Embrace The Tank!!!

[ChiSox59]

9 minutes ago, Fan O'Faust said:

If they didn't "spend big" this past offseason when they had the most golden opportunity imaginable to address those "biggest holes in RF, 2B", what makes you think they'll change course and do so this upcoming offseason?

Because they're actually a year closer to competing.  No one thought this team was going to complete in 2019 - with or without Machado or Harper.  Not sure the same thing can be said in 2020 when everyone has another year of experience under their belt, and Kopech, Cease and Robert joining the mix.  

If the Sox go out and spend $300Mish this offseason on guys like Cole, Ozuna, Grandal, and maybe a supporting piece or two, this fan will forgive them for passing on Machado.  

[mqr]

12 minutes ago, Fan O'Faust said:

If they didn't "spend big" this past offseason when they had the most golden opportunity imaginable to address those "biggest holes in RF, 2B", what makes you think they'll change course and do so this upcoming offseason?

I don't necessarily believe they will, but there is a world of difference between spending 300 million on one guy and 300 million spread out on 3 guys.  

[Thad Bosley]

5 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Because they're actually a year closer to competing.  No one thought this team was going to complete in 2019 - with or without Machado or Harper.  Not sure the same thing can be said in 2020 when everyone has another year of experience under their belt, and Kopech, Cease and Robert joining the mix.  

If the Sox go out and spend $300Mish this offseason on guys like Cole, Ozuna, Grandal, and maybe a supporting piece or two, this fan will forgive them for passing on Machado.  

Machado signed a ten year contract; Harper, a thirteen year one.  We could have signed either/both, and they would have been around for the entire length of whatever the next window of competitiveness is.  

Meanwhile, the operative word in your second paragraph is, of course, "if".  "If" they spend $300Mish.  "If" they spend big on the types of players you mentioned, then yes, we can forget the travesty that was this past offseason.  But you have to admit, with this organization, that's a big "if" at this point.  With history as our guide, the fear is the "spend" will be on a tier of players below the guys you mentioned.  

[ChiSox59]

16 minutes ago, Fan O'Faust said:

Machado signed a ten year contract; Harper, a thirteen year one.  We could have signed either/both, and they would have been around for the entire length of whatever the next window of competitiveness is.  

Meanwhile, the operative word in your second paragraph is, of course, "if".  "If" they spend $300Mish.  "If" they spend big on the types of players you mentioned, then yes, we can forget the travesty that was this past offseason.  But you have to admit, with this organization, that's a big "if" at this point.  With history as our guide, the fear is the "spend" will be on a tier of players below the guys you mentioned.  

I do admit it is a big if.  But this is a big offseason for the organization, and I'd like to think they will right their wrongs.  The org also has to know  - and Hahn has clearly stated as such - that this thing is going to require supplementation from free agency to work.  

Neither Machado or Harper are going to be worth the contract they were given.  But we knew that going in.  Obviously I would have loved to have one of them (moreso MM), but they aren't here.  I think we'll look back on it in 4-5 years as a bullet dodged, but I am hopeful the Sox will reallocate the those funds to very good, but perhaps not elite players.  

Cole + Ozuna or Castellanos + a couple other supporting pieces who be a huge step in that direction. We'll see what happens.  In the meantime, I do think its completely fair to be skeptical that they'll actually do it.  Maybe they go more towards the route the Twins went this year - that is, filling the gaps with with shorter term players.  I personally won't love it, and it would be roasted to high heaven here - but as the Twins are showing, there is more than one way to build a team that wins baseball games. 

[mqr]

Just now, ChiSox59 said:

I do admit it is a big if.  But this is a big offseason for the organization, and I'd like to think they will right their wrongs.  The org also has to know  - and Hahn has clearly stated as such - that this thing is going to require supplementation from free agency to work.  

Neither Machado or Harper are going to be worth the contract they were given.  But we knew that going in.  Obviously I would have loved to have one of them (moreso MM), but they aren't here.  I think we'll look back on it in 4-5 years as a bullet dodged, but I am hopeful the Sox will reallocate the those funds to very good, but perhaps not elite players.  

Cole + Ozuna or Castellanos + a couple other supporting pieces who be a huge step in that direction. We'll see what happens.  In the meantime, I do think its completely fair to be skeptical that they'll actually do it.  Maybe they go more towards the route the Twins went this year - that is, filling the gaps with with shorter term players.  I personally won't love it, and it would be roasted to high heaven here - but as the Twins are showing, there is more than one way to build a team that wins baseball games. 

The way this thing went down was embarrassing on every level, but if he would have signed with the yankees in like December, nobody would care nearly as much as they do. I wanted him, and I wanted him bad, but we have to acknowledge the fact signing either guy had just as good a chance at scuttling the whole rebuild as it did getting it off the ground. 

 

[steveno89]

8 minutes ago, mqr said:

The way this thing went down was embarrassing on every level, but if he would have signed with the yankees in like December, nobody would care nearly as much as they do. I wanted him, and I wanted him bad, but we have to acknowledge the fact signing either guy had just as good a chance at scuttling the whole rebuild as it did getting it off the ground. 

 

Almost a bigger concern than the lack of free agent spending, is how crappy our farm system has been in 2019 so far. Madrigal has been so-so, Robert has been great, but beyond that nearly the entire system has underwhelmed. 

[mqr]

10 minutes ago, steveno89 said:

Almost a bigger concern than the lack of free agent spending, is how crappy our farm system has been in 2019 so far. Madrigal has been so-so, Robert has been great, but beyond that nearly the entire system has underwhelmed. 

Agreed, but Basabe and Gonzalez seem to be figuring it out a little. Basabe's numbers were always going to look iffy after he broke his hand. 

[SonofaRoache]

I was not a fan of a full rebuild previously, but since we are not a big spending team I was okay with it. Since we had assets to trade that could shorten our rebuild I was okay with it. Now, I am getting concerned because our big boys aren't showing consistency and greatness just yet and we are already near 2020 when most of us thought we could compete. If we suck next year it will be a huge disappointment. It's time to get guys up here soon and to bring in high ende talent from other organizations. I'd like to win 86 games next year. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

On 5/26/2019 at 5:38 PM, NWINFan said:

Some fans are assuming Cease and Kopech will be dominating pitchers. Maybe they will be, but I'm not assuming anything. I know nothing of Cease, but Kopech needs to work on his command on his return.

The Sox really can't even assume Kopech and Dunning will be back 100 % from TJ . Burdi is taking a while , Wheeler from the Mes had TJ and it took him over 2 years to get his stuff back together. It's not a given that once cleared to pitch that they actually will pitch or pitch effectively.

[ptatc]

54 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

The Sox really can't even assume Kopech and Dunning will be back 100 % from TJ . Burdi is taking a while , Wheeler from the Mes had TJ and it took him over 2 years to get his stuff back together. It's not a given that once cleared to pitch that they actually will pitch or pitch effectively.

they want be 100% but the should be decent. For kopech that better than many of the 5th starters the six have been running out there. 

[Dick Allen]

17 minutes ago, ptatc said:

they want be 100% but the should be decent. For kopech that better than many of the 5th starters the six have been running out there. 

I hope you are right. Some guys you forget ever had the surgery. For some it seems to be a career killer. 

[ScootsMcGoots]

In order for this thing to work, we need surprises to happen, just like Bummer. What a pitcher he is turning out to be, and if he continues what hes doing, well, there is one of our future set-up guys. Gio is another nice surprise. We need these guys to fail, go home and get their shit together for an offseasom, and come back totally reinvented and ready to win. That's what it's going to take.

[ptatc]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

I hope you are right. Some guys you forget ever had the surgery. For some it seems to be a career killer. 

Very true. The "return to previous level of sport" rate is about 85% at the MLB level. Those are good odds but there is that 15% chance they don't

[Richie]

People need to stop with the reactionary nonsense. Yes, the Minnesota series was bad... but guess what? They're obliterating everyone. 

A couple days prior we were all jazzed up about how good we looked vs another elite team in Houston. 

 

 

[greg775]

On 5/27/2019 at 10:04 PM, Quin said:

Greg every time a free agent signs a big deal, you call it a dumb waste of resources.*

*Usually you aren't wrong on the mega-deals as they aren't for a players' prime. That's why Machado and Harper hurt so bad when they whiffed on them.

True, that I haven't been a fan of many many of our acquisitions. They just seem to sign guys that don't excite me AT ALL. Yes almost every signing has angered me. John Jay, Beef, even McCann (who I think I may be wrong about), Soria, other relievers. That would change if they signed somebody I liked. For instance remember all the rumors of Markakis being a Sox? I always wanted him. I did want Harper, not so much Manny.

[Quin]

1 minute ago, greg775 said:

True, that I haven't been a fan of many many of our acquisitions. They just seem to sign guys that don't excite me AT ALL. Yes almost every signing has angered me. John Jay, Beef, even McCann (who I think I may be wrong about), Soria, other relievers. That would change if they signed somebody I liked. For instance remember all the rumors of Markakis being a Sox? I always wanted him. I did want Harper, not so much Manny.

Greg, I mean every single big free agent signing in MLB. Not the Sox. You routinely slam them, especially pitchers, as dumb spending.

[poppysox]

7 hours ago, greg775 said:

True, that I haven't been a fan of many many of our acquisitions. They just seem to sign guys that don't excite me AT ALL. Yes almost every signing has angered me. John Jay, Beef, even McCann (who I think I may be wrong about), Soria, other relievers. That would change if they signed somebody I liked. For instance remember all the rumors of Markakis being a Sox? I always wanted him. I did want Harper, not so much Manny.

Markakis types are IMO what we should use free agency for.  Plug your holes with competent performers.  Chasing and overpaying for your stars just doesn't seem to work.  Your own system needs to develop the stars and we are doing a good job of that.

[poppysox]

On 5/26/2019 at 5:34 PM, OneDog847 said:

My concern is that the young blood is not as good as advertised. 

Cease should be up by the all star break. Maybe Collins too. Neither of those guys are gonna push the needle much though. 

The losing isn't stopping on the South Side anytime soon and that is okay. Top 5 picks are more important than wins and losses right now. 

Yesterday Robert went 4 for 5 with 3 rbi and a walk off double.  Not long now!

[35thstreetswarm]

13 hours ago, Richie said:

People need to stop with the reactionary nonsense. Yes, the Minnesota series was bad... but guess what? They're obliterating everyone. 

A couple days prior we were all jazzed up about how good we looked vs another elite team in Houston. 

 

 

We just won two games in one day -- we're 2021 contenders again!

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, poppysox said:

Markakis types are IMO what we should use free agency for.  Plug your holes with competent performers.  Chasing and overpaying for your stars just doesn't seem to work.  Your own system needs to develop the stars and we are doing a good job of that.

DH: Adam LaRoche
LF: Melky Cabrera
IF: Gordon Beckham
IF: Emilio Bonifacio
Catcher:  Geovanny Soto
RP: David Robertson
RP: Jesse Crain
RP: Zach Duke
RP: Matt Albers

P: Jacob Turner
CF: Austin Jackson
SP: Mat Latos
Catcher: Alex Avila
Catcher: Dioner Navarro
RP: Matt Albers
SS:  Jimmy Rollins

[poppysox]

6 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

DH: Adam LaRoche
LF: Melky Cabrera
IF: Gordon Beckham
IF: Emilio Bonifacio
Catcher:  Geovanny Soto
RP: David Robertson
RP: Jesse Crain
RP: Zach Duke
RP: Matt Albers

P: Jacob Turner
CF: Austin Jackson
SP: Mat Latos
Catcher: Alex Avila
Catcher: Dioner Navarro
RP: Matt Albers
SS:  Jimmy Rollins

You do have to be a careful shopper.

[Thad Bosley]

7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

DH: Adam LaRoche
LF: Melky Cabrera
IF: Gordon Beckham
IF: Emilio Bonifacio
Catcher:  Geovanny Soto
RP: David Robertson
RP: Jesse Crain
RP: Zach Duke
RP: Matt Albers

P: Jacob Turner
CF: Austin Jackson
SP: Mat Latos
Catcher: Alex Avila
Catcher: Dioner Navarro
RP: Matt Albers
SS:  Jimmy Rollins

[mqr]

44 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

DH: Adam LaRoche
LF: Melky Cabrera
IF: Gordon Beckham
IF: Emilio Bonifacio
Catcher:  Geovanny Soto
RP: David Robertson
RP: Jesse Crain
RP: Zach Duke
RP: Matt Albers

P: Jacob Turner
CF: Austin Jackson
SP: Mat Latos
Catcher: Alex Avila
Catcher: Dioner Navarro
RP: Matt Albers
SS:  Jimmy Rollins

Counterpoint: look at the teams in Minnesota and Milwaukee

[Moan4Yoan]

2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

DH: Adam LaRoche
LF: Melky Cabrera
IF: Gordon Beckham
IF: Emilio Bonifacio
Catcher:  Geovanny Soto
RP: David Robertson
RP: Jesse Crain
RP: Zach Duke
RP: Matt Albers

P: Jacob Turner
CF: Austin Jackson
SP: Mat Latos
Catcher: Alex Avila
Catcher: Dioner Navarro
RP: Matt Albers
SS:  Jimmy Rollins

Rich Hahn, ladies and gentlemen.  ??

[poppysox]

On 5/28/2019 at 11:45 AM, Fan O'Faust said:

Machado signed a ten year contract; Harper, a thirteen year one.  We could have signed either/both, and they would have been around for the entire length of whatever the next window of competitiveness is.  

Meanwhile, the operative word in your second paragraph is, of course, "if".  "If" they spend $300Mish.  "If" they spend big on the types of players you mentioned, then yes, we can forget the travesty that was this past offseason.  But you have to admit, with this organization, that's a big "if" at this point.  With history as our guide, the fear is the "spend" will be on a tier of players below the guys you mentioned.  

It seems a perfectly logical baseball decision to spend what money is available on several very good players rather than 1 excellent player.  Whatever RH and the FO feel is maximizing the available resources.  What they decide to get with those resources is the question.  Harping on the Alonso/Jay stuff is water under the bridge.  I personally hope available money goes to pitching, pitching and more pitching.  Never have enough.  The every day lineup is looking better all the time.  When the Alonso situation is resolved and Robert arrives it will take care of itself.