OneDog847 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 24 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: If you can get a top 100 prospect you do it in a heartbeat. He can replaced next offseason with all the cash we have. No way that Colome nets you a top 100 prospect. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, OneDog847 said: No way that Colome nets you a top 100 prospect. If that is the case, then it is pointless to trade him. At that point it is nothing more than a salary dump. It also does not get the Sox closer to a WS. Edited June 25, 2019 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 After this week when the Sox are eight or nine under they need to explore all possible trade options for both him and Jose'. However if they don't bring back something decent, then keep them and see what happens in the off season. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 12 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said: After this week when the Sox are eight or nine under they need to explore all possible trade options for both him and Jose'. However if they don't bring back something decent, then keep them and see what happens in the off season. There is a reason to keep Colome because he is under control next year. There really is no argument for keeping Abreu. If you can get anything of value for him, move him and re-sign him in the offseason if you want to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 Add the A's as an option. https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2019/06/athletics-hoping-to-bolster-bullpen.html As for if he could go for a Top 100, I think he very well could. A back-half top 100 from a team that is deep and maybe has 5-6 Top 100 spects on the list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 18 minutes ago, soxfan2014 said: Add the A's as an option. https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2019/06/athletics-hoping-to-bolster-bullpen.html As for if he could go for a Top 100, I think he very well could. A back-half top 100 from a team that is deep and maybe has 5-6 Top 100 spects on the list. My guess...he will bring a major league ready player or will not be traded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 3 minutes ago, poppysox said: My guess...he will bring a major league ready player or will not be traded. Maybe a corner OF? Don't the Cardinals have enough MLB-ready OF that they could possibly deal us? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 Will there be one team who thinks a quality back end of the pen relief pitcher is what they need to go deep in the playoffs. I think the answer is an obvious yes. If that team was the White Sox what would you be willing to give up. Lots of people on this board would give up whatever it took. As I keep saying...Hahn has always gotten a boat load when he has something good to sell. I have no doubt...we will be well compensated if he decides to trade Colome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 38 minutes ago, poppysox said: Will there be one team who thinks a quality back end of the pen relief pitcher is what they need to go deep in the playoffs. I think the answer is an obvious yes. If that team was the White Sox what would you be willing to give up. Lots of people on this board would give up whatever it took. As I keep saying...Hahn has always gotten a boat load when he has something good to sell. I have no doubt...we will be well compensated if he decides to trade Colome. Frazier, Robertson and Kahnle were pretty good at that time...especially the latter two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneDog847 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 17 hours ago, Sox Fan In Husker Land said: I would love for the Sox to flip Colome for Carlson. On top of the fielding grades you listed and being a switch hitter, he has had over a 10% BB Rate, K Rate around 18% the last 2 seasons, ISO over .200 in AA as a 20 year old, 129 wRC+. That would potentially fix the RF hole the Sox have. Sox Potential 2021 Lineup CF - Robert (R) 3B - Moncada (S) LF - Eloy (R) 1B/DH - Vaughn (R) C - McCann (R) or FA C/DH/1B - Collins (L) SS - TA (R) 2B - Madrigal (R) RF - Carlson (S) 13 hours ago, Moan4Yoan said: I’d trade Colome for Carlson as well. Carlson looks like he’s hitting for more power this year and his walk/strikeout rate is improving. He’s only 20, a switch hitter, and is currently hitting well at AA. It doesn’t hurt that he has been developed in the Cardinals organization either. He is likely around the same ETA as Robert and Madrigal. I’d love to add him for RF. His prospect ranking is probably due to rise a bit from #88 but maybe he would be a realistic target for 1.5 years of Colome. The Cards are not giving up Carlson for Colome. Carlson is only 20 and is already holding his own and more in AA. Someone like Lane Thomas or a lotto ticket like Jhon Torres is a more realistic get from the Cards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneDog847 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 2 hours ago, soxfan2014 said: Add the A's as an option. https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2019/06/athletics-hoping-to-bolster-bullpen.html As for if he could go for a Top 100, I think he very well could. A back-half top 100 from a team that is deep and maybe has 5-6 Top 100 spects on the list. Oakland has a pretty good farm. Someone like Austin Beck, Jorge Mateo, or Sheldon Nuese might be attainable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 5 hours ago, caulfield12 said: Frazier, Robertson and Kahnle were pretty good at that time...especially the latter two. Part of that deal was taking Frazier off our hands for salary relief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 5 hours ago, caulfield12 said: Frazier, Robertson and Kahnle were pretty good at that time...especially the latter two. Robertson was good but he wasn't worth a penny more than his salary so it's not as if he had surplus value that warranted a good prospect. Kahnle had been good for like 8 months and he was a reliever with control issues. Frazier was similar to robertson but even worse because he was worth a little less than his production. People really exaggerate the value of Kahnle and the guys in that deal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 10 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Robertson was good but he wasn't worth a penny more than his salary so it's not as if he had surplus value that warranted a good prospect. Kahnle had been good for like 8 months and he was a reliever with control issues. Frazier was similar to robertson but even worse because he was worth a little less than his production. People really exaggerate the value of Kahnle and the guys in that deal. Kahnle's value to a team like the Yankees was through the roof at the time of that deal. They were trying to get under the luxury tax for 2018, which meant they could take on money for 2017 (Robertson) but not long-term money. At the time of the deal, Kahnle had one of the highest strikeout rates in baseball, which also meant that even if control issues surfaced, if he was healthy he was likely to remain a solid pitcher. HE had one of the highest WAR amongst relievers in baseball at the time of the deal. And...he had a whopping 5 years of control remaining. That deal was basically Kahnle, a guy with 5 years of control and stats way better than Colome, for a top 75 prospect. The rest was filler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Kahnle's value to a team like the Yankees was through the roof at the time of that deal. They were trying to get under the luxury tax for 2018, which meant they could take on money for 2017 (Robertson) but not long-term money. At the time of the deal, Kahnle had one of the highest strikeout rates in baseball, which also meant that even if control issues surfaced, if he was healthy he was likely to remain a solid pitcher. HE had one of the highest WAR amongst relievers in baseball at the time of the deal. And...he had a whopping 5 years of control remaining. That deal was basically Kahnle, a guy with 5 years of control and stats way better than Colome, for a top 75 prospect. The rest was filler. Relievers with 40 elite innings of production and 200 of shit do not have a lot of value regardless of their current WAR and etc. If you think Tommy Kahnle, with one half of MLB success, is more valuable than a career performer out of the bullpen I think youd be mistaken but I could be wrong and the yankees could have believed in the new kahnle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 4 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: Kahnle's value to a team like the Yankees was through the roof at the time of that deal. They were trying to get under the luxury tax for 2018, which meant they could take on money for 2017 (Robertson) but not long-term money. At the time of the deal, Kahnle had one of the highest strikeout rates in baseball, which also meant that even if control issues surfaced, if he was healthy he was likely to remain a solid pitcher. HE had one of the highest WAR amongst relievers in baseball at the time of the deal. And...he had a whopping 5 years of control remaining. That deal was basically Kahnle, a guy with 5 years of control and stats way better than Colome, for a top 75 prospect. The rest was filler. Except for the fact that Hahn’s biggest boosters pushed Robertson like it was a very good signing all along, or that he wasn’t actually overpaid (“fair market value” must have been thrown out hundreds of times)...largely because it was even harder to argue for LaRoche or Melky in that trio of signings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wegner Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 44 minutes ago, poppysox said: Part of that deal was taking Frazier off our hands for salary relief. The 2 phrases that I do not want to hear from this organization any time soon are "salary relief" and "financial flexibility" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 Just now, caulfield12 said: Except for the fact that Hahn’s biggest boosters pushed Robertson like it was a very good signing all along, or that he wasn’t actually overpaid (“fair market value” must have been thrown out hundreds of times)...largely because it was even harder to argue for LaRoche or Melky in that trio of signings. Robertson was signed at Fair Market Value. He had a tiny bit of trade value as a reliever available at the trade deadline who was expensive but could fill a bullpen role, but nothing more than that. Colome and Robertson are roughly similar level performers, closers on mediocre teams or setup guys on teams with good bullpens, Robertson was just owed about $8 million more than Colome will be over the next 2 years, so Colome is more valuable than Robertson was at the time since he's a little bit cheaper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneDog847 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 Just now, caulfield12 said: Except for the fact that Hahn’s biggest boosters pushed Robertson like it was a very good signing all along, or that he wasn’t actually overpaid (“fair market value” must have been thrown out hundreds of times)...largely because it was even harder to argue for LaRoche or Melky in that trio of signings. My fear is that we are going to see a trio of signings similar to Robertson/Melky/LaRoche this offseason. A Michael Wacha here, A Yasiel Puig there, and a Alex Wood over there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 1 minute ago, wegner said: The 2 phrases that I do not want to hear from this organization any time soon are "salary relief" and "financial flexibility" We’ve made a number of trades with those terms attached since Zach Duke...with very little return in terms of impact talent coming back. In fact, Leury Garcia from the Rios trade to Texas ages ago might be the best example. As far as exchanging Colome for Narvaez...it still remains to be seen on that front whether we eventually come out ahead. I suppose Hahn would make the argument that signing LUIS Robert made it all worth it, but we didn’t plow another $20-30 million into multiple impact players that international class after we already had entered the penalty phase...so some of the potential advantage was negated. Or we created “financial flexibility” with the Indians in the case of Alonso...and completely blocked Palka in the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 7 minutes ago, OneDog847 said: My fear is that we are going to see a trio of signings similar to Robertson/Melky/LaRoche this offseason. A Michael Wacha here, A Yasiel Puig there, and a Alex Wood over there. You are probably right but if for once those guys actually produce, I won't care it will help the team. The rub of course is if they actually produce. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, OneDog847 said: My fear is that we are going to see a trio of signings similar to Robertson/Melky/LaRoche this offseason. A Michael Wacha here, A Yasiel Puig there, and a Alex Wood over there. At this point, bringing in Bumgarner or assuming Greinke’s salary would be similar moves, too. Or believing Cooper can fix Wheeler because the Mets are so messed up, etc. Assuming the White Sox are going to sign Cole, Ozuna and Grandal, on the other hand...well, we went through that this past offseason. Rick Hahn had the absolute worst timing with this because it feels like 75% of the true impact players in these next two classes are already off the board after signing extensions, unfortunately. There’s also probably 5-7 high impact pitchers with 2-3 years remaining on their current deals...but we just don’t have attractive enough horses to deal beyond our our four current Top 100 milb players. Finally, the international market has been pretty much a dead end since Robert. Edited June 25, 2019 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 6 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said: You are probably right but if for once those guys actually produce, I won't care it will help the team. The rub of course is if they actually produce. It’s still back to 2004-2005 when we have to hope the exact perfect combination of veteran additions will put us over the top. Prior to that, we really lucked into Contreras (Yankees desperate to get him off the roster because of his failings against the Red Sox) and had the trade pieces and family connection with Guillen to bring Freddy Garcia on board. Without those two moves....KW’s perfect offseason in 2004-05 and the formation of the best bullpen in Sox history wouldn’t have even gotten us past the Indians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wegner Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 10 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said: You are probably right but if for once those guys actually produce, I won't care it will help the team. The rub of course is if they actually produce. The Sox will not be signing the big free agents so we are going to have to get lucky and sign more Jermaines Dyes and less Jeff Keppingers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 22 minutes ago, wegner said: The Sox will not be signing the big free agents so we are going to have to get lucky and sign more Jermaines Dyes and less Jeff Keppingers. Frankly, I still think this is the wrong way to look at FA. I look at the 2015-2016 and frankly 2019 classes and think that's how it normally works. Every so often you get one person who "James McCanns" it and overperforms, but for every one of them there are 3 Alonso/Dunn/LaRoches who totally underperform (acknowledging Alonso was a trade) and a couple of David Robertson types who are at least fairly paid. If you are counting on your free agents overperforming their contracts and carrying you to your title, your strategy is unlikely to succeed. It might work once, but that's almost consistently blind luck. Even the teams with good front offices have bad signings. Instead, Free Agency is the icing on the cake. If you want your team to win 95 games, your team better be a 93 win team on its own before you go out and spend your money, and if you spend $30 million you might get lucky and turn it into a 98 win team, you might win 94 games, but at least you filled some holes. Free Agency does not reshape your ballclub and if you're relying on finding an MVP candidate in free agency to turn around your club, you will fail. Get a couple of decent players next offseason, expect that 1 or 2 of your signings are going to totally bust, and then set about making sure you have your needs covered as well as you can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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