Colome remains with White Sox, who always had ample interest in him

[Richie]

32 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

At this point, bringing in Bumgarner or assuming Greinke’s salary would be similar moves, too.

Well, Greinke would solve the right field problem for us as well, right? With his 1000+ OPS (151 OPS+) - he's a two way phenom. So, really... he's killing two birds with one stone. ?

[wegner]

9 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Frankly, I still think this is the wrong way to look at FA. 

I look at the 2015-2016 and frankly 2019 classes and think that's how it normally works. Every so often you get one person who "James McCanns" it and overperforms, but for every one of them there are 3 Alonso/Dunn/LaRoches who totally underperform (acknowledging Alonso was a trade) and a couple of David Robertson types who are at least fairly paid.

If you are counting on your free agents overperforming their contracts and carrying you to your title, your strategy is unlikely to succeed. It might work once, but that's almost consistently blind luck. Even the teams with good front offices have bad signings. 

Instead, Free Agency is the icing on the cake. If you want your team to win 95 games, your team better be a 93 win team on its own before you go out and spend your money, and if you spend $30 million you might get lucky and turn it into a 98 win team, you might win 94 games, but at least you filled some holes. Free Agency does not reshape your ballclub and if you're relying on finding an MVP candidate in free agency to turn around your club, you will fail. 

Get a couple of decent players next offseason, expect that 1 or 2 of your signings are going to totally bust, and then set about making sure you have your needs covered as well as you can. 

 

I agree with you that the team has to make most of its improvement internally.  If the young guys do not work out, free agency is going to give us nothing but hope for lightning in a bottle.  I am just saying that I doubt the Sox are going to sign the premier free agents, so they better come in quickly at fair market for the tier 2 free agents to supplement a young core that needs to be getting better. 

And like I have said before, I just do not trust Hahn to trade the right "surplus" prospects to fill our holes.

[GreenSox]

22 hours ago, vilehoopster said:

You don't win by trading your good players. 

Well there's the problem:  they aren't winning with their best players either and haven't in over a decade.

then again, Seattle got a .852 OPS catcher with 11 homers out of trading Colome.

Edited June 25, 2019 by GreenSox

[Lip Man 1]

38 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

Well there's the problem:  they aren't winning with their best players either and haven't in over a decade.

then again, Seattle got a .852 OPS catcher with 11 homers out of trading Colome.

I wouldn't necessarily use home runs as a basis for deciding if a trade was good or bad. EVERYBODY is hitting home runs and Manfred last week admitted a change in the ball is part of the reason. I assume they will adjust the baseball moving forward and you may not see as many guys hitting them in such high numbers.

And speaking of numbers Colome is 16 for 16 in saves, setting a Sox team record for best start ever for a relief pitcher breaking Dustin Hermanson's 15-15 set in 2005...so it is not like he's chopped liver or if you will crap like Santana, Nova, Alonso or Jay.

Edited June 25, 2019 by Lip Man 1

[GreenSox]

14 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

And speaking of numbers Colome is 16 for 16 in saves, setting a Sox team record for best start ever for a relief pitcher breaking Dustin Hermanson's 15-15 set in 2005...so it is not like he's chopped liver or if you will crap like Santana, Nova, Alonso or Jay.

Colome's a good player; they just a high price for him.  So far, it's 1.5 WAR and 4 years of control sent away for incoming .2 WAR and 2 years of control.  If Narvaez sustains, he would have been a core piece (which basically stands at 4 right now).  Colome is not.

Edited June 26, 2019 by GreenSox

[caulfield12]

6 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

Colome's a good player; they just a high price for him.  So far, it's 1.5 WAR and 4 years of control sent away for incoming .2 WAR and 2 years of control.  If Narvaez sustains, he would have been a core piece (which basically stands at 4 right now).  Colome is not.

McCann has been worth 2.0, so it’s not a big deal if we keep him long term and he’s a 2-3 fWAR contributor.

 

Santana -0.4

Nova 0.4

Banuelos -0.5

Alonso -1.1

K.Herrera 0.3

Colome 0.2 

Basically, all the money we spent and players we brought in have contributed about 1 fWAR if you include McCann...but then there’s the loss of Narvaez so the whole offseason basically cancels itself out, and wastes $30-35 million or whatever the total is.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Reliever WAR is a bit crazy to use. Mariano Rivera, who was a no doubt first ballot HOFer, made it to 3 WAR a couple of times, but was generally a 2-2.5 guy. So using a reliever's WAR vs. a position player's isn't really accurate.

[caulfield12]

Yeah, there’s no way that Herrera is better than Colome, that’s just nuts.  

Bummer currently is 0.6, for example (started his career at -0.5, then 0.8 last year.)   Jace Fry has gone from 1.3 to 0.1, for a comp.

Edited June 26, 2019 by caulfield12

[Princess Dye]

33 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Reliever WAR is a bit crazy to use. Mariano Rivera, who was a no doubt first ballot HOFer, made it to 3 WAR a couple of times, but was generally a 2-2.5 guy. So using a reliever's WAR vs. a position player's isn't really accurate.

Or it's that WAR is accurate, and the thought process you have here shows how relievers are not as vital as we think they are (over the course of a year)

[Harold's Leg Lift]

8 minutes ago, Princess Dye said:

Or it's that WAR is accurate, and the thought process you have here shows how relievers are not as vital as we think they are (over the course of a year)

Ding! Ding!

[poppysox]

1 hour ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

Ding! Ding!

Try winning a WS without a top flight pen.  Can't be done.

[steveno89]

48 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Try winning a WS without a top flight pen.  Can't be done.

Agreed. Real contenders have a reliable bullpen that does not blow leads. 

[mqr]

1 hour ago, poppysox said:

Try winning a WS without a top flight pen.  Can't be done.

Can't have a top flight pen with one guy

[poppysox]

2 minutes ago, mqr said:

Can't have a top flight pen with one guy

I think it's safe to say the Colome & Bummer qualify.

[Lip Man 1]

5 minutes ago, poppysox said:

I think it's safe to say the Colome & Bummer qualify.

Two guys will not get you through a season sir. You need quality AND depth. The Sox right now have a little of the first and none of the second.

[mqr]

3 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

Reliever WAR is a bit crazy to use. Mariano Rivera, who was a no doubt first ballot HOFer, made it to 3 WAR a couple of times, but was generally a 2-2.5 guy. So using a reliever's WAR vs. a position player's isn't really accurate.

Mariano Rivera is a no doubt hall of famer the way that Devin Hester should be. He was the absolute best ever at what he did, but that doesn't make him as valuable as Barry Bonds/Tom Brady. 

I think what you're really arguing against is how much WAR should be factored into HOF discussions. One lone reliever truly is not that valuable.

[Harold's Leg Lift]

30 minutes ago, poppysox said:

I think it's safe to say the Colome & Bummer qualify.

2018:  I think it's safe to say Luis Avilan and Jace Fry qualify.  

[poppysox]

1 hour ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Two guys will not get you through a season sir. You need quality AND depth. The Sox right now have a little of the first and none of the second.

I was referring to mgr. saying one can't have a top flight pen with one guy.

Edited June 26, 2019 by poppysox

[Chicago White Sox]

4 hours ago, Princess Dye said:

Or it's that WAR is accurate, and the thought process you have here shows how relievers are not as vital as we think they are (over the course of a year)

WAR ignores all context and doesn’t account for the fact a good reliever comes in late in the game with a win on the line.  There is significant value being able to hold a lead late or close a game out and that’s completely ignored by WAR.

[BackDoorBreach]

WAR for RP/CP is stupid to lean on.  Idk why this is even being debated.

[bmags]

unfortunately with colome's blown save his value probably cratered.

[Harold's Leg Lift]

Yep.  Not nearly as good of a pitcher as he was yesterday.  It's really a shame.  

[Moan4Yoan]

Here’s my viewpoint and I think a lot of people would agree.

Yes, Colome is a very nice closer but he is only under control for one more season at around $9 million.  Even if he is traded, the Sox could potentially acquire another closer in the offseason with that $9 million or an in-house option could succeed in the closer role and the Sox could spend that $9 million elsewhere.

To me, the potential to use Colome to acquire a young prospect with years of control outweighs the risks of not having Colome for one more year over another outside or in-house alternative at closer.

[poppysox]

4 hours ago, bmags said:

unfortunately with colome's blown save his value probably cratered.

I know it not worth much...he did pick up his third win.

[Bob Sacamano]

2 hours ago, Moan4Yoan said:

Here’s my viewpoint and I think a lot of people would agree.

Yes, Colome is a very nice closer but he is only under control for one more season at around $9 million.  Even if he is traded, the Sox could potentially acquire another closer in the offseason with that $9 million or an in-house option could succeed in the closer role and the Sox could spend that $9 million elsewhere.

To me, the potential to use Colome to acquire a young prospect with years of control outweighs the risks of not having Colome for one more year over another outside or in-house alternative at closer.

Who? Theres no one available. Unless you are referring to the trade route.