I really miss this.

[GGajewski18]

1 minute ago, fathom said:

But Delmonico, Tilson, Engel and Cordell are?  I totally get why people were sick of Avi, but if you want to discount his luck in 2017, then 2018 should also be thrown out due to the injury. 

No, none of those guys are, but those guys probably cost the Sox 2 million combine.  Don't even mention Jay because outside of injury, Jay is a better baseball player than Avi all around.

What about 2014, 2015, or 2016 for Avi? Lol come on man.  In 5 full years he had an OPS above 700 three times, two of them were 718 and 719, combine that with terrible defense, we have a below average player.

[bmags]

Just now, GGajewski18 said:

No, none of those guys are, but those guys probably cost the Sox 2 million combine.  Don't even mention Jay because outside of injury, Jay is a better baseball player than Avi all around.

What about 2014, 2015, or 2016 for Avi? Lol come on man.  In 5 full years he had an OPS above 700 three times, two of them were 718 and 719, combine that with terrible defense, we have a below average player.

Was. One of the things about copy/pasting the career numbers into your expectations for a player in their age 34 year after a steep second half decline is a) those players get injured and b) they tend to start declining.

[mqr]

9 minutes ago, fathom said:

Actually right move would have been using the 9 million on Avi instead of Alonso if you knew you were half-assing the Manny sweepstakes and then put Palka at DH.  So many on here were happy that Avi was let go because they thought it meant a better free agent would be taking his place.  Instead we have to see a bunch of garbage get at bats all season in RF.

No, the right move would have been to leave all three of those guys off the roster and sign someone who hasn't been bad at baseball for half a decade. If you want Avi so damn bad, sign him next year. 

 

[fathom]

9 minutes ago, mqr said:

No, the right move would have been to leave all three of those guys off the roster and sign someone who hasn't been bad at baseball for half a decade. If you want Avi so damn bad, sign him next year. 

 

I’ve considered him an option for next year via free agency, to be honest.  RF looks like a glaring hole going forward.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

16 hours ago, greg775 said:

PTATC I think you are my favorite poster and I respect your medical ability and knowledge. Very surprised at this take. Wake up call? Just 2 seasons ago didn't he hit .335? He hustled his ass off. Wake up call? I disagree he needed any wake up call. 

Some times you come up with a gem. 2017 was a good year for Avi and 2018 he was starting to hit more HR's. He also was becoming an adequate fielder. Many times you see people here calling him a terrible fielder . Maybe that was true at first but it wasn't by the time he left and isn't true now.

You will also see people here throwing around $8-10M for what it would've cost to keep Avi. Unless I'm wrong you can non tender a guy then resign him. As was pointed out by Moan4Yoan the Sox misdirected attempt to sign Machado by signing  Jay and others are little things that sabotage the rebuild .Sox could've resigned Avi for Jay money and put in a few option years in case he got back to 2017 level or hit for less average but more HR's. You are in a rebuild and you get rid of a 27 year old who could still put it all together and replace him with a 34 year old who's best days are long gone ?

Did the front office not think any of our young core could have breakout seasons and contend this year ? Yoan , Timmy, Giolito and Lopez along with the hitting of McCann and Abreu makes the lack of effort to sign FA's just look like incompetence, or lack of foresight and even worse you don't believe in your young core. Even if you non tender Avi and fail at Machado why not sign Brantley , a starting pitcher and another reliever in a crap division and see how it goes ?

Yea he got hurt a lot and even though I had always supported Avi I was fine with non tendering him because I thought maybe we get Machado, or Brantley. Brantley gets hurt a lot too but there was no denying his talent and consistency when he was healthy. He's already got 2.1 WAR .

Houston signed Brantley, Dodgers signed another always injured OFer in Pollock, Tampa Bay signed Avi. Those are 3 well respected front offices with teams in contention and in Tampa Bay's case a team that can't spend like L.A.

Avi didn't need a wakeup call he just needed to stay healthy.

Edited May 15, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

22 minutes ago, fathom said:

I’ve considered him an option for next year via free agency, to be honest.  RF looks like a glaring hole going forward.

Sorry to see you taking heat on this. Usually it is me getting the heat for this.

[poppysox]

2 hours ago, mqr said:

This is a perfect example of whining for the sake of whining. 

Were talking about not giving Avi mf'ing Garcia 10 million dollars. It was the right move then, it's the right move now, and it will continue to be the right move forever. 

It's no different that the Tigers moving on from McCann, which was also the right move.

I sure hope we have plans for McCann.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

3 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

Come on dude, he has been injured for most of his career, and that is not even a stretch.   Acting like the Sox made a mistake letting him go because he managed to stay healthy for a month and a half is hilarious.   Plus, he is a power hitter that doesn't hit home runs or doubles, he isn't a good defender, what are we missing here? A 480 foot home run?  Oh no I'm sad now

 

 

It’s not just offensively that Garcia is contributing, either, as he has been one of the better defenders in the outfield as well. Not just the Rays outfield, any outfield.

Garcia has totaled 3 DRS, which puts him among the top 22 qualifying outfielders in the game, despite having played a significantly lower number of innings with the glove. Furthermore, Statcast has Garcia rated at 4 outs above average, which is fourth in the majors (Kevin Kiermaier is first with 7).

from https://www.draysbay.com/2019/5/15/18624814/avisail-garcia-tampa-bay-rays-2019

So currently he can beat you with his glove, his speed, his arm ,his power , his batting average and OBP. What do they call those kind of guys again . Oh yeah a 5 tool player. No problem Sox have a ton of guys just like him .

[Kyyle23]

5 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

It’s not just offensively that Garcia is contributing, either, as he has been one of the better defenders in the outfield as well. Not just the Rays outfield, any outfield.

Garcia has totaled 3 DRS, which puts him among the top 22 qualifying outfielders in the game, despite having played a significantly lower number of innings with the glove. Furthermore, Statcast has Garcia rated at 4 outs above average, which is fourth in the majors (Kevin Kiermaier is first with 7).

from https://www.draysbay.com/2019/5/15/18624814/avisail-garcia-tampa-bay-rays-2019

So currently he can beat you with his glove, his speed, his arm ,his power , his batting average and OBP. What do they call those kind of guys again . Oh yeah a 5 tool player. No problem Sox have a ton of guys just like him .

1 1/2 months

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Just now, Kyyle23 said:

1 1/2 months

So if I see you raving about Moncada, McCann Giolito and whoever I can say that to you too ?

 

[Kyyle23]

Just now, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

So if I see you raving about Moncada, McCann Giolito and whoever I can say that to you too ?

 

You can say it to whoever you want, I don't care.   I'm not here telling everyone the front office made a bad decision by not retaining Avi due to multiple circumstances, among them being less than stellar production and injury history.  He was a let down, he had one good season and a bunch of ok to bad seasons.   I'm not sad he is gone because I was sick of waiting for him to arrive.   

The front office has made a SHIT TON of bad decisions, I'm not hear to defend them.  But I agree with this decision regardless of how he performs this year

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 hour ago, fathom said:

Actually right move would have been using the 9 million on Avi instead of Alonso if you knew you were half-assing the Manny sweepstakes and then put Palka at DH.  So many on here were happy that Avi was let go because they thought it meant a better free agent would be taking his place.  Instead we have to see a bunch of garbage get at bats all season in RF.

Absolutely no "right move" involves Daniel Palka being on the big league roster.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 minute ago, Kyyle23 said:

You can say it to whoever you want, I don't care.   I'm not here telling everyone the front office made a bad decision by not retaining Avi due to multiple circumstances, among them being less than stellar production and injury history.  He was a let down, he had one good season and a bunch of ok to bad seasons.   I'm not sad he is gone because I was sick of waiting for him to arrive.   

The front office has made a SHIT TON of bad decisions, I'm not hear to defend them.  But I agree with this decision regardless of how he performs this year

I understand you feel the same way as a lot of posters did. All I'm saying as is Fathom is that being patient in a rebuild might be one of the most important things you can do besides drafting well. Guys with as much talent as Avi don't come along often. You can go through a lot of Cordells and Tilsons and Palka's before you can find an Avi.

Yea it sucks watching him get hurt and sucks trying to be patient but if you are in charge during a rebuild then being patient is a huge asset. As fans we can just scream DFA him , non tender him and you're right there with the majority.

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I understand you feel the same way as a lot of posters did. All I'm saying as is Fathom is that being patient in a rebuild might be one of the most important things you can do besides drafting well. Guys with as much talent as Avi don't come along often. You can go through a lot of Cordells and Tilsons and Palka's before you can find an Avi.

They don't? You can literally pay full price for them on the free agent market. You can do that for Avi next year if you think he's so particularly special. 

[mqr]

16 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I understand you feel the same way as a lot of posters did. All I'm saying as is Fathom is that being patient in a rebuild might be one of the most important things you can do besides drafting well. Guys with as much talent as Avi don't come along often. You can go through a lot of Cordells and Tilsons and Palka's before you can find an Avi.

Yea it sucks watching him get hurt and sucks trying to be patient but if you are in charge during a rebuild then being patient is a huge asset. As fans we can just scream DFA him , non tender him and you're right there with the majority.

If that were the case he would have been paid more than 3 million dollars

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

They don't? You can literally pay full price for them on the free agent market. You can do that for Avi next year if you think he's so particularly special. 

They don't what ? Don't understand. Next year doesn't give us this years Avi. They could've beat TB's offer on him . I don't know everything about contracts but they could've gave him the same health based incentives or thrown in  some option years in case he stayed healthy and broke out right ?

I don't think he's particularly special. I think he has a lot more talent and tools than your average non tender guy  that in a rebuild is very important to keep in mind. If the front office doesn't stay patient enough to believe in or anticipate some breakouts  in guys like Giolito , Moncada Anderson , Eloy and Lopez then you end up missing a year of perhaps winning a very winnable division if you had just signed  another starter another reliever and a guy like Brantley if you were dead set on shitcanning Avi.

You also provide some hope  that when and if Robert, Kopech Dunning  and Cease arrive and do well the winning can be sustained. It's just a total lack of foresight from the front office that's just magnified when you look at Avi . I mean they could've said well hell we're arent going after Machado but we can spend that money on more pitching and others to show our youngsters we believe in them and maybe if enough guys come together quickly we can win the division in 2019 . Brantley was 2 years $32M, Brad Brach wasn't expensive. If not Brantley, Adam Jone was cheap enough to provide decent numbers as a stop gap guy in RF.. Jordan Lyles was cheap and doing well with Pittsburgh. Charlie Morton was doable. Blake Parker cheap and so far doing well for the Twins. Granted those are some of  the correct moves and no one ever does that but you get the point.

Forget Alonso, Jay . Machado and if the Sox sign the guys I mentioned they spend maybe a little more then Alonso and Jay cost and a whole lot less than Machado wouldve cost and you have a lot more financially flexibility and a better team this year leading into years when more guys arrive.

 

Edited May 16, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

47 minutes ago, mqr said:

If that were the case he would have been paid more than 3 million dollars

No that is  the case . It was the injuries that held him back. That's why TB gave him a base salary of $3.5M and another $3M in  health/games played incentives. They saw potential and the talent/tools as most smart front offices do.

[mqr]

I can’t fucking wait until this team is good enough that we don’t have spend time talking about keeping Avisail Garcia

[greg775]

12 hours ago, Sleepy Harold said:

How is that a unfair or a poor take?  Because he's hitting how he is in TB now does not mean he'd doing the exact same thing here had he stayed.  Avi ALWAYS got hurt here.  How is it unfair to put into question the players injury history when it's as poor as it was here?  To me, it seems fair to bring up but I'd love an actual explanation as to why it's a poor and bad take and not just fanboi ramblings about a player who's no longer here. 

Glad you asked. Let's say for the sake of argument you and I are fighting to win our argument regarding Avi. You can't blanketly erase his production this season by simply suggesting he wouldn't have been putting up the same numbers in his old locale. That's not an argument that makes any sense. He got hurt a lot in Chicago. Are we to assume there is something about right field in Chicago that would have caused him to stumble and pull a hammy or the basepaths are watered such he'd pull a hammy? No, we can't assume that. If what you are saying is true, and you quote, win this argument, people should shut up about Tatis. Cause we can only assume he'd have stunk had he been in our organization; or we couldn't assume he'd be worth anything if he were still a Sox. Your argument cannot be implemented. It's Avi's current production to be looked at, not a hypothetical that he might be hurt in Chicago. That's not how arguments work.

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

They don't what ? Don't understand. Next year doesn't give us this years Avi. They could've beat TB's offer on him . I don't know everything about contracts but they could've gave him the same health based incentives or thrown in  some option years in case he stayed healthy and broke out right ?

I don't think he's particularly special. I think he has a lot more talent and tools than your average non tender guy  that in a rebuild is very important to keep in mind. If the front office doesn't stay patient enough to believe in or anticipate some breakouts  in guys like Giolito , Moncada Anderson , Eloy and Lopez then you end up missing a year of perhaps winning a very winnable division if you had just signed  another starter another reliever and a guy like Brantley if you were dead set on shitcanning Avi.

You also provide some hope  that when and if Robert, Kopech Dunning  and Cease arrive and do well the winning can be sustained. It's just a total lack of foresight from the front office that's just magnified when you look at Avi . I mean they could've said well hell we're arent going after Machado but we can spend that money on more pitching and others to show our youngsters we believe in them and maybe if enough guys come together quickly we can win the division in 2019 . Brantley was 2 years $32M, Brad Brach wasn't expensive. If not Brantley, Adam Jone was cheap enough to provide decent numbers as a stop gap guy in RF.. Jordan Lyles was cheap and doing well with Pittsburgh. Charlie Morton was doable. Blake Parker cheap and so far doing well for the Twins. Granted those are some of  the correct moves and no one ever does that but you get the point.

Forget Alonso, Jay . Machado and if the Sox sign the guys I mentioned they spend maybe a little more then Alonso and Jay cost and a whole lot less than Machado wouldve cost and you have a lot more financially flexibility and a better team this year leading into years when more guys arrive.

 

Ah the game of time travel. It's amazing how much better it makes those franchises that use it.

Avi Garcia would never have signed a deal last offseason that included an option year. All right, maybe if you guaranteed him $15 million you coulda gotten an option, but with only 1 year of team control remaining there's no way he'd sign an option unless you way overpaid. If he hits well this year he'll make good money next offseason and so there's no benefit to him to give the team an option unless they way overpay. This is silly territory. 

[Sleepy Harold]

37 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Glad you asked. Let's say for the sake of argument you and I are fighting to win our argument regarding Avi. You can't blanketly erase his production this season by simply suggesting he wouldn't have been putting up the same numbers in his old locale. That's not an argument that makes any sense. He got hurt a lot in Chicago. Are we to assume there is something about right field in Chicago that would have caused him to stumble and pull a hammy or the basepaths are watered such he'd pull a hammy? No, we can't assume that. If what you are saying is true, and you quote, win this argument, people should shut up about Tatis. Cause we can only assume he'd have stunk had he been in our organization; or we couldn't assume he'd be worth anything if he were still a Sox. Your argument cannot be implemented. It's Avi's current production to be looked at, not a hypothetical that he might be hurt in Chicago. That's not how arguments work.

I understand this, but I wasn't making an argument, I was putting out a hypothetical question based on previous history of his here.  Hypothetically had he been brought back, he may have very well come into the season fully healthy and posted the same numbers.  Or he may not have.  It's something we'll never know.  And like I said in my original post, I'm glad he's doing well and it sucks he couldn't do it here more often, but it seemed to be time to move on for both parties. You don't need to agree with that view, it's just how I see the situation. Everything on a message board isn't about winning arguments per se, it can be about posing questions for discussion purposes. 

[JuliusO1274]

4 hours ago, Kyyle23 said:

You can say it to whoever you want, I don't care.   I'm not here telling everyone the front office made a bad decision by not retaining Avi due to multiple circumstances, among them being less than stellar production and injury history.  He was a let down, he had one good season and a bunch of ok to bad seasons.   

I would understand this "he had one good season" logic if his good season was many years ago but it wasn't. It was 2017 and he struggled with injuries in 2018 yet showed a lot more power. I posted on another White Sox forum when the Sox got rid of him that I expected him to put together the high average of 2017 and power of 2018 for his 2019 season if he stays healthy. Him having a great season is not surprising at all to me.

Edited May 16, 2019 by JuliusO1274

[greg775]

1 hour ago, Sleepy Harold said:

I understand this, but I wasn't making an argument, I was putting out a hypothetical question based on previous history of his here.  Hypothetically had he been brought back, he may have very well come into the season fully healthy and posted the same numbers.  Or he may not have.  It's something we'll never know.  And like I said in my original post, I'm glad he's doing well and it sucks he couldn't do it here more often, but it seemed to be time to move on for both parties. You don't need to agree with that view, it's just how I see the situation. Everything on a message board isn't about winning arguments per se, it can be about posing questions for discussion purposes. 

Great post. I am a huge Avi fan and get too defensive at times.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Ah the game of time travel. It's amazing how much better it makes those franchises that use it.

Avi Garcia would never have signed a deal last offseason that included an option year. All right, maybe if you guaranteed him $15 million you coulda gotten an option, but with only 1 year of team control remaining there's no way he'd sign an option unless you way overpaid. If he hits well this year he'll make good money next offseason and so there's no benefit to him to give the team an option unless they way overpay. This is silly territory. 

So if you gave him basically the same contract as TB and gave him a player option year of $6-8M with more incentives next year . that's silly for a guy who might get injured again or have a bad year and be out of baseball ? What makes you think he'll be worth  more than 8 M on the open market next year. FA's arent getting squat anymore. What was he worth the off season after he hit .335 when he was 26 ?

[Balta1701]

5 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

So if you gave him basically the same contract as TB and gave him a player option year of $6-8M with more incentives next year . that's silly for a guy who might get injured again or have a bad year and be out of baseball ? What makes you think he'll be worth  more than 8 M on the open market next year. FA's arent getting squat anymore. What was he worth the off season after he hit .335 when he was 26 ?

yes. That's silly. The guy is not giving up that year of free agency, that's terrible business. If he didn't perform there's no benefit to him since the option is an option, if he performed well he's costing himself money. The entire concept assumes that his representation is stupid.

Guys will give up those kind of contracts when they are coming back from surgery and expect to miss 2/3 of the season and just need someone's facilities where they can rehab for a year.