The Rick Hahn Haters thread, sponsored by Balta1701 and Jack Parkman

[greg775]

2 hours ago, poppysox said:

He's one of the most hands on owners in baseball.  This guy is not sitting at home wondering how the team is doing.  There are very few days he doesn't talk to RH.  Might be guilty of many things but not caring isn't one of them.

If he is a hands on owner, I hope he screams at Hahn and KW every day for acquiring guys like Alonso and Jay and all those hacks on the mound. And Wellington, etc. How could JR not rip Hahn a new one daily if indeed he calls Hahn all the time?

[poppysox]

6 hours ago, greg775 said:

If he is a hands on owner, I hope he screams at Hahn and KW every day for acquiring guys like Alonso and Jay and all those hacks on the mound. And Wellington, etc. How could JR not rip Hahn a new one daily if indeed he calls Hahn all the time?

My point is he certainly did have input and is part of the three headed decision making team.  There is no blame when you are all in on the decision.

[Lip Man 1]

12 hours ago, greg775 said:

If he is a hands on owner, I hope he screams at Hahn and KW every day for acquiring guys like Alonso and Jay and all those hacks on the mound. And Wellington, etc. How could JR not rip Hahn a new one daily if indeed he calls Hahn all the time?

Every major franchise decision including selection of high draft picks goes through JR and that is a fact.

[NWINFan]

I don't see the point in cherry-picking at Hahn right now. Here is my main concern: Is the current rebuild a real attempt to turn the White Sox into an elite American League franchise or is it a stop-gap measure or at worst a salary-dump?  If long-term losing only leads to short-term winning, then it is failure. And we have no choice but to wait to see how successful things turn out to be.

In essence the franchise has struggled since the Black Sox sandal of 100 years ago. I would like to see that change and change for good. Does the White Sox front office want that as well?

[Lip Man 1]

2 hours ago, NWINFan said:

IIn essence the franchise has struggled since the Black Sox sandal of 100 years ago. I would like to see that change and change for good. Does the White Sox front office want that as well?

They absolutely do...BUT (you knew that was coming). They want to do it THEIR WAY. Which in many respects is running contrary to the way most other franchises (including very successful ones) operate.

They neglected the minor league system for years, even now it is a legit question about their ability to develop people, draft choices for years were horrendous, with so many injuries piling up the last three years you wonder if they have properly evaluated the training / medical staffs, they are reluctant to deal with certain agents, they obviously aren't willing to pay top dollar for premium talent and the way the front office comments about things to the media often makes you wonder if they have a PR staff that knows what they are doing and finally they are loyal without accountability.

[Thad Bosley]

49 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

They absolutely do...BUT (you knew that was coming). They want to do it THEIR WAY. Which in many respects is running contrary to the way most other franchises (including very successful ones) operate.

...which is fine, but after 39 years of trying to “do it THEIR WAY” and with the deplorable results they’ve had, you’d think prudence would take over at some point and they’d try something different.  But no, that never happens.  

[Lip Man 1]

3 hours ago, Fan O'Faust said:

...which is fine, but after 39 years of trying to “do it THEIR WAY” and with the deplorable results they’ve had, you’d think prudence would take over at some point and they’d try something different.  But no, that never happens.  

This ownership group has always had a streak of arrogance in my opinion, from JR on down. Like, "we're smarter than all of you..."

[GradMc]

During the 5-12 game thread I was admiring the strength of Vlad Jr.  Given the lack of success by this regime to draft and successfully cultivate position players, I made a comment Kenny-Hahn could look to Vlad Jr as an example of #1 draft pick.

Lord, why did I say that ?

I was taken to task by several posters as it was perceived as a dig against Eloy and Yoan.

It was nothing of the  kind.

One responder was rather crude when I mentioned I didn't appreciate being cursed.

But these are folks with no life and only feel self-worth hiding behind a keyboard which speaks far more about their character. 

I shake my head and move on.

Eloy and Yoan were drafted by other organizations. Kenny-Hahn traded for other organization's talent. 

My point was simply how great it would be if the Sox actually got better at drafting talent of that caliber.

I could have just as easily mentioned Eloy and Yoan along with Vlad Jr.

They all have the potential to be great players.

And yes,  I definitely believe Vlad Jr will be a superior player to Yomer Sanchez despite the pushback.

I must have insulted some family member.

Unreal.

 

 

 

Edited May 13, 2019 by GradMc

[Moan4Yoan]

1 hour ago, GradMc said:

During the 5-12 game thread I was admiring the strength of Vlad Jr.  Given the lack of success by this regime to draft and successfully cultivate position players, I made a comment Kenny-Hahn could look to Vlad Jr as an example of #1 draft pick.

Lord, why did I say that ?

I was taken to task by several posters as it was perceived as a dig against Eloy and Yoan.

It was nothing of the  kind.

One responder was rather crude when I mentioned I didn't appreciate being cursed.

But these are folks with no life and only feel self-worth hiding behind a keyboard which speaks far more about their character. 

I shake my head and move on.

Eloy and Yoan were drafted by other organizations. Kenny-Hahn traded for other organization's talent. 

My point was simply how great it would be if the Sox actually got better at drafting talent of that caliber.

I could have just as easily mentioned Eloy and Yoan along with Vlad Jr.

They all have the potential to be great players.

And yes,  I definitely believe Vlad Jr will be a superior player to Yomer Sanchez despite the pushback.

I must have insulted some family member.

Unreal.

 

 

 

There aren't too many players that aren't superior to Yolmer Sanchez.

[reiks12]

Avisail Garcia is having a great season for Tampa, let him go so Palka could roam right field.

 

[poppysox]

8 hours ago, reiks12 said:

cAvisail Garcia is having a great season for Tampa, let him go so Palka could roam right field.

 

When you put it that way,,,,,,Yuck!

[TBrown54]

On ‎5‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 11:40 AM, mqr said:

It so weird to me how willing people are to give him a pass and rag on Kenny. Kenny has overstayed his welcome, but there was a period were Kenny was actually pretty solid. 

I am proudly guilty as charged.  Kenny had 2 good years (out of 19).  He was handed a contender built by Ron Scheuler in 2000.  He failed to improve the team from 2000-03.  He struck gold with the deals he made in 2004-05.  Since then, White Sox are consistently near the bottom of league in attendance, after being consistently over 2 million in early 2000s.  Franchise's won/loss record since 2005 is bad, but the decline of the franchise in terms of fan interest is alarming, inexcusable.  In the order of which front office executive is worse, only Reinsdorf merits higher ranking than Kenny. 

 

 

[Balta1701]

10 hours ago, reiks12 said:

Avisail Garcia is having a great season for Tampa, let him go so Palka could roam right field.

 

Considering I'm a sponsor of this thread apparently you know I'm not a Hahn fan, but nothing Garcia does this year changes the logic with him.

1. If Garcia makes it through this year healthy it will be the first time in his career (and another indictment of our training staff).
2. If the White Sox had offered Garcia arbitration, he would have made something like $8-9 million this year. No team was wiling to give him more than $3.5 million as a free agent. No team believed in him that much.
3. If the White Sox had offered him $4 million as a free agent they could have retained him, but signing outfielders to 1 year deals as a free agent is just dumb for this franchise. If Avi was doing great for us right now, what difference does it make, are we competitive for the Wild Card, does he make us a rival for the AL Central? Are corner outfielders hugely valued on the trade market in July?
4. If everything worked out great for that signing, Avi still walks away as a free agent next offseason because no one is offering him a $18 million qualifying offer.

You can tell me that signing Avi for $4 million would have been better than signing another outfielder for $4 million and forgetting to give him a physical and that's true, but signing any outfielder for $4 million was a dumb move for a rebuilding franchise that spent the offseason crying about how they're too poor to extend their core roster. 

[poppysox]

The Sox are in the entertainment business.  When they fail to entertain someone isn't doing their job.

[GreenSox]

2 hours ago, TBrown54 said:

I am proudly guilty as charged.  Kenny had 2 good years (out of 19).  He was handed a contender built by Ron Scheuler in 2000.  He failed to improve the team from 2000-03.  He struck gold with the deals he made in 2004-05.  Since then, White Sox are consistently near the bottom of league in attendance, after being consistently over 2 million in early 2000s.  Franchise's won/loss record since 2005 is bad, but the decline of the franchise in terms of fan interest is alarming, inexcusable.  In the order of which front office executive is worse, only Reinsdorf merits higher ranking than Kenny. 

 

 

KW was always a starting pitcher short from 2001-2004.  The drafts starting declining then too, which would portend future problems.  In 2007, he gave Ozzie a "Jerry Krause" year and brought in the hackers and slappers that Ozzie wanted.  Of course it was a disaster.  KW quickly mitigated those mistakes and put a playoff team on the field the next year (led by the brilliant trade for The Carlos Quentin).  Even in his last year, he fielded a contender that ended up with more pythagorean wins than he division winner.
He's made a lot of mistakes, but the biggest is the continued employment of Rick Hahn and Don Cooper.  I accept that KW has a lifetime contract with JR.  But why do Hahn and Cooper have lifetime contracts with KW?

Edited May 15, 2019 by GreenSox

[35thstreetswarm]

Serious question:  if the rebuild “works,” i.e. Moncada, Anderson, Gio and Lopez continue to improve, Eloy mashes, some handful of prospects (probably Robert and Cease, maybe Kopech) comes up and contributes, we add a couple free agents and start making playoff runs in 2020-2021, will those of you who are down on Hahn change your minds?  Or have past moves made him irredeemable in your eyes?  

I ask because for me Hahn’s grade is “incomplete,” as my ultimate impression of the job Hahn is doing is 100% tied to the rebuild.  If it works on a reasonable timetable I’ll give him credit, regardless of how frustrated I may be with this off-season/the Tatis trade, etc.  if it doesn’t, he’s got to go.  But it feels like some of you have formed opinions that are so strong they’ll never be changed, and that may be divorced from the success of the team on the field.

[WBWSF]

The way I see it, Hahn will be gone. If this rebuild fails, he's gone. If the rebuild is a success I figure some other organization will offer him a lot more money than what JR is paying him and he'll leave on his own. Either way, good riddance.

[35thstreetswarm]

1 hour ago, WBWSF said:

The way I see it, Hahn will be gone. If this rebuild fails, he's gone. If the rebuild is a success I figure some other organization will offer him a lot more money than what JR is paying him and he'll leave on his own. Either way, good riddance.

^^^case in point.  So if Hahn engineers a successful rebuild and the White Sox become a good, contending team on his watch, you’d cheer if he left for another team?  Why?

[Bob Sacamano]

3 hours ago, WBWSF said:

The way I see it, Hahn will be gone. If this rebuild fails, he's gone. If the rebuild is a success I figure some other organization will offer him a lot more money than what JR is paying him and he'll leave on his own. Either way, good riddance.

Yeah right. Kenny Williams has been here how long? And another team wanted him at one point. Jerry didn't let him go.

[bmags]

Dayton Moore put together a team that made World Series twice yet if KW was fired and Moore hired the next day I would not be jumping for joy.

Given the position, division, length of tenure, obvious deficiencies in player development, scouting and strategy, making playoffs twice in a decade is not enough for me to say Hahn is a success.

[poppysox]

4 hours ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

Serious question:  if the rebuild “works,” i.e. Moncada, Anderson, Gio and Lopez continue to improve, Eloy mashes, some handful of prospects (probably Robert and Cease, maybe Kopech) comes up and contributes, we add a couple free agents and start making playoff runs in 2020-2021, will those of you who are down on Hahn change your minds?  Or have past moves made him irredeemable in your eyes?  

I ask because for me Hahn’s grade is “incomplete,” as my ultimate impression of the job Hahn is doing is 100% tied to the rebuild.  If it works on a reasonable timetable I’ll give him credit, regardless of how frustrated I may be with this off-season/the Tatis trade, etc.  if it doesn’t, he’s got to go.  But it feels like some of you have formed opinions that are so strong they’ll never be changed, and that may be divorced from the success of the team on the field.

This an excellent way to pose the current situation.  Good job!

[bubba phillips]

5 hours ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

Serious question:  if the rebuild “works,” i.e. Moncada, Anderson, Gio and Lopez continue to improve, Eloy mashes, some handful of prospects (probably Robert and Cease, maybe Kopech) comes up and contributes, we add a couple free agents and start making playoff runs in 2020-2021, will those of you who are down on Hahn change your minds?  Or have past moves made him irredeemable in your eyes?  

I ask because for me Hahn’s grade is “incomplete,” as my ultimate impression of the job Hahn is doing is 100% tied to the rebuild.  If it works on a reasonable timetable I’ll give him credit, regardless of how frustrated I may be with this off-season/the Tatis trade, etc.  if it doesn’t, he’s got to go.  But it feels like some of you have formed opinions that are so strong they’ll never be changed, and that may be divorced from the success of the team on the field.

That's all fine and dandy.  But very flimsy in the way of accountability. 

What is considered a successful rebuild?  WS championship? WS appearance?  Post-season appearance?  Competitiveness in the AL Central? 

What's a reasonable timetable?  Is it 3-5 years?  Up to 8 years?  Open-ended?

These sort of generalities would never work in the normal business world.  Give me some concrete goals and timelines so that I can judge your success or failure.

 

[South Side Fireworks Man]

On 5/11/2019 at 12:29 PM, Lip Man 1 said:

Every major franchise decision including selection of high draft picks goes through JR and that is a fact.

No wonder they suck.

[mqr]

11 minutes ago, bubba phillips said:

That's all fine and dandy.  But very flimsy in the way of accountability. 

What is considered a successful rebuild?  WS championship? WS appearance?  Post-season appearance?  Competitiveness in the AL Central? 

What's a reasonable timetable?  Is it 3-5 years?  Up to 8 years?  Open-ended?

These sort of generalities would never work in the normal business world.  Give me some concrete goals and timelines so that I can judge your success or failure.

 

If it ever gets to a point where trading Yoan Moncad makes sense they have failed. That inflection point is a lot closer than people seem to realize. 

Edited May 15, 2019 by mqr

[35thstreetswarm]

6 minutes ago, bubba phillips said:

That's all fine and dandy.  But very flimsy in the way of accountability. 

What is considered a successful rebuild?  WS championship? WS appearance?  Post-season appearance?  Competitiveness in the AL Central? 

What's a reasonable timetable?  Is it 3-5 years?  Up to 8 years?  Open-ended?

These sort of generalities would never work in the normal business world.  Give me some concrete goals and timelines so that I can judge your success or failure.

 

I defined it (for me) in my first paragraph.  They start making playoff runs (plural) in 2020-2021; a genuine contending team starting next season.  But you are kind of missing my point.  Define it however you want:  my point is that some here seem to have formed an opinion of Hahn’s efforts before their success (however you define it) can realistically be measured in the field, which seems backwards to me.