poppysox Posted May 2, 2019 Share Posted May 2, 2019 3 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: I keep wondering where the idea came from to get a bunch of guys that Machado had good relationships with. Was it the whole front office ? Was it Hahn's , Kenny's or even Jerry's Idea. We have to remember that not only was it Alonso and Jay but Castillo earlier , then Colome and Nova who were on the WBC team with him. Did that friends and family plan start with Castillo and then they expanded it knowing all along they weren't likely to offer top dollars for him ? Obviously it ended in tragedy and if that was the plan starting with Castillo .Then Hahn, Kenny and Jerry all suck. But I have said all along that it's mostly Reinsdorf and I'm sticking with that. We have to remember that Reinsdorf is loyal above all else and it could be he saw in Machado the same traits and formulated a plan that loyalty might win out of money. The fatal flaw in that thinking probably was if Reinsdorf was in the same position what would he do ? I 'm pretty confident in saying Jerry would've taken the bigger guaranteed payday too. JR is a very actively involved owner. He doesn't hire a guy and say go get me a championship. He is actively involved with the day to day player moves unlike most owners. Part of his loyalty to these guys is because he is part of the trio involved in player acquisition. He believes in group think management. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarava Posted May 4, 2019 Share Posted May 4, 2019 On 5/2/2019 at 4:20 PM, SleepyWhiteSox said: This hate feels misguided. Shoulda been a reinsdorf thread, Did Reinsdorf trade Tatis Jr. for a garbage pitcher? They all deserve scorn. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timmy U Posted May 4, 2019 Share Posted May 4, 2019 On 5/2/2019 at 5:20 PM, SleepyWhiteSox said: This hate feels misguided. Shoulda been a reinsdorf thread, Why not both?! Seriously, one big key to rebuilds is drafting. During this tank process, who's the best first rounder they've chosen? Anderson is before the tank. Is it Collins? Meanwhile, Gorman and Kelenic are tearing it up and they'll be in A+ by the all star break. I really believe this entire front office should probably go. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mqr Posted May 4, 2019 Share Posted May 4, 2019 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Timmy U said: Why not both?! Seriously, one big key to rebuilds is drafting. During this tank process, who's the best first rounder they've chosen? Anderson is before the tank. Is it Collins? Meanwhile, Gorman and Kelenic are tearing it up and they'll be in A+ by the all star break. I really believe this entire front office should probably go. They’ve only had 2 rebuild draft picks. (You could argue that they’ve really only had one.) One was bad, on the jury is very much out on Edited May 4, 2019 by mqr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba phillips Posted May 4, 2019 Share Posted May 4, 2019 On 5/2/2019 at 12:36 PM, Dick Allen said: He actually should be a hero. White Sox fans like to complain. He's given us many reasons. Rick reminds me of the guys that used to make Dick Vitale's all airport team. Guys who looked good at the airport but couldn't play worth a damn. Rick is a bright guy, talks a good game, makes everything seem to make a lot of sense, and then loses,and loses, and loses. He looks and sounds the part, but the evidence suggests he should be doing something else. Could also be describing K. Williams. No wonder they're such a great FO team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted May 4, 2019 Share Posted May 4, 2019 We will be fine after all the injured players and prospects are healthy. I can’t see blaming one guy when I am sure the team strategy is a consensus of all top management 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ottawa_sox Posted May 4, 2019 Share Posted May 4, 2019 (edited) 33 minutes ago, elrockinMT said: We will be fine after all the injured players and prospects are healthy. I can’t see blaming one guy when I am sure the team strategy is a consensus of all top management I agree. Getting healthy players and prospects back is the key. Shit happens and blaming management for bad luck seems misguided. But I do put more blame on one guy in management. The Chairman has the final say. The Machado fiasco was demoralising. What if another owner, with a willingness to open his pocketbook (what did the Padre owner say - something like "I had to do it for the fans"), oversaw the operations. I don't think Hahn would have nearly as much stink on him. How would Hahn do with a ballclub that had an owner that did not hamstring him. At least the team philosophies regarding international spending, player development and analytics have been trending upwards recently under our three headed monster. Too early to tell how it's turning out. Edited May 4, 2019 by ottawa_sox 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted May 4, 2019 Share Posted May 4, 2019 29 minutes ago, ottawa_sox said: I agree. Getting healthy players and prospects back is the key. Shit happens and blaming management for bad luck seems misguided. But I do put more blame on one guy in management. The Chairman has the final say. The Machado fiasco was demoralising. What if another owner, with a willingness to open his pocketbook (what did the Padre owner say - something like "I had to do it for the fans"), oversaw the operations. I don't think Hahn would have nearly as much stink on him. How would Hahn do with a ballclub that had an owner that did not hamstring him. At least the team philosophies regarding international spending, player development and analytics have been trending upwards recently under our three headed monster. Too early to tell how it's turning out. At some point...a long series of injuries and failed prospects cannot be considered bad luck. We're not to that point yet, but we're on the edge of it. For example - it could be that acquiring pitching prospects en masse is fundamentally flawed because you can't develop them or keep them healthy. It could be that you acquire talented players but you neglect the training and development staff and facilities, causing a lot of injuries at all levels. It could be that your scouting department is weak and that even though you thought you were getting decent players, you were getting schooled by other GMs who specifically gave you guys that they were only willing to part with because their former teams thought they were likely to bust or get hurt. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ottawa_sox Posted May 4, 2019 Share Posted May 4, 2019 46 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: At some point...a long series of injuries and failed prospects cannot be considered bad luck. We're not to that point yet, but we're on the edge of it. For example - it could be that acquiring pitching prospects en masse is fundamentally flawed because you can't develop them or keep them healthy. It could be that you acquire talented players but you neglect the training and development staff and facilities, causing a lot of injuries at all levels. It could be that your scouting department is weak and that even though you thought you were getting decent players, you were getting schooled by other GMs who specifically gave you guys that they were only willing to part with because their former teams thought they were likely to bust or get hurt. I feel like it took Hahn 2 years to convince Reinsdorf / Williams to stop 'going for it' with over-the-hill, off-season fill-ins. So we've had a lot of change in 3 years - Hostetler / Getz/ Paddy. 3 years feels like approaching the edge for me too. And I get the development / injury angle, but I always feel squeamish when an injury results in a finger quickly being pointed at someone in management. You would think mostly it's just plain bad luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted May 4, 2019 Share Posted May 4, 2019 4 minutes ago, ottawa_sox said: I feel like it took Hahn 2 years to convince Reinsdorf / Williams to stop 'going for it' with over-the-hill, off-season fill-ins. So we've had a lot of change in 3 years - Hostetler / Getz/ Paddy. 3 years feels like approaching the edge for me too. And I get the development / injury angle, but I always feel squeamish when an injury results in a finger quickly being pointed at someone in management. You would think mostly it's just plain bad luck. A few injuries, even a year where you're really banged up, fine. After last year, we've now had Eloy, Rodon, and Dunning go down in less than a month of the regular season this year. If you go to the Futuresox top 20 from 2017, when the White Sox had the #1 system in baseball, 7 of them are either currently hurt or are rehabbing injuries from last year, a couple are completely out of our franchise or have busted, a few are struggling, out of that top 20 the only guys that we are genuinely happy with right now are Robert, Moncada, and Cease. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ottawa_sox Posted May 4, 2019 Share Posted May 4, 2019 22 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: A few injuries, even a year where you're really banged up, fine. After last year, we've now had Eloy, Rodon, and Dunning go down in less than a month of the regular season this year. If you go to the Futuresox top 20 from 2017, when the White Sox had the #1 system in baseball, 7 of them are either currently hurt or are rehabbing injuries from last year, a couple are completely out of our franchise or have busted, a few are struggling, out of that top 20 the only guys that we are genuinely happy with right now are Robert, Moncada, and Cease. For me, the 'couple' and the 'few' might be within the norm. But the 7 is not. Still, pitchers with elbow problems that throw 100 don't seem to favour one jersey over another. And we have Hansen/Burdi/Kopech. Discouraging, but maybe only screwing the the timeline a bit. The ruptured achilles is a concensus long time wear and tear issue. We seemed to be an organization that for years escaped a lot of injuries. It's bound to momentarily sway the other way at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted May 4, 2019 Author Share Posted May 4, 2019 (edited) Alonso and Nova are a complete waste of $18M. Thanks, Rick. Edited May 5, 2019 by Jack Parkman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted May 5, 2019 Author Share Posted May 5, 2019 (edited) I honestly don't know what to think, but I'm leaning toward this rebuild is already a failure. Hahn needs to be fired tomorrow. They need to start establishing players and recycling them for new prospects immediately. Hahn has now completely failed twice. He deserves no rope whatsoever. Get the fuck out of town. Edited May 5, 2019 by Jack Parkman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 (edited) I just look at the Sox v. the Padres. Started the rebuilds at the same time; both had made failed "go for it moves" a couple of seasons before. The difference is that Preller mitigated his losses; Hahn didn't. That put Preller close to an even start with Hahn despite Hahn having so much ammo to trade. Then of course, he schooled Hahn in the Tatis trade; it's not surprising as Preller spent years in the weeds scouting talent, while Hahn sat in an office. And beyond Tatis, the difference is striking. The dismal record, the failed 2013-2016 effort; the scorched earth disaster in June 2016.....and being so far behind the Padres. Devotion to lifers, hiring buddies, failure to modernize the front office with analytics. When is enough enough? Edited May 5, 2019 by GreenSox 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneDog847 Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 6 hours ago, elrockinMT said: We will be fine after all the injured players and prospects are healthy. I can’t see blaming one guy when I am sure the team strategy is a consensus of all top management LMAO. You sound like a Blockbuster Video Executive telling his Board not to worry about the new invention called the internet. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 6 hours ago, elrockinMT said: We will be fine after all the injured players and prospects are healthy. I can’t see blaming one guy when I am sure the team strategy is a consensus of all top management I agree. Especially the part of blaming more than one guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 6 hours ago, ottawa_sox said: How would Hahn do with a ballclub that had an owner that did not hamstring him. Can you really blame an owner for not investing $350 million on the advice of the person who suggested these investments? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 46 minutes ago, GreenSox said: Can you really blame an owner for not investing $350 million on the advice of the person who suggested these investments? That owner has employed that GM for 7 seasons with no evaluation of his overall performance whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 8 hours ago, GreenSox said: Can you really blame an owner for not investing $350 million on the advice of the person who suggested these investments? You think Reinsdorf listens to anyones advice on the best way to spend $350M ? The last time Jerry took advice on money was when the neighborhood bully advised him to hand over his piggy bank or get pummeled. Now Jerry is the bully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneDog847 Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: You think Reinsdorf listens to anyones advice on the best way to spend $350M ? The last time Jerry took advice on money was when the neighborhood bully advised him to hand over his piggy bank or get pummeled. Now Jerry is the bully. Very true. It's highly unlikely but I would love a long form journalism piece to come out one day about the Machado and Harper FA sagas. It seems pretty accurate to say that JR was heavily heavily involved in the Machado negotiations and the Machado friends and family plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted May 5, 2019 Author Share Posted May 5, 2019 8 hours ago, Balta1701 said: That owner has employed that GM for 7 seasons with no evaluation of his overall performance whatsoever. Preach, Balta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NWINFan Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 At the very least, an objective baseball person outside the organization should come in, evaluate the rebuild, and make recommendations. The White Sox just can't expect fans to have faith and be patient. This would be a logical thing to do, but of course it would never happen. And the fact that it won't happen leaves many fans to think Reinsdorf no longer cares about the team, and it doesn't matter how many of his supporters deny this. I was at the Orioles DH. I know the weather drove many away, but it was not fun to look and out and see the emptiness. What also didn't help, despite the walkoff, was the overall dismal play of the White Sox. The rebuild can no longer be used as an excuse for a lackluster performance. I've been a fan for longer that I want to admit, but I can't remember being this discouraged about the team's future. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 "Luck is the residue of design" - Branch Rickey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 I do wonder if there is any reason to have an allegiance to this team. I don't think progress is possible until changes are made in the whole organization. That means a new owner who will have has own people and make them accountable. Knowing there is no light at then end of the tunnel other than an oncoming train I'm not sure I want to be a fan anymore. I'm ready to have my ticket punched on the fair weather fan bandwagon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliSoxFanViaSWside Posted May 5, 2019 Share Posted May 5, 2019 To me it's just growing up a Sox fan and never even thinking about changing allegiance. I love baseball . Sure I'd like to win more than we lose. But it's not about the owner or the GM . I just enjoy it and despite the losing I enjoy discussing baseball . Every day even knowing I won't likely see wins I tune in one way or another and hope for the best. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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