GoSox05 said:

It just seemed pretty consistent to his character.  He was a complex character that did good and bad things.  He had a very complex relationship with his sister, who he loved and hated.  He tries to live a more normal life without her, but he can't let her go and it ultimately costs him his life. 

 

 

She was like his drug. People are weird and cognitive dissonance exists. 

[TaylorStSox]

Remember when the sorcerers called Dany "The Mother of Death" and what we thought was snow falling on the Iron Throne was actually ashes in her vision? The more I think about all the foreshadowing, the more it makes sense. 

 

The show-runners didn't do a good enough job foreshadowing her turn. It's pretty obvious in the books though. She was never going to be a typical princess and these aren't comic book characters. Jon and Davos are probably the only 2 righteous characters in the whole saga. Everyone else was flawed and showed a lot of cognitive dissonance. Maybe Sansa is an exception, but Sansa was a poorly written, one dimensional character throughout most of the books too. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by TaylorStSox

[Chisoxfn]

5 hours ago, bmags said:

I was a supporter of Dany turning bad but I have zero clue why she started indiscriminately flaming people. They can’t just expect a dramatic look to do that work. Her wanting to rule through fear doesn’t cut it. 

I presume she had so much rage that it felt good to her to get it all out and when she paused about it, she decided she wanted to do more. I think the reality was, in the heat of the moment, with as raw as she was, she snapped.  

[TaylorStSox]

Here are a couple posts from the ASOIAF message boards that might make help explain Dany's turn. They're probably easier for book readers to follow.

 

Quote

The signs were her responses that coincided with Viserys' responses a lot from the start of the season. It is the first time she actually meets smallfolk, whereas on Dragonstone it was just her, with her advizors and armies. Rationally she knew that Viserys' tales of the smallfolk wishing for the return of Targs and secretly toasting was a fantasy of Viserys, but in her mind she felt she deserves to expect this of the "people" because she did all she could to be a benevolent rightful ruler: be strong, hatch dragons, get an army that won't pillage or rape, free all slaves as Westerosi are anti-slavery, attempt peace in Mereen, etc. She wanted to be welcomed as their savior with open arms and be toasted. Desires aren't rational.

The first smallfolk she encounters are those of Wintertown and they only look at her with fear and mistrust, despite the fact she brought her dragons and armies to defend them against an army of the dead. Well, at least she might expect a heartfelt welcome by Jon's own sister? But she doesn't. And during that welcome she is reminded of the loss of Viserion and how he was turned into an enemy. She "named" him after Viserys. Now a part of her had come to despise Viserys, but he was also her sole caretaker for many of her formative years. Chronic abuse of a parent-figure on who you are dependent might make you fear them, maybe even hate them, but also love them in a twisted way. For years, she needed to try and empathize with Viserys, think and feel like him, to anticipate his moods, to anticipate how to please him so he wouldn't hurt her. It creates a twisted bond. And Viserion represented the ideal Viserys in a way - finally a dragon, white and pure, she can love and who loves her back. Viserion is her way to round up that strange love for an abusive parent figure and project it onto something else, so she doesn't need to confront her conflicting feelings for Viserys himself. When she loses Viserion, she now must deal with the complete bag of feelings for Viserys, including the inexpicable feelings that she loved him, even though he abused her. How is this externalized? She expects Jon to make his sister behave better to her, just by word of command alone. This is what Viserys did to Dany, and in fact, when amongst people who had no respect for him, Viserys demanded her to make the Dothraki and Khal Drogo respect him. So, she expects Jon and Sansa to have a similar boss-servant relation. Meanhile, the less instant love she gets from everyone else, the more she seeks and desires it from Jon, and so she takes him on the dragon flight.

By the start of epi 2 we learn that now Dany starts to identify with Viserys. At the trial she mentions him - how he and her would fantasise together what they would do to Jaime Lannister if they ever caught him. Viserys isn't her abuser anymore, but the brother who had been shortchanged by the rebellion and Jaime, her caretaker, the one who put her to bed, and told her bedtime stories, albeit very twisted ones. Does she have reasons to identify with him? Yes, she is experiencing culture shock, the way Viserys experienced it amongst the Dothraki. This seems strange, when she adapted to the Dothraki and so many other cities. But as long as a world is exotic, being different feels "logical". There might be a cultural difference, but you expect it. Dany does NOT expect to experience culture shock in Westeros, which she mentally considers her home and wants to make her home. The differences from the outside may not seem that big, but on the inside she is. She flourished amongst Dothraki, where a Khal and a Khaleesi's word is a command to follow, and the khalasar love and respect their khal and khaleesi for it. The only thing they respond to is being powerful and never show weakness. She may not look Dothraki, may not have been born amongst them, but their view and response to power is more like her own. In the North, lesser lords speak up, disagree, protest, etc to their liege lord, and make up their own mind. The trial brings that to the forefront. Here is Jaime Lannister, not just an enemy of hers, but also of Jon and Sansa, who tried to kill their own father too, and yet they want to let him live.

Jorah steps in and she tries to create a bridge between Sansa and herself directly, and despite a moment of connection, it fails, and then she witnesses a vassal of hers who had sought her in Mereen. In Mereen Theon came to her, not because he believer her to be his rightful queen, but tit-for-that ally, whereas Theon comes to fight in Winterfell for the love he bears the Starks. The sole person that Dany has who does this for her is Jorah, and she would hope and expect Jon to do the same, but he's avoiding her. She seeks Jon out and learns he's a) family (so was Viserys) b) has a bigger claim to the throne than her (so did Viserys) c) he calls her Dany (so did Viserys). And in epi 3, Jorah dies.

By the start of epi 4 she starts to feel as isolated as Viserys was amongst the Dothraki. Nobody toasts her, despite actually fighting with them, the same way Jon did, and sacrificing so much. She did the same thing Jon did, ride a dragon, and nobody rallies around her like they do to Jon. And clearly it's not just because she's a woman, since everybody cheers Arya. And it's not just Viserys' isolation she experiences. She now also experiences his envy and distrust towards a close relative. Viserys started to distrust Dany, began to believe she might decide to use the Dothraki to steal the crown for herself instead. And she feels this distrust towards Jon as well. Nor can she believe Jon's assertions that she is his queen and he would remain loyal to her, for she swore the same things to Viserys, and still sort of allowed Viserys to be crowned with a pot of molten gold, and afterwards felt that he deserved his self-sought demise and that it was all for the best, for she would make a better queen than he would be a king. Jon has everything she desires: sisters who love him, a home, Westerosi who look up to him, who chose him as their king, would love him as their king. She had people too once who wanted to make her queen, but half of the Dothraki are gone, Jorah is dead, Selmy also long gone, and then she loses her last friend - Missandei, and a dragon that Jon rode, the dragon named after Rhaegar and Jon was his son. Rhaegal's death crystallizes the expectation that Jon will turn against her, that she will lose his love.

So, by the start of epi 5, we have circumstantial depression, complete isolation, certainty (and not just fear anymore) of betrayal coming from Jon, culture shock. And she looked almost like Viserys during the first part on Dragonstone: unkept hair, no eating. If only Jon would love her like a lover, like Drogo loved her once, and he can't. And her paranoia becomes more and more justified with Varys betraying her for Jon, with Sansa having tell Tyrion, with Jaime trying to get back to Cersei. And she is angry, raging against fate stealing what she believed to be her destiny, Westeros and the people denying her what she believes she has a right to (their love, their cheers, their toasts). Instead they feel to seek shelter behind the walls of the city that her forebear Aegon the Conquerer built, of the keep that he built. It was all stolen of her and Viserys around the time she was born, and stolen by Rhaegar by begetting a son on Lyanna Stark. And she is raging over all that she tried in Essos to earn that love upon her arrival and all that she lost to earn it on Westerosi soil. She has blood lust and she has fire. And the people don't get to just surrender. They have to pay for not loving her. And no other conspiritor gets to have the spoils of her family's legacy. It's even in part a rage to Jon as well, whose real name is Aegon, like the ancestor who built the keep and the city. The only way to make it hers and hers alone is by destroying everything and then build her own city and keep in its stead. 

It's not madness. It aren't the bells. She doesn't even snap. She makes a very deliberate and conscious choice that everything and everyone in it needs to be destroyed, and that her rage deserves to be sated.

 

Quote

"A targaryen alone is a terrible thing"

 

The Targaryn's had a family history of mental illness, seemingly along the psychotic spectrum.  

So the Targaryn bloodline is susceptible to extreme mental distortion when under prolonged distress.

It is well established that early life trauma can increase a person's susceptibility to mental illness, including psychotic spectrum disorders.

Dany was plenty impulsive, and did things on occasion without really thinking of the potential outcomes (for good or bad) when she gets emotional, she can get a bit .. mentally lax.

 

Dany's early life wasn't exactly short on traumatic experiences. Her family destroyed, people suddenly changing from devoted loving, to happily betraying. Remember this is through a child's eye, a child who no longer has any close relationships with anyone, except her brother. A brother who treats her with dismissal of her feelings, with contempt, makes her out to be a thing to be traded more than a person. She loved her brother, indeed he was the only person who she believed loved her and cared for her. For quite some time, that is the only thing she had resembling something like a caring, loving relationship.

Then he sold her to a barbarian king for an army and a nice hat. A very scary looking barbarian king .. who's language she couldn't even speak.. and she was essentially dumped. Again she saw the person she was closest too, that she fully believed loved her and cared for he .. just suddenly turn and abandon her. Poof, just like that.  

And then she was likely raped by the scary barbarian.

What was her response? Essentially to play the part, to put on the mask.

Remember, during all that stuff, she was still essentially a child.

 

And then stuff happened, she started to learn that when things got emotionally difficult and hard, when people seemed like they would yet again pretend to love her and be devoted to her .. only to turn on her or abandon her .... well .. what did she learn was best?  

It was often either destroy those who abandon her, or destroy the reason why they would abandon her, or finally, put a fear in them so great that, that they will not dare abandon her.

 

Other than the Iron Throne, what was a big driving force for Dany? It seemed she really, REALLY wanted people to love her, always, to be there for her, always, to never dismiss her, to never betray her, to never cause her any bad feelings really. It seemed almost black and white in that regard. 

However, there was and still is one thing that she really, really doesn't deal well with. Being Abandoned by those she loved. When she feels abandoned by them .. she turns on them pretty quick most times.

 

Leading up to her flipping out, she was abandoned by a few, those she loved closest either betrayed her or died by others. She was feeling extremely alone, as she couldn't find that devoted love by the people she needed to feed off to fill the massive hole in her soul, the fear of abandonment.  

 

And then the man she loved, who she fully believes(d?), rejects her most intimate of advances. She was again betrayed in that moment. Jon betrayed her by telling his secret .. this would have sparked her fear of being abandoned by Jon, a Jon who would be King, A King who would have no need for an unloved Queen.

Then she discovered, for a second time, that Jon doesn't even need her in lust. Jon rejected her plea to remain silent on his linage and then rejected her plea to be intimate.. 

"A targaryen alone is a terrible thing"

Her anxieties of abandonment would have been absolutely raging. All her advisers are looking at her askew, she's super suspicious.  She had such a huge negative cognitive bias that she immediately understood the news from Tyrion about Varys  with little more than a word.. however true to Black and White thinking, she jumped straight to the worst possible outcome, that it was Jon who betrayed her and was plotting against her .. plotting to abandon her .. 

When she was informed it was Varys .. her mind being so deep in that anxious ridden negative bias, wouldn't accept the factual truth and instead allowed the distortions to continue, she continued to believe that it was Jon's, she twisted the events to justify her belief of being abandoned, that everyone will abandon her at some point, they always do (through death or betrayal).  

 

Her ultimate belief was this:

"I can take King's Landing and Westeros, and everyone will love me for it (IT MUST BE ME THAT SAVES THEM, ME!, I MUST BE LOVED!)"

 

In all of Dany's perception when sitting on the wall with her Dragon, her only Dragon .. her only love that surely .. maybe .. won't abandon her. The dragons have been the only loyal creatures to her.. and they die too and leave her alone! .. So it's only a matter of time before Drogan dies and abandons her too .. right .. and .. she knows in that moment that the bells are ringing, and her rage is peaking, and her abandonment fears are triggered pretty much as far as they will go .. and her mind is fractured from trauma and her genetic family lineage's mental coping factors are broke..And her final dream, of taking King's Landing and Westeros and having everyone love her ... was so utterly unachievable for her that her brain couldn't distort it enough to make her believe it could be true still..  

 

Well .. screw it all.

If I can't have it ... NO ONE CAN!

If you want a psychological answer that kind of works:

In my opinion, Dany had at the very least high levels of Trait Borderline Personality Disorder.

She had a deep soul destroying fear of abandonment and a fear of never being truly loved, she needed entire nations to love her in order to try fill that void .. and it didn't seem to be enough (it never is).

 

"A targaryen alone is a terrible thing"

 

[Bazox]

Wow what an episode , off to bed to try and figure out an ending , Dany sitting on the throne amid the desolation , Jon building snowmen with Sam , Arya shell shocked what will become of her ? Where is a Night King when we need one , they run the episodes in the wrong order .

 

[Moan4Yoan]

This is amazing.

 

[Moan4Yoan]

I just watched the episode again and realized that Dany told Grey Worm to wait for her signal.  At first I thought she just got pissed during the bells ringing and changed her mind but now I think she had always planned on roasting the city.

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, Harper2Sox said:

I just watched the episode again and realized that Dany told Grey Worm to wait for her signal.  At first I thought she just got pissed during the bells ringing and changed her mind but now I think she had always planned on roasting the city.

I’m rewatching it right now and Dany basically tells Tyrion she wants to burn the city because a “we don’t negotiate with terrorists” type policy (Cersei is confusing her mercy for weakness).  Combine that with her statement to Jon about needing to rule by fear and it does seem premeditated.

[Moan4Yoan]

4 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I’m rewatching it right now and Dany basically tells Tyrion she wants to burn the city because a “we don’t negotiate with terrorists” type policy (Cersei is confusing her mercy for weakness).  Combine that with her statement to Jon about needing to rule by fear and it does seem premeditated.

And when Tyrion requested that she show mercy if they ring the bells, she never responded.

[hogan873]

Finally got around to watching the episode yesterday.  Needless to say, it was difficult staying away from this thread and trying not to read articles and spoilers that pepper the internet.  Loved the episode.  I think each episode this season has been better than the previous one.

I wasn't completely surprised by Dany deciding to torch King's Landing.  And it wasn't just Missandei's death that drove her over the edge.  We could see her becoming more and more ruthless and uncaring this season.  Add to that the fact that she is the Mad King's daughter...  I could tell when Tyrion was begging her not to attack if the city surrendered that she had no intention of not attacking.  Her taking out the defenses and the iron fleet was great, but the barbequing of the citizens was a bit surprising.  She did it, starting at the far end of the city so that Cersei could see it happening.

Clegane Bowl was great.  I laughed out loud when the Mountain so quickly dispatched Qyburn.  The Hound and The Mountain dying together was really the only way to end it, and it was perfect.

Really looking forward to the last episode.  I honestly don't have an idea who will end up on the throne.  I don't think it'll be Dany, but you never know.  Maybe the show ends with the Mad Queen sitting on the throne.

[turnin' two]

6 hours ago, hogan873 said:

Finally got around to watching the episode yesterday.  Needless to say, it was difficult staying away from this thread and trying not to read articles and spoilers that pepper the internet.  Loved the episode.  I think each episode this season has been better than the previous one.

I wasn't completely surprised by Dany deciding to torch King's Landing.  And it wasn't just Missandei's death that drove her over the edge.  We could see her becoming more and more ruthless and uncaring this season.  Add to that the fact that she is the Mad King's daughter...  I could tell when Tyrion was begging her not to attack if the city surrendered that she had no intention of not attacking.  Her taking out the defenses and the iron fleet was great, but the barbequing of the citizens was a bit surprising.  She did it, starting at the far end of the city so that Cersei could see it happening.

Clegane Bowl was great.  I laughed out loud when the Mountain so quickly dispatched Qyburn.  The Hound and The Mountain dying together was really the only way to end it, and it was perfect.

Really looking forward to the last episode.  I honestly don't have an idea who will end up on the throne.  I don't think it'll be Dany, but you never know. 

 

[turnin' two]

6 hours ago, hogan873 said:

Finally got around to watching the episode yesterday.  Needless to say, it was difficult staying away from this thread and trying not to read articles and spoilers that pepper the internet.  Loved the episode.  I think each episode this season has been better than the previous one.

I wasn't completely surprised by Dany deciding to torch King's Landing.  And it wasn't just Missandei's death that drove her over the edge.  We could see her becoming more and more ruthless and uncaring this season.  Add to that the fact that she is the Mad King's daughter...  I could tell when Tyrion was begging her not to attack if the city surrendered that she had no intention of not attacking.  Her taking out the defenses and the iron fleet was great, but the barbequing of the citizens was a bit surprising.  She did it, starting at the far end of the city so that Cersei could see it happening.

Clegane Bowl was great.  I laughed out loud when the Mountain so quickly dispatched Qyburn.  The Hound and The Mountain dying together was really the only way to end it, and it was perfect.

Really looking forward to the last episode.  I honestly don't have an idea who will end up on the throne.  I don't think it'll be Dany, but you never know.  Maybe the show ends with the Mad Queen sitting on the throne.

[Chicago White Sox]

No idea what to expect tonight other than the obvious Targaryen face-off at some point.  Will there be an actual battle with Jon leading the North / other kingdoms against Dany or will whatever attempt on her life be more nuanced?

Also, while I’m not expecting Tyrion to die, it seems like that should be a logical first move for Dany once she finds out he let Jaime go.  Unless he fleas, I wonder how they work around that.

[Kyyle23]

Well goddamn he had it in him

[Panerista]

I mean, that sucked but the rest of the last two seasons were so bad there was nothing really they could do.

[southsideirish71]

The HBO tradition of taking a first class long run series and having some over thought ending that makes most angry.  They did this with the Sopranos and now they have done it with GoT.   Underwhelming.

[Panerista]

1 minute ago, southsideirish71 said:

The HBO tradition of taking a first class long run series and having some over thought ending that makes most angry.  They did this with the Sopranos and now they have done it with GoT.   Underwhelming.

Sopranos ending aged well.  This one will not.

Best 6 seasons of any show ever and 2 seasons of complete trash.  Biggest let down in television history.

[TaylorStSox]

I never thought a series of books and a show would have as big of an impact in my life as A Song of Ice and Fire. The hours and hours I've spent reading, watching and discussing it. It's the end of an era. When I started the books, I couldn't put them down. It's the only television show that was must see for me. It's been a ride.