McCann Extension

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 minute ago, bmags said:

Bird in the hand

I’d bet there’s a higher probability that Collins is the more productive player of the two when this team is a contender. The Sox didn’t give Collins a fair run earlier this year in the bigs but his offensive track record in the minors is far superior to that of Narvaez. Of course, that doesn’t guarantee success in the bigs but I’m willing to wager he’s the better bet when this team needs that LH hitting backup catcher/1b/DH starting next season. I’m sorry but Narvaez was awful behind the plate. In the limited time I saw Collins this summer, he already looked better defensively than Narvaez.

[bmags]

22 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Yeah, but 99% of catchers don't suddenly improve their defensive abilities at 28 years old. They are what they are at that point defensively. 

So much of catcher defense is positional and reactionary. Sometimes guys just don't have that ability to process a pitch and get your body in front of it or position yourself to maximize that, nor do they have the athleticism to increase their pop times. 

Getting rid of navarez was the best decision this team made this offseason because it opened up the door to a catcher much better suited to manage and handle a young staff. Castillo was what he was and he was here to stay through the year and the Sox were not carrying 3 catchers.

I also think navarez bat is fine if he was an adequate defensive catcher (even just below average) but his bat is not good enough to make up for him being Mike piazza behind home plate. He needs to be at least 30% better than his catching peers to balance out the fact that he's more than 30% worse than the average catcher defensively. That's why he'll be a 1.5-2 WAR player. His offensive production is cancelled out by his lack of defensive prowess, and his 173 iso is not strong enough to play 1st base or DH.

It is so weird how people act like this is a thing. 

- No reason castillo needed to be on team, he was bad and left team out to try after signing him to a contract

- No reason the team couldn't upgrade bullpen without trading Narvaez

The reason you give up on Narvaez would be if you thought his bat was the issue, but he has now posted back to back years with a 120 wRC+. That beats our 1b, that beats our DH, and it beats the last several years of DHs. He has a high obp, his bat can handle the lower .iso - because he was cheap and under control.

A 1.5-2 WAR LH hitting player that can play catcher and is plus offensively would be valuable. The team needed a "defensive" catcher for their pitchers, they chose Castillo over Narvaez, not McCann over Narvaez.

 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Just now, bmags said:

It is so weird how people act like this is a thing. 

- No reason castillo needed to be on team, he was bad and left team out to try after signing him to a contract

- No reason the team couldn't upgrade bullpen without trading Narvaez

The reason you give up on Narvaez would be if you thought his bat was the issue, but he has now posted back to back years with a 120 wRC+. That beats our 1b, that beats our DH, and it beats the last several years of DHs. He has a high obp, his bat can handle the lower .iso - because he was cheap and under control.

A 1.5-2 WAR LH hitting player that can play catcher and is plus offensively would be valuable. The team needed a "defensive" catcher for their pitchers, they chose Castillo over Narvaez, not McCann over Narvaez.

 

We'll just agree to disagree on this one. No biggie.

The lost of Navarez meant nothing and they actually acquired a player that is more beneficial to this teams current construction.

[Balta1701]

Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

We'll just agree to disagree on this one. No biggie.

The lost of Navarez meant nothing and they actually acquired a player that is more beneficial to this teams current construction.

A guy who is under control for 2 years is not more beneficial to this team's current construction than a guy under control for 5 years. Wasn't at the time, still isn't. 

[bmags]

White Sox are 24th in OBP and 24th in wRC+. They have gotten -3.5 WAR from their DH but luckily they traded a wRC+ of 120 player because his iso just straight up would not have worked.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

A guy who is under control for 2 years is not more beneficial to this team's current construction than a guy under control for 5 years. Wasn't at the time, still isn't. 

Would you carry 3 catchers on the roster next season? I’m taking McCann and Collins over Narvaez next year and beyond. I’m really hoping we see a dramatic upgrade at DH next season, someone better than Narvaez. As much as everyone wants Abreu at DH next season, the Sox have no better option at 1b so he’s going to be there again.

[Timmy U]

2 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

Would you carry 3 catchers on the roster next season? I’m taking McCann and Collins over Narvaez next year and beyond. I’m really hoping we see a dramatic upgrade at DH next season, someone better than Narvaez. As much as everyone wants Abreu at DH next season, the Sox have no better option at 1b so he’s going to be there again.

My view is you split DH.  Give Collins a lot of at bats there as well as Eloy.  Maybe Moncada once a week to reduce wear and tear.  Anything but another Yonder/Adam Dunn type.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

2 minutes ago, bmags said:

White Sox are 24th in OBP and 24th in wRC+. They have gotten -3.5 WAR from their DH but luckily they traded a wRC+ of 120 player because his iso just straight up would not have worked.

How well does a 800 OPS translate at DH in terms of wRC+? Honest question because I’m really hoping for better than that next season out of our DH (as I said in previous post I believe Abreu will be back as the 1b and yes I know the horrific DH production this season for the Sox)

[bmags]

7 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

How well does a 800 OPS translate at DH in terms of wRC+? Honest question because I’m really hoping for better than that next season out of our DH (as I said in previous post I believe Abreu will be back as the 1b and yes I know the horrific DH production this season for the Sox)

wRC+ is not position adjusted, but it would put him about 7th among qualified DHs, I lowered that a bit, but 10th among DHs of at least 300 PAs

edit: I'm a bit confused by your question but the 120 wRC+ would slot him 7th, for OPS it would put him 8th.

[TheFutureIsNear]

Are people giving McCann a lot/all of credit for Gio turning into what he should have been all along? Because other than that I see no improvements from our pitching staff to rave about how good McCann is defensively. 

Reynaldo hasn’t taken a step forward

Nova has been worse than his previous years for most of the season

Cease has struggled

No one else has been useable...

 

McCann’s 2nd 1/2 offensive #’s reflect his career...so what are we really talking about? I’m not saying he’s not serviceable enough to keep on the roster for next season. But extension and penciling him into future lineups? Hell no.

 

 

[chitownsportsfan]

25 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

How well does a 800 OPS translate at DH in terms of wRC+? Honest question because I’m really hoping for better than that next season out of our DH (as I said in previous post I believe Abreu will be back as the 1b and yes I know the horrific DH production this season for the Sox)

wRC+ wouldn't be adjusted as it's purely an offensive metric: the fWAR would be about 2 for an 800 OPS DH.  Maybe 1.5.  I'm really not going to lament trading Narvaez.  He's having a career year with the bat and is still only going to finish with around 2 fWAR, if that.  The real issue, and this has been an issue for about a decade, is that the Sox simply cannot find and produce league average DHs.  It's mind boggling.  Even when they attempt to address it via FA it fails miserably.

 

[bmags]

1 hour ago, chitownsportsfan said:

wRC+ wouldn't be adjusted as it's purely an offensive metric: the fWAR would be about 2 for an 800 OPS DH.  Maybe 1.5.  I'm really not going to lament trading Narvaez.  He's having a career year with the bat and is still only going to finish with around 2 fWAR, if that.  The real issue, and this has been an issue for about a decade, is that the Sox simply cannot find and produce league average DHs.  It's mind boggling.  Even when they attempt to address it via FA it fails miserably.

 

He had a higher wRC+ last year!

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

1 hour ago, bmags said:

wRC+ is not position adjusted, but it would put him about 7th among qualified DHs, I lowered that a bit, but 10th among DHs of at least 300 PAs

edit: I'm a bit confused by your question but the 120 wRC+ would slot him 7th, for OPS it would put him 8th.

I didn’t phrase it well. My question was where would his current wRC+/ OPS rank at DH. You answered it. He’d basically be average for that position assuming his production this season carries forward. I’m really hoping for better than average, which is why I’ve been on the JDM bandwagon for awhile (with Castellanos as the fall back option (he has a longer track record than Narvaez and same age).

[bmags]

6 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I didn’t phrase it well. My question was where would his current wRC+/ OPS rank at DH. You answered it. He’d basically be average for that position assuming his production this season carries forward. I’m really hoping for better than average, which is why I’ve been on the JDM bandwagon for awhile (with Castellanos as the fall back option (he has a longer track record than Narvaez and same age).

Yeah if we buy a bat I want to get a real bat. But if we fail there it is rough not knowing how poor our DH floor could be again.

[chitownsportsfan]

11 minutes ago, bmags said:

He had a higher wRC+ last year!

Yea but this year he's only -2.2 runs on the bases :-).  

I have look at his fangraphs page so fucking much this season it's now coming up right away when I start typing "omar" into chrome.  Yikes.

[Sarava]

I would be afraid of letting McCann go. Giolito made it clear McCann is a huge part of his success this year. They should keep him. Forget Grandal. Spend the money on a TOR starter and a right fielder. Or maybe even a DH.

Edited August 24, 2019 by Sarava

[poppysox]

3 hours ago, Sarava said:

I would be afraid of letting McCann go. Giolito made it clear McCann is a huge part of his success this year. They should keep him. Forget Grandal. Spend the money on a TOR starter and a right fielder. Or maybe even a DH.

I love McCann but the three catchers idea has merit.  Depends on how the FO wants to deal with the DH situation.  McCann would be primary catcher and both Grandal and Collins would rotate with McCann between catcher & DH.

[fathom]

If you sign Grandal, it’s to be the starter. Anything else would be a huge overpay.

[Timmy U]

I will say it here too.  Why are we obsessed with Grandal again?  He’ll be 32 by the end of next year.  Catchers don’t have a history of aging well.  Unless maybe we’re counting on him going on the Nelson Cruz diet?

[Chicago White Sox]

7 hours ago, Timmy U said:

I will say it here too.  Why are we obsessed with Grandal again?  He’ll be 32 by the end of next year.  Catchers don’t have a history of aging well.  Unless maybe we’re counting on him going on the Nelson Cruz diet?

People are obsessed with Grandal because he’s one of the best catchers in baseball and is probably the best left-handed bat on the market.  I don’t understand why that’s hard to understand.

[Sarava]

13 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

People are obsessed with Grandal because he’s one of the best catchers in baseball and is probably the best left-handed bat on the market.  I don’t understand why that’s hard to understand.

There's nobody on this board I agree with more than you usually...but not here.

There's a good chance the pitching regresses without McCann (feel free to go back to Giolito's allstar game interviews and how he talks about McCann). Why would we sell out our pitchers for a better bat in the lineup? The Sox are going to have a loaded lineup, especially if they fill the RF and DH spots. We don't need to be bringing in an aging, good hitting but mediocre defensive catcher. Even if McCann falls back with his bat some next year, he's still the better option and much cheaper. Him and Collins platooning, with McCann likely being the main guy is just right IMO.

To me the off-season plan should be pretty simple. Sign a TOR starter - Cole or Strasburg. Sign or trade for big bats in RF and DH. Patch a few small holes. Attempt to get Moncada and Giollito to sign longterm deals.  The Sox could easily win 95+ games next year.

[Timmy U]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

People are obsessed with Grandal because he’s one of the best catchers in baseball and is probably the best left-handed bat on the market.  I don’t understand why that’s hard to understand.

His offensive numbers are eerily similar to James McCann’s 116 WRC, and he’s 2 years older, and he’s making 9 times as much as McCann.  Maybe I’m leery cuz he’s the same age as Yonder Alonso and a catcher, but I would not give him a multi-year contract at $18 million per.

[zisk]

2020 McCann and Collins. Give Collins 40 games at catcher and 70-80 games at DH/1B. Lets find out if he can play MLB.

2020 is a potential wild card year. 2021 is a potential world series year. Its better to find out next year if he's gonna make it.

[SCCWS]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

People are obsessed with Grandal because he’s one of the best catchers in baseball and is probably the best left-handed bat on the market.  I don’t understand why that’s hard to understand.

What do you think money wise it will take? 

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

7 minutes ago, zisk said:

2020 McCann and Collins. Give Collins 40 games at catcher and 70-80 games at DH/1B. Lets find out if he can play MLB.

2020 is a potential wild card year. 2021 is a potential world series year. Its better to find out next year if he's gonna make it.

Yep. With the emergence of McCann this season, it allows the Sox with the perfect opportunity of breaking in Collins slowly without asking too much of him (e.g. only starting in games where the opposing starter is a righty, splitting time between catcher and DH, etc).