Passing a Runner after hitting a home run

[HoosierSox]

Just make it like they do in softball leagues. Once it's called a home run you don't even have to run the bases. Its ceremonial anyway. 

[southsideirish71]

The rule doesn't need to be changed.  This not passing the runner thing is covered at length before a kid is 9 years old.  Right after run to first, then take a left and go to the next base.  Its a home run not a bang-bang play that required some thought.  Don't pass up the guy wearing the same uniform as you.  Its not rocket science.   

 

[flavum]

7 minutes ago, southsideirish71 said:

The rule doesn't need to be changed.  This not passing the runner thing is covered at length before a kid is 9 years old.  Right after run to first, then take a left and go to the next base.  Its a home run not a bang-bang play that required some thought.  Don't pass up the guy wearing the same uniform as you.  Its not rocket science.   

 

But once every couple years, some weird play happens in baseball that a homerun comes off the board when it doesn’t have to. You’re right, it’s a bonehead play, but stuff happens. If the ball is over the fence, what’s left to do? Put the runs on the board, and end it.

[southsideirish71]

12 minutes ago, flavum said:

But once every couple years, some weird play happens in baseball that a homerun comes off the board when it doesn’t have to. You’re right, it’s a bonehead play, but stuff happens. If the ball is over the fence, what’s left to do? Put the runs on the board, and end it.

What if the runner never touches home plate, or misses bases all together.   This isn't that hard.  Obviously it doesn't happen that much and we shouldn't have to go through the motions to make the game safe for those who do stupid things from time to time.   In a HS game this year I saw a runner on a hit and run miss 2nd returning back to first on a ball caught deep in the outfield.  He was safe at first.  The appeal to the umps called him out because he missed 2nd.  Lots of rules like this.  Hell the stupid drop 3rd strike rule as a former pitcher I think is dumb.  We reward a guy who swung at a pitch so bad a catcher couldn't handle it.   Yet it happens.  

And more to the point what the hell is our 1st base coach doing besides sleeping over there.  That's part of the job is to be aware of things like this.  Like why are you tagging up, hey don't pass the runner he is still there.  

[Moan4Yoan]

57 minutes ago, southsideirish71 said:

The rule doesn't need to be changed.  This not passing the runner thing is covered at length before a kid is 9 years old.  Right after run to first, then take a left and go to the next base.  Its a home run not a bang-bang play that required some thought.  Don't pass up the guy wearing the same uniform as you.  Its not rocket science.   

 

Exactly.

[Moan4Yoan]

14 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

It was Tim's fault  not Abreu's and here are 3 reasons why. You have to know the situation 1st, Tim on 1st , Moncada on 3rd  1 out.

Reason 1: If the ball is caught and you attempt to tag up you risk a double play if you get tagged out at 2nd before the runner on 3rd touches home plate. Then you get no runs at all. Considering the runner on 3rd will usually just jog home on a long fly ball that is caught. I have seen this happen before.

Reason 2: If you go back to first to tag up and the ball is not caught but stays in the park you more than likely won't make it to 3rd base because you are starting from 1st base instead of being at least halfway to 2nd. If the fielder recovers the ball quickly you more than likely only make it to 2nd base . If you go halfway you likely make it to third base. If the ball bounces away from the fielder you might make it to 3rd base  when you could've scored if you go at least halfway.

Reason 3: We saw reason 3. You run the risk of being passed by the runner and that also happens more than we think. I gave 2 examples from 2016 and 2018 and a link to more. Lip also provided a few more examples.

So you see in that particular situation Tim needs to go at least halfway to 2nd base and all those reason are avoided.

Learn baseball and think.

FYI per today's game, Steve Stone said that Abreu took the blame for running past Anderson and Stone agreed it was Abreu's fault, not Anderson's.

Edited April 28, 2019 by Harper2Sox

[Jose Abreu]

15 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

It was Tim's fault  not Abreu's and here are 3 reasons why. You have to know the situation 1st, Tim on 1st , Moncada on 3rd  1 out.

Reason 1: If the ball is caught and you attempt to tag up you risk a double play if you get tagged out at 2nd before the runner on 3rd touches home plate. Then you get no runs at all. Considering the runner on 3rd will usually just jog home on a long fly ball that is caught. I have seen this happen before.

This doesn't apply to Tim Anderson. Absolutely no shot that any left fielder throws him out tagging to second from the warning track. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

21 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

This doesn't apply to Tim Anderson. Absolutely no shot that any left fielder throws him out tagging to second from the warning track. 

Yes it does because you still have the other 2 reasons not to do it. Why even take the chance that you get thrown out with a runner on 3rd who will score easily ?

[Jose Abreu]

Just now, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Yes it does because you still have the other 2 reasons not to do it. Why even take the chance that you get thrown out with a runner on 3rd who will score easily ?

Because you're not taking any risk. Anderson isn't getting thrown out tagging up to 2nd because he's Tim Anderson. If we were talking about Abreu or Alonso on first base then things would be different. 

[poppysox]

3 hours ago, Harper2Sox said:

FYI per today's game, Steve Stone said that Abreu took the blame for running past Anderson and Stone agreed it was Abreu's fault, not Anderson's.

The 1st base coach is not blame free IMO.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

7 hours ago, Harper2Sox said:

FYI per today's game, Steve Stone said that Abreu took the blame for running past Anderson and Stone agreed it was Abreu's fault, not Anderson's.

Oh I know Abreu took the blame but Stone's a pitcher . What does he know about base running? I think those 3 reasons I gave are pretty solid and indisputable why you don't tag up in that particular situation.

[SoxBlanco]

7 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Oh I know Abreu took the blame but Stone's a pitcher . What does he know about base running? I think those 3 reasons I gave are pretty solid and indisputable why you don't tag up in that particular situation.

Those three reasons were not solid, and you absolutely tag up in that situation. The ball was hit very high. In that situation, there’s a 99% chance that the ball is either caught or it leaves the park. Anderson did the right thing by going back to tag. I said as much in the game thread, and I stick by it. There is no way that is Timmy’s fault. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

6 hours ago, Jose Abreu said:

Because you're not taking any risk. Anderson isn't getting thrown out tagging up to 2nd because he's Tim Anderson. If we were talking about Abreu or Alonso on first base then things would be different. 

Actually nothing is risk free. What's more important the runner scoring the tying run  from 3rd or Tim risking a DP? There's your answer. With no outs sure go ahead I suppose though you risk losing the extra bases if its not caught and also risk the HR hitter passing you if it goes out. This is the 3rd time it's happened since 2016 and each time it was because the runner stayed or went back to tag up.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

12 minutes ago, SoxBlanco said:

Those three reasons were not solid, and you absolutely tag up in that situation. The ball was hit very high. In that situation, there’s a 99% chance that the ball is either caught or it leaves the park. Anderson did the right thing by going back to tag. I said as much in the game thread, and I stick by it. There is no way that is Timmy’s fault. 

Not solid ? They are indisputable. As a runner those are your choices. You don't say oh it's hit high so it's either going to be caught or go out. If it's that close to going out that means an OF might have to jump to catch it near the top of the wall. That is not  99% guarantee that he catches it . Far from it in fact. You stick by yours . I stick by mine and agree to disagree. 3 reasons not to tag up in a 1 out men on 1st and 3rd situation is about as solid as you get. The situation and 150+ years of time tested baseball knowledge warrants it not how high the ball is hit and some mythical 99% chance you made up.

Edited April 29, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Jose Abreu]

16 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Actually nothing is risk free. What's more important the runner scoring the tying run  from 3rd or Tim risking a DP? There's your answer. With no outs sure go ahead I suppose though you risk losing the extra bases if its not caught and also risk the HR hitter passing you if it goes out. This is the 3rd time it's happened since 2016 and each time it was because the runner stayed or went back to tag up.

Sure it's not 100% risk-free but it's so close to it that the difference is negligible. What you keep missing in these responses is Tim Anderson's speed. He wasn't getting thrown out on a tag up because he's too fast to be thrown out at second on even a good throw from the warning track in left field, and that's if the fielder even goes to second as opposed to the cut-off man 

[SoxBlanco]

16 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Not solid ? They are indisputable. As a runner those are your choices. You don't say oh it's hit high so it's either going to be caught or go out. If it's that close to going out that means an OF might have to jump to catch it near the top of the wall. That is not  99% guarantee that he catches it . Far from it in fact. You stick by yours . I stick by mine and agree to disagree. 3 reasons not to tag up in a 1 out men on 1st and 3rd situation is about as solid as you get. The situation warrants it not how high the ball is hit and some mythical 99% chance you made up.

You keep calling your three reasons solid, and they just aren’t. 

1. Anderson is not getting thrown out at second if he tags. Zero chance. Terrible first reason.

2. This reason sucks, too. That ball was not going to fall in the field of play. Was 99% a mythical number? Absolutely. But I was trying to get the point across that that ball was either going to be a home run or be caught. I’m not sure how you could watch that play and think otherwise. Did you notice how Anderson started by going halfway? Then as the LF was starting to settle at the wall, he ran back to tag. That’s because Timmy has baseball instincts, which you clearly don’t. 

3. You saved the worst reason for last. And that’s saying a lot, considering how terrible your first two reasons were. You actually think a baserunner should consider whether the runner behind might pass him when determining what to do? Ridiculous. 

The funniest part about your post is that you said, “Learn baseball and think.”  You obviously have no baseball sense. 

Edited April 29, 2019 by SoxBlanco

[SoxBlanco]

7 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

Sure it's not 100% risk-free but it's so close to it that the difference is negligible. What you keep missing in these responses is Tim Anderson's speed. He wasn't getting thrown out on a tag up because he's too fast to be thrown out at second on even a good throw from the warning track in left field, and that's if the fielder even goes to second as opposed to the cut-off man 

But but but...this is the third time since 2016 that this has happened!!  Three times in about 8,000 games! We should definitely be basing our base running decisions on that. 

I cant even believe I have to argue this. It’s not even debatable. No chance it was Tim’s fault. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I can't believe I actually have to explain this to you two again. I will make it as simple as I can for you.

The primary goal is to win the game. I think we can agree on that. 1st and 3rd 1 out bottom of the 7th inning down by 1 run.

What is the primary goal is that situation ? To score the the tying run of course. You cannot win the game unless you first tie it. Anything that jeopardizes tying the game is not a judgement call. I don't care how fast Tim is. I don't care how high the ball was hit and if you think there's some 99% chance it either going out or being caught. How many times do you have to see an outfielder mis-time his jump , or have some part of his body like his back or shoulder hit the wall preventing him from reaching an apex on that jump? How many times do you have to see a ball go in and out of a glove when a fielder hits the wall to understand that not making the catch is a very real possibility. Would we like to see Tim tag on on a caught ball and get the potential go ahead run into scoring position.? Yes we do but not at the expense of the tying run. If that tying run does not score you might not ever get the chance to win the game, Go half way like the situation dictates and since there is a much better than 1 % chance that the ball is not caught that potential go ahead run gets to 2nd easily or 3rd or even home .

Tagging up is a judgement call negated by the fact that it risks the tying run from scoring. Have we seen that happen also . Yes we have.

You are making a judgement call saying that ball was either being caught or a HR . The fact that you used hyberbole to try to strengthen you argument is a huge flaw when you ignore the fact that there is an in between choice that the ball could be over the fence, a fielder gets his glove on it but doesn't catch it. That is not your call to make. All I did was present facts. I did not make anything up. The situation the inning, the outs, the score the fact that the ball will be a HR, caught or not caught are all facts. You make up your own facts. That ball is either going out or being caught is not a fact it is your guess. Timmy being too fast to be doubled up and preventing the tying run from scoring is a guess not a fact.

So my facts take precedent over your guesses. Tie the game 1st then worry about winning it. You cannot win what you 1st can not tie. Sure lets just throw all those years of baseball knowledge away that says in that situation you go halfway. Let's glorify the individual doing his thing based on your guesswork and risk that tying run from scoring. Yea that makes sense.

Abreu did the best thing he could possibly do in that situation. He hit a 3 run HR to put his team up by 2 runs. How can you possibly blame him ??

So again learn baseball and think . Don't guess.

Edited April 29, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

SO let's also look at this from the 3 possible outcomes if Tim goes halfway

1. Its a HR. Tim goes halfway and there's no problem. it's 3 run HR and the Sox lead 12-10 .A good thing

2. The one you ignored. The ball is not caught. Tim goes halfway to 2nd. and makes it to third or even scores depending on how quickly the OF recovers the ball. The tying run scores from 3rd . Tim possibly scores from 1st. Maybe he is thrown out at home  but at least the score is tied  with the possible outcome being at 3rd or scoring pretty good by going halfway.

3. The ball is caught. Moncada jogs home with the tying run. Tim goes back to 1st base. The game is now tied with a speedy runner who can steal on 1st. also a good thing.

Now lets look at the outcomes if Tim  tried to tag. up.

1. It's a HR but Abreu doesn't see Tim because he is watching the ball and looking to touch 1st base . Abreu loses a HR . The Sox lose a run and an out and have a 1 run lead instead of 2. Oh look the Tigers scored 1 run to tie it up in the top of the 8th and it's anybody's game now. Not a great thing. In fact it's a terrible thing. You make the point of making fun of me because I present you with the fact that it happened before but it happened to us that day. And it's tragically comically bad and couldv'e been prevented by Timmy going halfway.

2.  The one you ignored.The ball is not caught . Tim is at 1st so the fielder recovers the ball quickly and he only makes it to 2nd base. The tying run scores from 3rd now 2 outs. The OF doesn't  catch it. He falls against the wall the ball bounces away and Timmy makes it to 3rd base . Definitely not as good a result as the same situation with Timmy going halfway. An extra 45+ft. is a lot better advantage when running the bases on a ball not caught.

3. The ball is caught. Timmy tags up and is thrown out at 2nd base before Moncada scores from 3rd. The worst possible outcome. Double play inning over no runs scored, still down a run. It's also possible Timmy could be thrown out but Moncada scores. Also possible Moncada scores and Timmy is safe at 2nd and in scoring position.

Now tell me which of the the 2 groups of three would you prefer? I didn't guess at anything. All I did was list possible outcomes. Seems like an easy choice . The 1st group of 3 is the better option. It contains the best possible outcome. The 2nd group contains the worst possible outcome

The 1st group the tying run always scores. The 2nd group the tying run might not score.

The 1st group the Sox still lead when the Tigers score 1 run in the 8th. The 2nd group that 1 run either ties or puts the Tigers ahead.

Edited April 29, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

16 hours ago, Harper2Sox said:

FYI per today's game, Steve Stone said that Abreu took the blame for running past Anderson and Stone agreed it was Abreu's fault, not Anderson's.

It was 100% Abreu's fault. The trail runner is responsible for knowing where the lead runner is - that's literally all there is to it. The trail runner has the lead runner in front of him while the lead runners job is to focus on the play in front of him.

I said it then but this isnt even queationable. Cali you're breaking this down far too much. It's as simple as the trial runner needs to always know where the lead runner is. That's baseball fundamentals 101.

Edited April 29, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[SCCWS]

9 hours ago, SoxBlanco said:

You keep calling your three reasons solid, and they just aren’t. 

1. Anderson is not getting thrown out at second if he tags. Zero chance. Terrible first reason.

2. This reason sucks, too. That ball was not going to fall in the field of play. Was 99% a mythical number? Absolutely. But I was trying to get the point across that that ball was either going to be a home run or be caught. I’m not sure how you could watch that play and think otherwise. Did you notice how Anderson started by going halfway? Then as the LF was starting to settle at the wall, he ran back to tag. That’s because Timmy has baseball instincts, which you clearly don’t. 

3. You saved the worst reason for last. And that’s saying a lot, considering how terrible your first two reasons were. You actually think a baserunner should consider whether the runner behind might pass him when determining what to do? Ridiculous. 

The funniest part about your post is that you said, “Learn baseball and think.”  You obviously have no baseball sense. 

Very unlikely but not zero chance. Suppose Anderson trips and falls running to 2nd or overslides the bag on a throw.   

If they are to remove this rule, they would also have to remove the rule for ground rule doubles where again the ball has left the park.  

[Dick Allen]

It was Abreu's fault. He had TA in front of him. He probably should have pulled up before he hit 1B.  

[Jose Abreu]

7 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

3. The ball is caught. Timmy tags up and is thrown out at 2nd base.

No, you can’t keep saying this. You can’t tell me “I don’t care how fast Tim is” and then say that. You’re just completely ignoring his speed to suit your narrative. This scenario would not have happened, unless Tim tripped while running or something, which is so unlikely that it’s not even worth discussing. 

[Iwritecode]

22 hours ago, southsideirish71 said:

Hell the stupid drop 3rd strike rule as a former pitcher I think is dumb.  We reward a guy who swung at a pitch so bad a catcher couldn't handle it.   Yet it happens.  

My wife hates this rule and constantly complains about it. My explanation is that every other recorded out in the game requires the ball to end up in somebody's glove. If the ball is laying out the ground or even hits the ground first, it can't be recorded as an out.

I actually like the fact that it's still recorded as a strikeout though because it's still the 3rd strike in the AB.

[mqr]

On 4/28/2019 at 9:58 AM, harkness99 said:

This is an example of why baseball struggles to fix its issues.

First off - when a player hits a home run, he shouldn't even have to run around the bases. I know tradition will not likely let this ever occur, but it's a waste of time.

secondly - the rule needs to be removed it has no point, basically the entire play is a dead ball situation that is just ceremonial. It also calls for a replay which takes more time.

MLB acts like it really wants the game to be faster, but then does nothing that actually makes it faster

 

I think for the rest of the season our players should just make a conga line every time someone makes a home run with runners on,  to make sure they don't pass each other and they can do some dancing and kicking as they round the bases.

 

I’m almost always for pace of play changes, but getting rid of the home run trot is an absolute non-starter