Passing a Runner after hitting a home run

[tray]

Abreu was given credit for a single and called out when he arguably passed Tim Anderson rounding first base on a home run trot.   A rule is a rule unless it makes no sense or defies common sense, in which case you either scrap the rule or ignore it.

Once a home run leaves the yard, play is essentially halted for all purposes other than a ceremonial trot around the bases. Heretofore, no one paid much attention to how one did that.  Jimmy Piersall ran around the bases facing backwards after hitting a homer.  

I think Abreu needs to be credited with the home run and the league needs to make sure this rule is not enforced again in those circumstances. Meanwhile, that almost decided the baseball game.

Edited April 28, 2019 by tray

[Moan4Yoan]

You deserve to be punished for doing something that stupid.  How hard is it to not run past a lead runner?

[flavum]

Agree, it’s a stupid rule. If the ball is over the fence, all the runs should count. 

[Sarava]

That was just dumb. What's next, a walk off home run where the whole team mobs the guy at the plate. Are they going to challenge that since they probably don't actually touch the plate half the time (while they are being mobbed by 15 teammates near the plate)?

[Dick Allen]

Carlos May once hit a home run on opening day but missed home plate when he ran the bases. He got a triple.

[Wanne]

1 hour ago, Sarava said:

That was just dumb. What's next, a walk off home run where the whole team mobs the guy at the plate. Are they going to challenge that since they probably don't actually touch the plate half the time (while they are being mobbed by 15 teammates near the plate)?

ok...have to really look this up.  I've seen this happen somewhere...sometime.  My hops and barley soaked brain just can't put a finger on it right now...

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

23 minutes ago, Wanne said:

ok...have to really look this up.  I've seen this happen somewhere...sometime.  My hops and barley soaked brain just can't put a finger on it right now...

5/9/2016: In the bottom of the second inning, Marlins catcher J.T. Realmuto's fly to CF just cleared the fence. Marcell Ozuna returned to 1B in case the ball was caught as Realmuto rounded the 1B bag. No call was made on the play and Realmuto continued around the bases behind Ozuna, Crew chief Brian Gorman requested a review, which overturned the call to passing a runner. Realmuto was called out and Ozuna scored. Realmuto was credited with an RBI single.

4/14/2018: In the top of the fourth with runners on first and third, Deven Marrero of the Diamondbacks hit a fly to left center in Dodger Stadium that just cleared the wall. Alex Avila, the runner on first started back to the bag to tag up. Marrero briefly passed behind and beyond Avila and was called out for passing him. The play was first ruled to be a three-run homer, but the replay review reversed the call to a two-run single.

 

4/26/2019 - In the bottom of the seventh against the Tigers, the White Sox Jose Abreu hit what appeared to be a three-run homer to left center, but it did not the clear the fence by very much, so Tim Anderson went back to first to tag up. Abreu passed by him rounding first, and was called out when the Tigers challenged the play, which became a two-run single.

https://www.retrosheet.org/losthr.htm#Other

I've made other posts about this not being Abreu's fault but until I found this I didn't realize that it happens as frequently as it does. It was actually Tim's fault despite what I have seen other's post and my explanation in the And Thats a White Sox Timmy Walk off Winner thread. I have seen no explanation like mine that explains clearly why Timmy was wrong to tag up in that particular situation.

 

Edited April 28, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Lip Man 1]

20 minutes ago, Wanne said:

ok...have to really look this up.  I've seen this happen somewhere...sometime.  My hops and barley soaked brain just can't put a finger on it right now...

This may be of some help to you:

April 7, 1971 - Charlie Finley, the A’s owner, got  the first regularly scheduled opening day double header in history but was stunned when the Sox under manager Chuck Tanner beat them twice 6-5 and 12-4. Tommy John and Bart Johnson were the winning pitchers. The Sox clubbed five home runs on the day, including a grand slam by Bill Melton. It should have been six homers except that Carlos May somehow missed touching home plate on his blast. The A’s picked up on it and tagged him out when he was sitting in the dugout. "As I was rounding 3^rd base the bench was empty. I mean nobody was in the dugout, they were all at home plate. As I got towards home they mobbed me and I guess I never touched the plate. I don’t know how Gene Tenace saw that I missed it with everybody around. I was in the dugout when Tenace got a new ball, came over and tagged me and the umpire said I was out. I was embarrassed! (laughing)” 

This was also Harry Caray’s first regular season game as Sox announcer although at the time not a whole lot of folks could hear him. Three straight awful years caused the Sox to lose their radio contract with any ‘mainstream’ Chicago station. For the next two years Sox games were broadcast on WTAQ (LaGrange) and WEAW (Evanston), two low powered stations.

And here's the last time that I know of you had a situation like what happened Friday night for the Sox:

June 24, 1977 – It was an embarrassing moment for Sox outfielder Ralph Garr and, as it turned out, a costly one for the team. In the third inning of a game in Minnesota, Garr hit what appeared to be a three run home run... however as he was running the bases he passed catcher Jim Essian who waited at first base to make sure the ball was, in fact, a home run. Garr was called out for passing the runner and awarded a two run single. The Sox wound up losing the game 7-6.

[tray]

You cannot un-ring a bell.  After  you hit a home run, you should never be called out on the base path.  There is no live ball at that point.  Baserunners cannot be tagged out. Play is halted.   Rounding the bases is strictly ceremonial and  celebratory or at least that is the way it should be.

MLB changed the rule requiring 4 pitches for a walk.  This nonsensical interpretation of the rules  should be changed as well. Once that ball sails over the fence it is a home run. Fans don't wait to celebrate and the fireworks aren't held up until the baserunners round the bases and it is determined that  the batter did not pass a baserunner, even by a foot. 

That was an interpretation of a rule that diminished the game on a few levels. 

 

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

3 hours ago, Harper2Sox said:

You deserve to be punished for doing something that stupid.  How hard is it to not run past a lead runner?

It was Tim's fault  not Abreu's and here are 3 reasons why. You have to know the situation 1st, Tim on 1st , Moncada on 3rd  1 out.

Reason 1: If the ball is caught and you attempt to tag up you risk a double play if you get tagged out at 2nd before the runner on 3rd touches home plate. Then you get no runs at all. Considering the runner on 3rd will usually just jog home on a long fly ball that is caught. I have seen this happen before.

Reason 2: If you go back to first to tag up and the ball is not caught but stays in the park you more than likely won't make it to 3rd base because you are starting from 1st base instead of being at least halfway to 2nd. If the fielder recovers the ball quickly you more than likely only make it to 2nd base . If you go halfway you likely make it to third base. If the ball bounces away from the fielder you might make it to 3rd base  when you could've scored if you go at least halfway.

Reason 3: We saw reason 3. You run the risk of being passed by the runner and that also happens more than we think. I gave 2 examples from 2016 and 2018 and a link to more. Lip also provided a few more examples.

So you see in that particular situation Tim needs to go at least halfway to 2nd base and all those reason are avoided.

Learn baseball and think.

Edited April 28, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[tray]

The ball was gone when Abreu slightly passed Tim on the bases. Fireworks were going off and the fans were going crazy.

This was an enforcement of a technicality as a result of Detroit's appeal,,and one that should no longer be the rule. 

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 minute ago, tray said:

You cannot un-ring a bell.  After  you hit a home run, you should never be called out on the base path.  There is no live ball at that point.  Baserunners cannot be tagged out. Play is halted.   Rounding the bases is strictly ceremonial and  celebratory or at least that is the way it should be.

MLB changed the rule requiring 4 pitches for a walk.  This nonsensical interpretation of the rules  should be changed as well. Once that ball sails over the fence it is a home run. Fans don't wait to celebrate and the fireworks aren't held up until the baserunners round the bases and it is determined that  the batter did not pass a baserunner, even by a foot. 

That was an interpretation of a rule that diminished the game on a few levels. 

 

 

I believe there used to be a rule when you hit a HR with runner or runners on base that won the game only the winning run counted and you lost the HR. They changed that rule though I don't know what year . When Barry Bonds was chasing the all time HR record. I think MLB restored about 50 Hank Aaron HR's that were wiped out by rules like that.

Robin Ventura in the 1999 NLCS with the Mets hit a walk off grand slam in a 3-3 game but was only credited with a game winning single when his team mates mobbed him before he could reach 2nd base and he never completed the HR trot around the bases. Instead of the final score being 7-3 it became 4-3.

[tray]

I think mlb should also address what constitutes unacceptable bat flipping and excessive celebration following a home run.  What Tim did against KC and then against Detroit (throwing his bat toward his own dugout) did not seem like it was intended to show up the other team. You have to be able to celebrate a home run within some acceptable boundaries.

[tray]

Thanks Cali and everyone for your excellent comments and historical perspective. I forgot about or did not know about the other examples and the rules changes.

[Moan4Yoan]

12 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

It was Tim's fault  not Abreu's and here are 3 reasons why. You have to know the situation 1st, Tim on 1st , Moncada on 3rd  1 out.

Reason 1: If the ball is caught and you attempt to tag up you risk a double play if you get tagged out at 2nd before the runner on 3rd touches home plate. Then you get no runs at all. Considering the runner on 3rd will usually just jog home on a long fly ball that is caught. I have seen this happen before.

Reason 2: If you go back to first to tag up and the ball is not caught but stays in the park you more than likely won't make it to 3rd base because you are starting from 1st base instead of being at least halfway to 2nd. If the fielder recovers the ball quickly you more than likely only make it to 2nd base . If you go halfway you likely make it to third base. If the ball bounces away from the fielder you might make it to 3rd base  when you could've scored if you go at least halfway.

Reason 3: We saw reason 3. You run the risk of being passed by the runner and that also happens more than we think. I gave 2 examples from 2016 and 2018 and a link to more. Lip also provided a few more examples.

So you see in that particular situation Tim needs to go at least halfway to 2nd base and all those reason are avoided.

Learn baseball and think.

And Abreu still ran past Anderson on his homerun trot.  Both are at fault.  Stupid either way.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

7 hours ago, Harper2Sox said:

And Abreu still ran past Anderson on his homerun trot.  Both are at fault.  Stupid either way.

He mainly ran past him because like everyone else he is watching the flight of the ball and then also looking down to make sure he touches 1st base. He also didn't expect Tim to still be standing at 1st base because of the 3 reasons I gave. 3/4 Tim's fault 1/4 Abreu if i had to break it down  using quarters to represent the 4 bases.

Might even throw some blame Daryl Bostons way. He's the 1st base coach . He should be telling Abreu hold up don't pass Timmy. Coach should be coaching not being a spectator. Even worse if Boston yelled at Timmy to come back and tag up. or didn't tell Tim ahead of time to go halfway on a long fly ball and definitely don't try to tag up.

Edited April 28, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[poppysox]

6 hours ago, tray said:

You cannot un-ring a bell.  After  you hit a home run, you should never be called out on the base path.  There is no live ball at that point.  Baserunners cannot be tagged out. Play is halted.   Rounding the bases is strictly ceremonial and  celebratory or at least that is the way it should be.

MLB changed the rule requiring 4 pitches for a walk.  This nonsensical interpretation of the rules  should be changed as well. Once that ball sails over the fence it is a home run. Fans don't wait to celebrate and the fireworks aren't held up until the baserunners round the bases and it is determined that  the batter did not pass a baserunner, even by a foot. 

That was an interpretation of a rule that diminished the game on a few levels. 

 

 

Baseball is experimenting with many things as noted here.  Surly getting rid of dumb rules like passing the runner in front qualifies as something that needs changing.  Having that play reviewed took extra time that MLB has been trying to eliminate.

[Sarava]

That play reminds me of NHL teams challenging offsides on a goal against, when it happened 40 seconds earlier and had nothing to do with the play. Detroit should be embarrassed for challenging this. Just man up and accept that you gave up a long ball and move on.

[flavum]

57 minutes ago, Sarava said:

That play reminds me of NHL teams challenging offsides on a goal against, when it happened 40 seconds earlier and had nothing to do with the play. Detroit should be embarrassed for challenging this. Just man up and accept that you gave up a long ball and move on.

Tigers did nothing wrong. Every team would have done the same thing, because it is a rule that everyone knows. It’s just a rule that doesn’t need to be enforced if the ball is over the wall. If every team would accept the rule change going forward, and I think they would, it’s definitely one worth changing because there’s nothing a fielder can do once the ball is over the wall on the fly.

[Southwest Sider]

41 minutes ago, flavum said:

Tigers did nothing wrong. Every team would have done the same thing, because it is a rule that everyone knows. It’s just a rule that doesn’t need to be enforced if the ball is over the wall. If every team would accept the rule change going forward, and I think they would, it’s definitely one worth changing because there’s nothing a fielder can do once the ball is over the wall on the fly.

For some reason unbeknownst to me, I have serious doubts the White Sox would challenge such a thing.  

[poppysox]

As long as this is the rule.... I believe a competent manager should challenge.  Its not up to the competition to protect you from your own silly mistakes.  I don't like this rule but until it's changed you need to pay attention to what is going on around you.  Major leaguers making these mistakes is rather embarrassing.

[flavum]

19 minutes ago, South Sider said:

For some reason unbeknownst to me, I have serious doubts the White Sox would challenge such a thing.  

They would if they noticed it. 

The overall rule change should be- Once a ball is over the wall, the act of rounding the bases for the hitter and other runners is just ceremonial.

Runners could have missed bases or passed each other, umpires don’t need to stick around on game ending homers to see if the bags and plate are touched. 

If they can skip throwing pitches on an intentional walk, this is a rule that can be changed too.

Edited April 28, 2019 by flavum

[NWINFan]

12 hours ago, flavum said:

Agree, it’s a stupid rule. If the ball is over the fence, all the runs should count. 

It may be a stupid rule, but it is a rule, and the players should know to adhere to it.  This was a base running mistake and it cost the Sox a run as it should have. If MLB wants to change the rule, fine, but as long as it stands, it should be enforced.

[flavum]

2 minutes ago, NWINFan said:

It may be a stupid rule, but it is a rule, and the players should know to adhere to it.  This was a base running mistake and it cost the Sox a run as it should have. If MLB wants to change the rule, fine, but as long as it stands, it should be enforced.

Agreed, I’m not suggesting Abreu should be awarded a homer now or in the future for that play. Just change a nonsense rule for the future.

[harkness99]

This is an example of why baseball struggles to fix its issues.

First off - when a player hits a home run, he shouldn't even have to run around the bases. I know tradition will not likely let this ever occur, but it's a waste of time.

secondly - the rule needs to be removed it has no point, basically the entire play is a dead ball situation that is just ceremonial. It also calls for a replay which takes more time.

MLB acts like it really wants the game to be faster, but then does nothing that actually makes it faster

 

I think for the rest of the season our players should just make a conga line every time someone makes a home run with runners on,  to make sure they don't pass each other and they can do some dancing and kicking as they round the bases.