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ADAM ENGEL MYSTERY


poppysox

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9 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Interesting. Wonder what their home to 2nd and etc times are. Billy is so much better on the bases it's amazing Engel speed is similar.

Just goes to show you there's more to it than speed, I think. Clearly stealing bases has a major skill component, but the other metrics of baserunning success that don't consider stolen bases show Hamilton is quite a bit ahead of Engel as well. That being said, those same metrics would tell you Engel is a very good baserunner but Hamilton is just special.

That being said, the difference is more dramatic defensively. Hamilton is a very good defender but Engel is really special and has added more value in many fewer innings since Statcast started keeping track.

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14 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Interesting. Wonder what their home to 2nd and etc times are. Billy is so much better on the bases it's amazing Engel speed is similar.

Also, Statcast's metrics on 90 foot runs had Engel 0.01 seconds faster than Hamilton (so basically the same) last season.

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3 minutes ago, Jake said:

Just goes to show you there's more to it than speed, I think. Clearly stealing bases has a major skill component, but the other metrics of baserunning success that don't consider stolen bases show Hamilton is quite a bit ahead of Engel as well. That being said, those same metrics would tell you Engel is a very good baserunner but Hamilton is just special.

That being said, the difference is more dramatic defensively. Hamilton is a very good defender but Engel is really special and has added more value in many fewer innings since Statcast started keeping track.

Hamilton is a hell of a defensive cfer.  Not many I'd take over him with a large enough sample size. His arm blows though.

Sprint speed is straight line speed too - which isnt as valuable when running the bases.

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 I think talent evaluation is more important to an organization than (position) player development. Another way of saying that is that player development can be overrated.   Palka and Emgel are prime examples of guys who will never be full time major league players no matter what they do in terms of preparation.   Fulmer might be in the same category - a guy who can throw hard but cannot locate his pitches consistently no matter what adjustments he makes.

On the other hand there are players like Luis Robert and Madrigal that don't need to be developed  much because they already have it.

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20 minutes ago, tray said:

 I think talent evaluation is more important to an organization than (position) player development. Another way of saying that is that player development can be overrated.   Palka and Emgel are prime examples of guys who will never be full time major league players no matter what they do in terms of preparation.   Fulmer might be in the same category - a guy who can throw hard but cannot locate his pitches consistently no matter what adjustments he makes.

On the other hand there are players like Luis Robert and Madrigal that don't need to be developed  much because they already have it.

The smartest organizations that have won a lot of games have spent loads on player development. That should be a huge tell that it matters greatly.

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14 minutes ago, bmags said:

The smartest organizations that have won a lot of games have spent loads on player development. That should be a huge tell that it matters greatly.

Those same said organizations have spent a lot of money on scouting, data analysis and etc as well. To decipher which one has had the greatest impact would require access to information we don't have.

Edited by Look at Ray Ray Run
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2 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

Look, I'm not a Sox development defender by any means, but look at Engels stats including college

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/profile.asp?ID=163282

you don't take a guy and just "make" him into a good hitter.  He wasn't a good hitter in college, the minors, and now the majors.   There is no flipping a switch, he is a good defender who occasionally gets good runs at the plate which are greatly outweighed by his bad runs

Really have to give Engel credit for making it as far as he did.

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2 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Really have to give Engel credit for making it as far as he did.

It's impressive that he made it to AAA. Anything past that, however, is more general ineptitude by the White Sox talent evaluation than Engel being worthy of any praise 

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40 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Those same said organizations have spent a lot of money on scouting, data analysis and etc as well. To decipher which one has had the greatest impact would require access to information we don't have.

It would require access to data they have, and they've spent money on it. 

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4 hours ago, poppysox said:

This guy really has great natural gifts of speed, strength and quick reactions.  Why can't someone coach him into becoming a competent hitter.  I fear the moment we cut him loose the next team will turn him into a star.  Most guys just don't have his physical gifts so I just hate that coaching can't find that key to unlock all that raw talent.  I understand that lots of guys have failed at hitting that object moving at 95 mph but not many of them have Engel's raw talents.  I keep hoping he pulls a Moncada and one day shows up with it all sinking in.

He is young and needs experience. One thing for sure is he tries hard to improve 

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3 hours ago, Jose Abreu said:

I've never understood the people who think Engel has all this untapped potential offensively. He's the worst hitter I've ever seen, literally

Literally? You’ve never seen a T-ball game? Those kids are brutal. 

 

As others have said, hitting isn’t easy. He’s a fantastic athlete, but athleticism isn’t a prerequisite for being a good hitter. 

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4 hours ago, Lillian said:

Hitting is a skill, which has very little to do with athleticism. Some of the greatest hitters have been guys who didn't have much natural athleticism, and many great athletes have failed and developing the skill. Good eye sight and strong hands are probably a lot more important than foot speed and strength. In any case, it can take a long time to learn to hit Major League pitching and few players are given that opportunity, if they don't quickly succeed. The Sox do not appear to have great coaching, to help hitters to develop the skill, which is very unfortunate, for a young team. Engel has actually had some very good at bats, lately and has hit some balls very hard.

He cannot repeat his swing. Big problem. 

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3 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said:

He has a swing that literally would make most DIII coaches cringe.  I've never seen a MLB player with less power that has such an awful long swing and bat path.  They've surely worked with him to try and get looser and more upright but as everybody noted it's not easy.  That's the swing he'll always have.  He's a decent 4th OF, nothing more nothing less.

The average golfer goes to the pro...moves his grip a little...changes his stance...he hits the ball a little better.  With a very coordinated athlete and full time coaching you would think anyone would improve a little bit.  He can leg out 50 hits a year the average guy can't.  At the end of the day...what are the coaches trying to do?  If as some suggest they've given up he doesn't belong on the team.  I guess that means management hasn't given up.

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5 minutes ago, poppysox said:

The average golfer goes to the pro...moves his grip a little...changes his stance...he hits the ball a little better.  With a very coordinated athlete and full time coaching you would think anyone would improve a little bit.  He can leg out 50 hits a year the average guy can't.  At the end of the day...what are the coaches trying to do?  If as some suggest they've given up he doesn't belong on the team.  I guess that means management hasn't given up.

Adam Engel isn't an average pro. In fact, he is not a pro. There's no reason for him to be on a major league roster that is legitimately trying to win baseball games.

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23 minutes ago, poppysox said:

The average golfer goes to the pro...moves his grip a little...changes his stance...he hits the ball a little better.  With a very coordinated athlete and full time coaching you would think anyone would improve a little bit.  He can leg out 50 hits a year the average guy can't.  At the end of the day...what are the coaches trying to do?  If as some suggest they've given up he doesn't belong on the team.  I guess that means management hasn't given up.

yea but in golf there are two huge differences:

1) player initiates swing when he's ready via waggle

2) ball isn't moving

I'd say that while both are complicated, a golf swing is easier to replicate in ideal conditions (not saying 12 on Sunday at Augusta with the wind and a 2 shot lead and Brooks and Tiger breathing down your neck...) than a baseball swing.

Engel had his swing "fixed" for a couple weeks in spring training of '18 but under pressure reverted back to the same awful mechanics.  As noted, he almost literally has no coil.  He lunges at the ball instead of turning on it and his head moves quite a bit which leads to contact issues as well as a power drain.

Edited by chitownsportsfan
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