Embrace The Tank!!!

[soxfan49]

3 minutes ago, OneDog847 said:

Dude, you must not respect any of the Fangraphs writers or dudes on MLB TV cause no one thought this Twins team would be this good so far in 2019.  

Dude, you must not realize that those are GUESSES? How many of these almighty analysts you speak of had the Sox winning the whole thing in 2005 or the Rays getting to the 2008 World Series? I could go on and on. Writers/analysts/experts get shit wrong all the time. The Twins are good. Get on with your life

[OneDog847]

5 minutes ago, soxfan49 said:

Dude, you must not realize that those are GUESSES? How many of these almighty analysts you speak of had the Sox winning the whole thing in 2005 or the Rays getting to the 2008 World Series? I could go on and on. Writers/analysts/experts get shit wrong all the time. The Twins are good. Get on with your life

I realize those are guesses, but it was in no way obvious that the Twins would be the best team in baseball on Memorial Day. Dude is saying that you can't have a worthwhile opinion on baseball if you didn't see this coming and that is ridiculous. 

Twins may win the Central but they are gonna get destroyed by the Big Boys of the AL East like they have for the past 25 seasons. 

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, Lip Man 1 said:

PTATC: I must respectfully disagree to a certain extent because ownership is still the same. Said owner has publicly stated many time how he doesn't like to pay for "potential" as in draft picks which is why he fought so hard to change the drafting system. Also this same owner continues to "suggest" who the Sox should be drafting to those in charge of it. (And I've been told that from two different sources.)

What's the old saying (paraphrasing) "those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it..."

I would agree with the pay for draft picks until the slotted bonus structure came about. Since then JRs paying for the draft pick doesn't matter as the bonus money is like like free agents anymore. 

this is actually one thing I agreed with him on. Baseball drafts are so hit and miss compared to other sports that paying those huge bonuses failed more than it helped most teams. this is one innovation in the game that he pushed for and was the right thing for baseball. 

[GreenSox]

2 hours ago, ptatc said:

The current head of the draft took over in 2016 with many new scouts and staff.

He's been in the organization for 15 of the last 19 years.  And Hahn, KW and JR still surround him.  Not exactly a fresh group with new ideas.
Nevertheless, he's had 3 drafts and this is his fourth.  He's had good draft positions (10, 11, 4 and 3).  Shouldn't the Sox thus be expected to stay in the top 10 farms for the foreseeable future, even given the matriculation of the bounty from the Q/Sale/Eaton trades?  And if the Sox don't, does that suggest a problem?

Edited May 28, 2019 by GreenSox

[OneDog847]

10 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

He's been in the organization for 15 of the last 19 years.  And Hahn, KW and JR still surround him.  Not exactly a fresh group with new ideas.
Nevertheless, he's had 3 drafts and this is his fourth.  He's had good draft positions (10, 11, 4 and 3).  Shouldn't the Sox thus be expected to stay in the top 10 farms for the foreseeable future, even given the matriculation of the bounty from the Q/Sale/Eaton trades?  And if the Sox don't, does that suggest a problem?

Big Nicky was promoted to second in command of the Sox scouting in 2011. He is not fresh blood and a big reason why this rebuild is stuck in the mud. 

[GreenSox]

41 minutes ago, OneDog847 said:

 

How is this year 7 of the Sox rebuild? The Sale Trade kicked off the official rebuild and that was done prior to the 17 season. The Sox were going for it prior to 17 so you can't include those seasons. Shark trade? Frazier trade? Shields trade= Going for it. 

Houston started their rebuild in 2010 and made the playoffs in 2015. They punted away 5 full seasons before they made the playoffs.

The Cubs punted away 3 full seasons before their rebuild bore fruit. If the Sox were on that same trajectory than we should expect a deep deep playoff run in 2020.  

 

You are measuring the start of Houston's rebuild from the point they started losing. Same with the Cubs. Yet, you measure the Sox rebuild from I assume the end of the 2016 season (although it should be measured from July 2016).  I'm just asking for some consistency.

 Houston hired Lunow in December 2011; they rebuilt in 2012, 2013, 2014 and made the playoffs in 2015
The Cubs hired Theo sometime before the 2012 season. That's when they acquired Rizzo  It was during 2012 when they started trading away their guys like Dempster and Garza.  They lost in 2012, 2013 and 2014. They made the playoffs in 2015.

Both of those were 3 year rebuilds.  They were not 5-6 year rebuilds.

If held to those standards, the Sox would make the playoffs in 2020.

And if they were held to the standards of the Brewers, As or Rays rebuilds.....

Edited May 28, 2019 by GreenSox

[OneDog847]

3 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

Injuries and underperformance are killing the rebuild though. They really don't have much in the minors outside of Cease, Robert, Madrigal and maybe Bush and Collins. When Cease and Robert graduate they're right back to a bottom 10 if not a bottom 5 farm system. They have a few interesting prospects, but it wouldn't surprise me if the Sox have one or zero T100 prospects in July 2020.  I cant think of any interesting prospects outside of Bush and Madrigal once Cease, Robert and Collins graduate. I guess you could consider Rutherford semi-interesting for one more season. 

EDIT: Pilkington is mildly interesting if he's still topping at 91, and if he's back to 93-95 he's interesting. 

Jack gets it. The Sox minors needs a ton of reinforcements. Embrace the tank and stock the farm!

[ptatc]

30 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

He's been in the organization for 15 of the last 19 years.  And Hahn, KW and JR still surround him.  Not exactly a fresh group with new ideas.
Nevertheless, he's had 3 drafts and this is his fourth.  He's had good draft positions (10, 11, 4 and 3).  Shouldn't the Sox thus be expected to stay in the top 10 farms for the foreseeable future, even given the matriculation of the bounty from the Q/Sale/Eaton trades?  And if the Sox don't, does that suggest a problem?

judging by the last few drafts, I think he is taking a different approach.  The polished college hitters whi focus on OBP was never a priority before. So I think he is running the evaluations and draft differently. 

[greg775]

32 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

You are measuring the start of Houston's rebuild from the point they started losing. Same with the Cubs. Yet, you measure the Sox rebuild from I assume the end of the 2016 season (although it should be measured from July 2016).  I'm just asking for some consistency.

  Houston hired Lunow in December 2011; they rebuilt in 2012, 2013, 2014 and made the playoffs in 2015
The Cubs hired Theo sometime before the 2012 season. That's when they acquired Rizzo  It was during 2012 when they started trading away their guys like Dempster and Garza.  They lost in 2012, 2013 and 2014. They made the playoffs in 2015.

Both of those were 3 year rebuilds.  They were not 5-6 year rebuilds.

If held to those standards, the Sox would make the playoffs in 2020.

And if they were held to the standards of the Brewers, As or Rays rebuilds.....

Some Sox fans are always going to be happy because they love the modern era of tank/rebuild and they love the draft. Case closed IMO. In the past I've maintained we "might" have been just as good keeping Q and Sale and Eaton and spending some big bucks to pull a repeat of 05. Caveat: I have the belief we won all 3 trades and they are fine. I just don't see this tank/rebuild thing working better than my way. Remember, our division SUCKS. It doesn't take much to start winning it.

[greg775]

54 minutes ago, OneDog847 said:

I realize those are guesses, but it was in no way obvious that the Twins would be the best team in baseball on Memorial Day. Dude is saying that you can't have a worthwhile opinion on baseball if you didn't see this coming and that is ridiculous. 

Twins may win the Central but they are gonna get destroyed by the Big Boys of the AL East like they have for the past 25 seasons. 

Cleveland has yet to win it all and they did the tank thing. Minnie might yet get hot in the postseason.

[Quin]

8 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Some Sox fans are always going to be happy because they love the modern era of tank/rebuild and they love the draft. Case closed IMO. In the past I've maintained we "might" have been just as good keeping Q and Sale and Eaton and spending some big bucks to pull a repeat of 05. Caveat: I have the belief we won all 3 trades and they are fine. I just don't see this tank/rebuild thing working better than my way. Remember, our division SUCKS. It doesn't take much to start winning it.

Greg every time a free agent signs a big deal, you call it a dumb waste of resources.*

*Usually you aren't wrong on the mega-deals as they aren't for a players' prime. That's why Machado and Harper hurt so bad when they whiffed on them.

[poppysox]

8 hours ago, Quin said:

Greg every time a free agent signs a big deal, you call it a dumb waste of resources.*

*Usually you aren't wrong on the mega-deals as they aren't for a players' prime. That's why Machado and Harper hurt so bad when they whiffed on them.

I like how the Sox have approached this rebuild.  When I look at 2005 there were no mega stars.  They had some moderate power, good defense, great pitching, lockdown bullpen and some speed.  Pods and Iguchi brought a spark but most importantly they had 25 complimentary pieces.  These mega deal guys don't seem to work out all that often.  I think that's because those deals go to power hitters and strike out pitchers.  Guys like Iguchi, Pods, Dye and Rowland were nice complimentary pieces not high priced stars.  We had AJ and Dye and Crede as moderate priced guys who were productive and not expensive.  Kind of McCann like guys.  We will be winning when we get 25 players who do their jobs well.  One or two so called stars are not the answer.  Pitching, timely hitting, speed & and defense is needed on a well balanced wining team.  I will say that half of those 25 men are pitchers. If those 12 or 13 guys aren't good... your wining nothing.

[Quin]

33 minutes ago, poppysox said:

I like how the Sox have approached this rebuild.  When I look at 2005 there were no mega stars.  They had some moderate power, good defense, great pitching, lockdown bullpen and some speed.  Pods and Iguchi brought a spark but most importantly they had 25 complimentary pieces.  These mega deal guys don't seem to work out all that often.  I think that's because those deals go to power hitters and strike out pitchers.  Guys like Iguchi, Pods, Dye and Rowland were nice complimentary pieces not high priced stars.  We had AJ and Dye and Crede as moderate priced guys who were productive and not expensive.  Kind of McCann like guys.  We will be winning when we get 25 players who do their jobs well.  One or two so called stars are not the answer.  Pitching, timely hitting, speed & and defense is needed on a well balanced wining team.  I will say that half of those 25 men are pitchers. If those 12 or 13 guys aren't good... your wining nothing.

The 2005 team was the ultimate lightning in a bottle. You need stars.

Machado's defense, power, and OBP from third base would have kept Moncada at second. We aren't worrying about Madrigal's less-than-amazing (but end of the world like some people make it out to be) performance if we have Machado here.

[Balta1701]

40 minutes ago, poppysox said:

I like how the Sox have approached this rebuild.  When I look at 2005 there were no mega stars.  They had some moderate power, good defense, great pitching, lockdown bullpen and some speed.  Pods and Iguchi brought a spark but most importantly they had 25 complimentary pieces.  These mega deal guys don't seem to work out all that often.  I think that's because those deals go to power hitters and strike out pitchers.  Guys like Iguchi, Pods, Dye and Rowland were nice complimentary pieces not high priced stars.  We had AJ and Dye and Crede as moderate priced guys who were productive and not expensive.  Kind of McCann like guys.  We will be winning when we get 25 players who do their jobs well.  One or two so called stars are not the answer.  Pitching, timely hitting, speed & and defense is needed on a well balanced wining team.  I will say that half of those 25 men are pitchers. If those 12 or 13 guys aren't good... your wining nothing.

The  last 3 teams to win the world series have been loaded with stars. I believe each of them had an MVP winner that season and there's a couple Cy Young contenders in their each time. 

[poppysox]

13 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

The  last 3 teams to win the world series have been loaded with stars. I believe each of them had an MVP winner that season and there's a couple Cy Young contenders in their each time. 

I believe the Sox have potential stars in Anderson, Moncada, Cease & Kopech and we got them how you need to get them...we trade for and draft stars.  Free agency is a very expensive place to shop for this type of player.  However, many items are for sale in the medium price range aisle.  It's a very nice place to shop for your need someone to upgrade this weakness or 3rd or 4th starters.  In business you might say...maximize use of minimal resource.

Edited May 28, 2019 by poppysox

[35thstreetswarm]

1 hour ago, poppysox said:

I believe the Sox have potential stars in Anderson, Moncada, Cease & Kopech and we got them how you need to get them...we trade for and draft stars.  Free agency is a very expensive place to shop for this type of player.  However, many items are for sale in the medium price range aisle.  It's a very nice place to shop for your need someone to upgrade this weakness or 3rd or 4th starters.  In business you might say...maximize use of minimal resource.

I would add Jimenez and Robert to that list, with Giolito starting to look like a maybe.  Some might call that a potential core of a good baseball team.  But there seems to be a belief among some on this board that we need our farm system to produce 5 all-stars a year for the next five  years to have a shot at contending.

[poppysox]

3 minutes ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

I would add Jimenez and Robert to that list, with Giolito starting to look like a maybe.  Some might call that a potential core of a good baseball team.  But there seems to be a belief among some on this board that we need our farm system to produce 5 all-stars a year for the next five  years to have a shot at contending.

I agree that Robert belongs on the list.  I didn't put Jimenez or Madrigal on my list because they do not have 5 tool potential.  Abreu has always been this to me.  Very good player but just ok at defense & speed.  That's why Abreu types can be picked up in free agency without breaking the bank.  Five tool players and TOR pitchers need to be developed internally in order to afford todays game.

[35thstreetswarm]

6 minutes ago, poppysox said:

I agree that Robert belongs on the list.  I didn't put Jimenez or Madrigal on my list because they do not have 5 tool potential.  Abreu has always been this to me.  Very good player but just ok at defense & speed.  That's why Abreu types can be picked up in free agency without breaking the bank.  Five tool players and TOR pitchers need to be developed internally in order to afford todays game.

I think you're in the minority in leaving Eloy Jimenez off a list of "potential stars" of the White Sox (regardless of his tools) but whatever -- my point is that I agree with your sentiment that the Sox org has more star potential than many on this board admit.

Edited May 28, 2019 by 35thstreetswarm

[OneDog847]

23 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I’m not going to defend Reinsdorf, but this idea he won’t spend any money is beyond ludicrous.  He isn’t a Jeff Loria type owner looking to rebuild so he can pocket some revenue sharing money.  I’ll keep repeating it but the organization is going spend big this coming offseason.  I won’t get my hopes up that it will be Rendon & Cole (although I think they will make token efforts for both guys), but there are some nice pieces that could really help us.

Zack Wheeler is 28 years old, throws hard as fuck, and is on pace for a 5 win season.  He can be the defacto ace on a young pitching staff.  If Cease can get like half a year or more of major league seasoning this season, the following rotation should be good enough to contend next year:

1. Wheeler
2. Giolito
3. Cease
4. Kopech
5. Lopez
6. Lambert/Dunning/cheap vet*

The bullpen will no doubt need work, but again, we’ll be sitting on a fuckton of a money and should easily be able to add a quality veteran or two to the mix.

As for the offense, we have three spots 100% filled in 3B, SS, & LF.  Abreu will likely be back on a short-term deal.  McCann at a minimum will be in the mix at catcher if not the starter.  Collins will be in the mix somewhere, whether C, 1B, or DH.  Robert should be ready to go by late April IMO and we can probably get by with some combo of Leury, Tilson, & Cordell in CF for a month.  That leaves our biggest holes in RF, 2B, and possibly DH.

Give me the 28 year old Marcel Ozuna to  fill the hole in RF (dude is destroying the ball this year despite some bad luck and his power would play well at the Cell).  Go sign an older, but still productive 2B  (Forsythe, Kendrick, etc.) to a cheap one year contract to hold down the fort until Madrigal is ready.  And if it’s me, as good as McCann has been, I’m going to add to Grandal as well as he’s simply a game-changer behind the plate.  That leaves you with the following lineup:

1. Moncada, 3B#
2. Anderson, SS
3. Abreu, DH
4. Jimenez, LF
5. Grandal, C#
6. Ozuna, RF
7. Collins, DH*
8. Garcia, CF# (Robert by May 1st)
9. Forsythe, 2B

Tell me that team isn’t good enough to make a run at a shitty AL Central?  And I 100% believe that type of offseason is possible financially despite what you and some others might think.

 

23 hours ago, Timmy U said:

If Zack Wheeler is a #1, Giolito is a HoF candidate.  4.6 era with a 1.3 whip in the best pitching environment in mlb, facing lineups with the pitcher hitting.  No thanks.

Zach Wheeler feels like a Yu Darvish situation waiting to happen. 

 

[WBWSF]

I find it difficult embracing this rebuild/tank. Year after year of losing teams while JR and his investors are laughing all the way to the bank. This White Sox franchise is more profitable today than at anytime in its history. The two previous White Sox owners (John Allyn and Bill Veeck) didn't have the money to compete and both were forced to sell the team. At least both of them wanted winning teams. I don't see that here with JR.

[OneDog847]

1 minute ago, WBWSF said:

I find it difficult embracing this rebuild/tank. Year after year of losing teams while JR and his investors are laughing all the way to the bank. This White Sox franchise is more profitable today than at anytime in its history. The two previous White Sox owners (John Allyn and Bill Veeck) didn't have the money to compete and both were forced to sell the team. At least both of them wanted winning teams. I don't see that here with JR.

Ain't much else you can do but embrace it at this point. As you state, JR and company don't seem inclined to open up the wallet. We need Moncada, Eloy, Anderson, and Robert to turn into guys like Bregman, Altuve, Springer, Baez, Bryant, and it needs to happen soon! 

[ScootsMcGoots]

24 minutes ago, OneDog847 said:

Ain't much else you can do but embrace it at this point. As you state, JR and company don't seem inclined to open up the wallet. We need Moncada, Eloy, Anderson, and Robert to turn into guys like Bregman, Altuve, Springer, Baez, Bryant, and it needs to happen soon! 

Only thing is, those developments arent all going to happen at the same time. You vould say that Tim is there already, although we will see how this wrist thing affects him. I think Moncada is still showing flashes, but Eloy is gonna be a little while, Robert wont even be up until next season. In my humble opinion, this rebuild cant be considered a success or a failure until at least the end of 2024 season when all of these guys have been given ample time to develop into quality major league players

[ChiSox59]

1 minute ago, ScooterMcGee said:

Only thing is, those developments arent all going to happen at the same time. You vould say that Tim is there already, although we will see how this wrist thing affects him. I think Moncada is still showing flashes, but Eloy is gonna be a little while, Robert wont even be up until next season. In my humble opinion, this rebuild cant be considered a success or a failure until at least the end of 2024 season when all of these guys have been given ample time to develop into quality major league players

Lol.  By that point Moncada, Gioltio and Lopez will all be free agents.  Anderson and Kopech will be on the final years of their deals. 

Things need to happen WAYYYYYY faster than that.  

[mqr]

2 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Lol.  By that point Moncada, Gioltio and Lopez will all be free agents.  Anderson and Kopech will be on the final years of their deals. 

Things need to happen WAYYYYYY faster than that.  

I don't think that many people realize that the clock is already ticking and has been for about a year. 

[Thad Bosley]

On 5/27/2019 at 11:05 AM, Chicago White Sox said:

I’m not going to defend Reinsdorf, but this idea he won’t spend any money is beyond ludicrous.  He isn’t a Jeff Loria type owner looking to rebuild so he can pocket some revenue sharing money.  I’ll keep repeating it but the organization is going spend big this coming offseason.  I won’t get my hopes up that it will be Rendon & Cole (although I think they will make token efforts for both guys), but there are some nice pieces that could really help us.

Zack Wheeler is 28 years old, throws hard as fuck, and is on pace for a 5 win season.  He can be the defacto ace on a young pitching staff.  If Cease can get like half a year or more of major league seasoning this season, the following rotation should be good enough to contend next year:

1. Wheeler
2. Giolito
3. Cease
4. Kopech
5. Lopez
6. Lambert/Dunning/cheap vet*

The bullpen will no doubt need work, but again, we’ll be sitting on a fuckton of a money and should easily be able to add a quality veteran or two to the mix.

As for the offense, we have three spots 100% filled in 3B, SS, & LF.  Abreu will likely be back on a short-term deal.  McCann at a minimum will be in the mix at catcher if not the starter.  Collins will be in the mix somewhere, whether C, 1B, or DH.  Robert should be ready to go by late April IMO and we can probably get by with some combo of Leury, Tilson, & Cordell in CF for a month.  That leaves our biggest holes in RF, 2B, and possibly DH.

If they didn't "spend big" this past offseason when they had the most golden opportunity imaginable to address those "biggest holes in RF, 2B", what makes you think they'll change course and do so this upcoming offseason?