Is Ricky the worst manager in White Sox history?

[Dan of Steel]

Renteria is awful, but Ventura is in a class all his own. 

Ventura wasn't just tactically incompetent as a game-manager, he was probably the single most uninspired and un-charismatic manager in modern baseball. 

Renteria is just tactically incompetent, but I can at least see him being a quality clubhouse voice. He's similar to what Fox was for the Bears. Awful for competing, but good for laying the groundwork of a consistent winner and eliminating the toxicity of the previous regime. Now is the time for the Sox to start looking for their Matt Nagy. 

Edited May 27, 2019 by Dan of Steel

[TaylorStSox]

The 3 most important duties of a major league manager: 1. Fill out a lineup card. 2. Make sure players don't find out who's banging each other's wives. 3. Make sure players are home from the bar by 5 AM and don't puke on the plane. 

 

MLB manager = the most overrated job in pro sports

[TBrown54]

2 hours ago, TaylorStSox said:

The 3 most important duties of a major league manager: 1. Fill out a lineup card. 2. Make sure players don't find out who's banging each other's wives. 3. Make sure players are home from the bar by 5 AM and don't puke on the plane. 

 

MLB manager = the most overrated job in pro sports

4.  Addressing media after the game is critical; manager is daily/nightly face of the franchise.  Best managers can manage the team and the media.  Ozzie was one of the best.  Best managers give credibility, and if fan base perceives product is credible, it helps prop up attendance in down years (IMHO).  

[Bananarchy]

So, I'm not sure someone can seriously ask the question OP asked and legitimately be a White Sox fan.  

Robin was worse, which is heartbreaking because he was one of my favorite players when I was a kid.  I'm sure some of our more senior guys can list a bunch more, too.

[TaylorStSox]

2 hours ago, TBrown54 said:

4.  Addressing media after the game is critical; manager is daily/nightly face of the franchise.  Best managers can manage the team and the media.  Ozzie was one of the best.  Best managers give credibility, and if fan base perceives product is credible, it helps prop up attendance in down years (IMHO).  

Ozzie Guillen? Good at addressing the media? The fuck? ?

[ron883]

5 hours ago, TaylorStSox said:

The 3 most important duties of a major league manager: 1. Fill out a lineup card. 2. Make sure players don't find out who's banging each other's wives. 3. Make sure players are home from the bar by 5 AM and don't puke on the plane. 

 

MLB manager = the most overrated job in pro sports

And Ricky can't even do #1 right. He's awful at it actually

[Dick Allen]

25 minutes ago, ron883 said:

And Ricky can't even do #1 right. He's awful at it actually

But you love Steverson and his guys have 1 run the last 29 innings, and that was by another guy you hate, Abreu.

[Thad Bosley]

Terry “Boom Boom” Bevington

[TBrown54]

6 hours ago, TaylorStSox said:

Ozzie Guillen? Good at addressing the media? The fuck? ?

Ozzie still at it, currently with a weekly appearance WSCR.

[gusguyman]

7 hours ago, ron883 said:

And Ricky can't even do #1 right. He's awful at it actually

Batting order isn't actually all that important, worth about 5-15 runs over the whole year (source). Even if he was the worst tactical manager in White Sox history, which he ain't, that still wouldn't come close to making him the worst manager in team history. 

[Two-Gun Pete]

1 hour ago, gusguyman said:

Batting order isn't actually all that important, worth about 5-15 runs over the whole year (source). Even if he was the worst tactical manager in White Sox history, which he ain't, that still wouldn't come close to making him the worst manager in team history. 

Well, your source compares a sabermetrically "optimal" lineup to a "typical" lineup. As I read that, an "optimal" lineup, in the '99th percentile' of lineups vs a '50th percentile lineup.'

 

How far afield are rickys lineups from a theoretical "typical lineup," one that would fall smack-dab in the middle of optimization? I'd argue that Rickys lineup choices are inferior to a typical one; therefore he likely costs the team much more than the proposed 5-15 runs.

 

Delmonico batting 2nd? Alonzo batting 4th?  Hell, before Anderson was scratched, I think he planned to bat Tilson ahead of him the other day. (Likely due to his slavish adherence to l-r-l-r sequencing.)

In Rickys case, his lineups matter much more than the average manager's lineups do, IMO.

[Quin]

On 5/24/2019 at 11:49 PM, Balta1701 said:

If I could pretend 2012 Robin did not exist, then he would clearly dominate this. But 2012 makes this a difficult case. 

2012 Robin is the most confounding thing looking back.

[Jose Abreu]

2 hours ago, gusguyman said:

Batting order isn't actually all that important, worth about 5-15 runs over the whole year (source). Even if he was the worst tactical manager in White Sox history, which he ain't, that still wouldn't come close to making him the worst manager in team history. 

In addition to the point made by @Two-Gun Pete, which I agree with (batting your worst hitter in the cleanup spot [Castillo] and your 2nd or 3rd best hitter in the 7th spot [Anderson] alone likely puts the lineup in the lower half with respect to optimization), the issue with his lineups is also more than just scoring runs.

To me, the constant placement of Anderson in the #7 spot is awful because it minimizes his plate appearances and gives him fewer opportunities to continue to develop. I would rather he bat #1 or #2 every game. The difference between batting 7th and batting 1st, for example, is about 83 plate appearances per year, so it's actually pretty significant and not just nitpicking. 

If we can't see Collins or Mendick, then I would prefer to see this most days, regardless of whether the opposing starter is a RHP or LHP:

1. Anderson (R)

2. Moncada (S)

3. Jimenez (R)

4. Abreu (R)

5. McCann (R)

6. Alonso (L)

7. Garcia (S)

8. Sanchez/Rondon (S/R)

9. Tilson (L)

[ron883]

12 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

In addition to the point made by @Two-Gun Pete, which I agree with (batting your worst hitter in the cleanup spot [Castillo] and your 2nd or 3rd best hitter in the 7th spot [Anderson] alone likely puts the lineup in the lower half with respect to optimization), the issue with his lineups is also more than just scoring runs.

To me, the constant placement of Anderson in the #7 spot is awful because it minimizes his plate appearances and gives him fewer opportunities to continue to develop. I would rather he bat #1 or #2 every game. The difference between batting 7th and batting 1st, for example, is about 83 plate appearances per year, so it's actually pretty significant and not just nitpicking. 

If we can't see Collins or Mendick, then I would prefer to see this most days, regardless of whether the opposing starter is a RHP or LHP:

1. Anderson (R)

2. Moncada (S)

3. Jimenez (R)

4. Abreu (R)

5. McCann (R)

6. Alonso (L)

7. Garcia (S)

8. Sanchez/Rondon (S/R)

9. Tilson (L)

You would think Hahn would tell Ricky to cut the shit out in regards to the pathetic lineup construction. It's completely asinine.

[poppysox]

On 5/26/2019 at 6:54 AM, Joshua Strong said:

For a guy who’s a been applauded for his ability to develop young players, I’m shocked at how bad the Sox are on defense. They ranked 28 in Ricky’s first year, 27th last year and they’re ranked 29th so far this season in terms of fielding percentage and errors. Would you say that the Sox are a better fundamental team since he took over? Do you see any improvement? What’s the last fundamentally sound White Sox team? 2012?

I’m also not a fan of his lineup construction and he’s not a good in game strategist. Alonso and Castillo have no business batting cleanup. Tim Anderson needs to be batting higher up in the order, I’ve been a proponent of batting him lead off, he could bat fifth or sixth too.

Yeah, Ill give Ricky some credit for Anderson’s success and Moncada’s emergence (fingers crossed) but I think the Sox should bring in a new manager and conduct a search for someone outside of the organization. Even if they do hire someone from the inside, they should interview as many people as possible to get a feel on how other organization’s do thing and apply what they learn to the org. 

Find someone from organizations like St. Louis, Milwaukee or Minnesota.  All small market teams that manage to win without buying their teams.

[Superstar Lamar]

Bevington.

You would agree if you lived through it.

[Thad Bosley]

On 5/25/2019 at 1:51 PM, NWINFan said:

Kessinger was too nice a guy to be manager, but he was also saddled with a no-talent team.  There have been worse than him. Like Bevington and Ozzie in his last year.

Don Kessinger was also a "player manager", which was sort of interesting at those times when you saw someone come in from the shortstop position to make a pitching change!

[Leonard Zelig]

One thing you gotta give to Ricky, his boys don't quit!

[JuliusO1274]

On 5/27/2019 at 1:19 PM, Eloy Jiménez said:

So, I'm not sure someone can seriously ask the question OP asked and legitimately be a White Sox fan.  

Robin was worse, which is heartbreaking because he was one of my favorite players when I was a kid.  I'm sure some of our more senior guys can list a bunch more, too.

Robin was never as bad as Ricky. He was just a scapegoat for bad White Sox teams. My issue with Ricky isn't that the White Sox are losing.

[Dick Allen]

Larry Doby was awful. When I was a little kid I was at a game in September when he protested the game because a minor league call up didn't have his name on his back. The 3k in the stands laughed.

Everything in that Veeck era was determined by money. Ron Schueler was the pitching coach because he couldn't pitch anymore and was under contract.

Edited May 28, 2019 by Dick Allen

[mqr]

1 hour ago, JuliusO1274 said:

Robin was never as bad as Ricky. He was just a scapegoat for bad White Sox teams. My issue with Ricky isn't that the White Sox are losing.

Have you like completely missed all the stuff coming out in the last few weeks about the 2016 season? That part of a managers job is way more important than any on field decisions and Robin was absolutely abysmal at managing personalities. Say what you want about Ricky, but that clubhouse seems to function the way it should. 

[Dick Allen]

 

4 minutes ago, mqr said:

Have you like completely missed all the stuff coming out in the last few weeks about the 2016 season? That part of a managers job is way more important than any on field decisions and Robin was absolutely abysmal at managing personalities. Say what you want about Ricky, but that clubhouse seems to function the way it should. 

They did start out 23-10 after Drake gate. I have a hard time blaming someone else when adults behave badly. This isn't like a regular job. The inmates make more money and aren't easily sent packing.

[TBrown54]

5 hours ago, Fan O'Faust said:

Don Kessinger was also a "player manager", which was sort of interesting at those times when you saw someone come in from the shortstop position to make a pitching change!

I saw a second baseman do it in the World Series.  Hornsby brought in Ronald Reagan to strike out Tony Lazzeri.

[Lip Man 1]

7 hours ago, JuliusO1274 said:

Robin was never as bad as Ricky. He was just a scapegoat for bad White Sox teams. My issue with Ricky isn't that the White Sox are losing.

With all the revelations between Eaton and Frazier the fact that Robin didn't do a damn thing about it (and if he did even privately it would have gotten out and been reported) says a hell of a lot about his attitude. The guy didn't want the job in the first place so I guess we shouldn't be totally surprised. It falls on the FO for hiring him in the first place but anyway you slice it, he was pretty bad. 

[Moan4Yoan]

2 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

With all the revelations between Eaton and Frazier the fact that Robin didn't do a damn thing about it (and if he did even privately it would have gotten out and been reported) says a hell of a lot about his attitude. The guy didn't want the job in the first place so I guess we shouldn't be totally surprised. It falls on the FO for hiring him in the first place but anyway you slice it, he was pretty bad. 

Just another bad decision from a management team that makes a lot of them.  They thought hiring a fan favorite as manager would appease the fans from being upset at following a terrible team.  It definitely backfired.