Richie Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 13 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said: They didn't "find" Colome, they traded for him. What? That sort of warrants an even bigger thumbs up for RH. He went out of his way to negotiate a deal for Colome, despite him not being on the open market. I'm not some RH apologist, but you're really going out of your way to discredit him anyway you possibly can. This part doesn't even make sense... A guy who led the league if I remember correctly in saves a few years ago. Some "find." ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted June 4, 2019 Share Posted June 4, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Richie said: What? That sort of warrants an even bigger thumbs up for RH. He went out of his way to negotiate a deal for Colome, despite him not being on the open market. I'm not some RH apologist, but you're really going out of your way to discredit him anyway you possibly can. This part doesn't even make sense... A guy who led the league if I remember correctly in saves a few years ago. Some "find." ? The point is the guy was already an established late inning guy. It doesn't necessarily take a genius to discover those does it? And I don't get any pleasure out of calling out the front office... as I wrote individuals on this site have listed Hahn's free agent signings in detail here, maybe four of five of the large number actually produced when with the Sox based on WAR. That's bad now matter how you want to spin it. Give credit for McCann (a major thumbs up) now balance that against Jay, Alonso, Herrera and Santana from this past off season. Doesn't look very good does it? Edited June 4, 2019 by Lip Man 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted June 5, 2019 Share Posted June 5, 2019 (edited) 9 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said: The point is the guy was already an established late inning guy. It doesn't necessarily take a genius to discover those does it? And I don't get any pleasure out of calling out the front office... as I wrote individuals on this site have listed Hahn's free agent signings in detail here, maybe four of five of the large number actually produced when with the Sox based on WAR. That's bad now matter how you want to spin it. Give credit for McCann (a major thumbs up) now balance that against Jay, Alonso, Herrera and Santana from this past off season. Doesn't look very good does it? Don’t forget Nova ($9 million). And Lip Man’s point is that it wasn’t exactly tough to identify Colome as a good trade target for closer. Colome has been exactly that in his career — a good reliever and closer. McCann is a much more impressive pickup because he had one decent year offensively and Hahn signed him for $2.5 million. Both guys are performing well above what was expected but many people could have predicted Colome being successful as a closer due to his career resume. Edited June 5, 2019 by Moan4Yoan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted June 5, 2019 Share Posted June 5, 2019 On 6/4/2019 at 11:35 AM, Lip Man 1 said: They didn't "find" Colome, they traded for him. A guy who led the league if I remember correctly in saves a few years ago. Some "find." I certainly give them McCann but as others have posted here the organizations history of free agent signings the past several years has been dismal (at best...) starting with Keppinger and working from there. Your semantics argument about the meaning of find is not worthy of further comment other than to say you argue for arguments sake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted June 5, 2019 Share Posted June 5, 2019 Just now, poppysox said: Your semantics argument about the meaning of find is not worthy of further comment other than to say you argue for arguments sake. Right...anything you say. Please see Moan4Yoan's post directly above yours for a better explanation. In point of fact, Rick's overall track record is signing free agents has been dismal at best. He's been better with trades but that a low bar to clear in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Hibbard Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 (edited) I don’t know, guys. Taking obviously stopgap moves like Alonso and Jay and Herrera and Nova and Santana and even McCann and stating those are some sort or referendum on free agent signings or a waste of millions that could have gone to Machado is incredibly myopic IMO. It’s not like Alonso and Jay were taking money the Sox somehow would have otherwise had for Machado. Don’t fall for the company line. The Sox flat out had money for everyone they want, and made a choice not to go as high as they needed to for Machado. I hated it at the time but honestly - I’ve been impressed enough with what I’ve seen from NON stopgap pieces to wonder if passing on Machado ends up being better anyway. More importantly, whether Alonso and Nova and the others performed at a decent level or performed badly, the Sox still don’t win this division, they still move on to other pieces in 2020 and 2021, and they still don’t matter. Would it be better if they were better? Sure. Is it somehow extremely damning they aren’t? Nah. I think some people are resorting to utter histrionics when it comes to these things, but in the long run, the money and their performance is absolutely inconsequential to the long term success of the Sox. the most important things RH should be judged on are the performance of the young talent he has acquired during his tenure either by draft or trade (Giolito, Lopez, Cease, Kopech, Anderson, Moncada, Robert, Madrigal, Collins, Vaughn, etc) and the big name free agents he will sign in years that actually matter. Edited June 6, 2019 by Greg Hibbard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Greg Hibbard said: I don’t know, guys. Taking obviously stopgap moves like Alonso and Jay and Herrera and Nova and Santana and even McCann and stating those are some sort or referendum on free agent signings or a waste of millions that could have gone to Machado is incredibly myopic IMO. It’s not like Alonso and Jay were taking money the Sox somehow would have otherwise had for Machado. Don’t fall for the company line. The Sox flat out had money for everyone they want, and made a choice not to go as high as they needed to for Machado. I hated it at the time but honestly - I’ve been impressed enough with what I’ve seen from NON stopgap pieces to wonder if passing on Machado ends up being better anyway. More importantly, whether Alonso and Nova and the others performed at a decent level or performed badly, the Sox still don’t win this division, they still move on to other pieces in 2020 and 2021, and they still don’t matter. Would it be better if they were better? Sure. Is it somehow extremely damning they aren’t? Nah. I think some people are resorting to utter histrionics when it comes to these things, but in the long run, the money and their performance is absolutely inconsequential to the long term success of the Sox. the most important things RH should be judged on are the performance of the young talent he has acquired during his tenure either by draft or trade (Giolito, Lopez, Cease, Kopech, Anderson, Moncada, Robert, Madrigal, Collins, Vaughn, etc) and the big name free agents he will sign in years that actually matter. And what if he signs no big name free agents in years that actually matter? Because that could be as soon as next year. So if the Sox don’t make any big free agent signings within the next two offseasons or so, will you blame Hahn? Edited June 6, 2019 by Moan4Yoan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Hibbard Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 3 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said: And what if he signs no big name free agents in years that actually matter? Because that could be as soon as next year. So if the Sox don’t make any big free agent signings within the next two offseasons or so, will you blame Hahn? Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Greg Hibbard said: Yes. I already don’t see it happening but I think the blame will ultimately fall on Jerry for not letting Hahn spend the money for a top free agent. Edited June 6, 2019 by Moan4Yoan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchetman Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 what free agents are out there next year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 2 hours ago, Greg Hibbard said: I don’t know, guys. Taking obviously stopgap moves like Alonso and Jay and Herrera and Nova and Santana and even McCann and stating those are some sort or referendum on free agent signings or a waste of millions that could have gone to Machado is incredibly myopic IMO. It’s not like Alonso and Jay were taking money the Sox somehow would have otherwise had for Machado. Don’t fall for the company line. The Sox flat out had money for everyone they want, and made a choice not to go as high as they needed to for Machado. I hated it at the time but honestly - I’ve been impressed enough with what I’ve seen from NON stopgap pieces to wonder if passing on Machado ends up being better anyway. More importantly, whether Alonso and Nova and the others performed at a decent level or performed badly, the Sox still don’t win this division, they still move on to other pieces in 2020 and 2021, and they still don’t matter. Would it be better if they were better? Sure. Is it somehow extremely damning they aren’t? Nah. I think some people are resorting to utter histrionics when it comes to these things, but in the long run, the money and their performance is absolutely inconsequential to the long term success of the Sox. the most important things RH should be judged on are the performance of the young talent he has acquired during his tenure either by draft or trade (Giolito, Lopez, Cease, Kopech, Anderson, Moncada, Robert, Madrigal, Collins, Vaughn, etc) and the big name free agents he will sign in years that actually matter. I agree with some of what you say, there's truth to it. However the fact that Rick seemingly always strikes out of his free agent acqusitions is very concerning to me. His track record going back to Keppinger is bad. Now he's not totally at fault for this, he doesn't work in a vacuum. The Sox Major League talent evaluators are apparently poor at their jobs as well. Given that,it doesn't matter if the Sox weren't going to content this year or not, or if the money was there to be spent anyway. What makes you think say next off season that suddenly better decisions will be made on this type of talent?(assuming the Sox are ready to break out next year) The same folks will be calling the shots right? THAT'S what has to be concerning again given the historical track record. It's just not very good in this area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 2 hours ago, Hatchetman said: what free agents are out there next year? Not as many good ones given all the extensions signed by a lot of top guys heading into this season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 (edited) Does anyone else remember the articles that came out right after both Machado and Harper signed? Didn’t Kenny and/or Hahn basically infer that the Sox would likely be outpriced in the big name free agent market going forward and would have to stick with building from within? I’m pretty sure this was when Kenny made all his stupid comments about the Machado signing and the Sox “better offer” than the Padres’. I looked for the article but couldn’t find it. But I think Rendon, Cole, Ozuna, etc. are all pipe dreams so don’t get your hopes up. Edited June 6, 2019 by Moan4Yoan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepy Harold Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 3 hours ago, Hatchetman said: what free agents are out there next year? Cole, MadBum, Rendon to name a few of the big dogs left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 3 hours ago, Moan4Yoan said: And what if he signs no big name free agents in years that actually matter? Because that could be as soon as next year. So if the Sox don’t make any big free agent signings within the next two offseasons or so, will you blame Hahn? I would blame the guy that won't release the purse strings more. As we discussed in another thread do you really think FO wouldnt want to have those players? They are limited by the current and future payroll budget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 5 minutes ago, ptatc said: I would blame the guy that won't release the purse strings more. As we discussed in another thread do you really think FO wouldnt want to have those players? They are limited by the current and future payroll budget. I said the same thing above. But ultimately, it doesn’t matter. It would be “the Sox” fault. One would have to question their desire to win if they use the excuse that they are limited by their current and future budget after that Forbes article came out earlier this year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 8 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said: Not as many good ones given all the extensions signed by a lot of top guys heading into this season. Players starting to realize that the grass isn't always greener elsewhere. I think Trout set a nice example of signing a "fair" contract rather than selling himself to the highest bidder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 (edited) So now we get to see Jon Jay, the product of a Rick Hahn contrivance....easier to put on a clown show than to do serious GM work. And, indeed, Hahn payed a high price for Colome. Narvaez has a 1.2 WAR (and multiple years of control) v. .3 for Colome. Narvaez is also #7 in pitch framing (McCann is far down on the list). In fact, a couple of other Rick Hahn cast-offs are well ahead of McCann in framing. Edited June 6, 2019 by GreenSox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 (edited) 34 minutes ago, GreenSox said: So now we get to see Jon Jay, the product of a Rick Hahn contrivance....easier to put on a clown show than to do serious GM work. And, indeed, Hahn payed a high price for Colome. Narvaez has a 1.2 WAR (and multiple years of control) v. .3 for Colome. Narvaez is also #7 in pitch framing (McCann is far down on the list). In fact, a couple of other Rick Hahn cast-offs are well ahead of McCann in framing. The Sox have another year of control on Colome but your point remains. It all depends on what the Sox turn Colome into. If we get another Rutherford, the trade was bust city. Edited June 6, 2019 by Moan4Yoan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjm676 Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 15 hours ago, Hatchetman said: what free agents are out there next year? None that the Sox will sign. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 On 6/4/2019 at 11:35 AM, Lip Man 1 said: They didn't "find" Colome, they traded for him. A guy who led the league if I remember correctly in saves a few years ago. Some "find." I certainly give them McCann but as others have posted here the organizations history of free agent signings the past several years has been dismal (at best...) starting with Keppinger and working from there. They traded for Alonso too. If anything be consistent..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, JoshPR said: They traded for Alonso too. If anything be consistent..... Right now I wouldn't be "boasting" about Alonso if I were the White Sox regardless of how they got him would you? Edited June 6, 2019 by Lip Man 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted June 6, 2019 Share Posted June 6, 2019 4 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said: Right now I wouldn't be "boasting" about Alonso if I were the White Sox regardless of how they got him would you? Not the point lip. You refuted another poster that they traded for colome, he wasn't a find. So at least don't call Alonso a find. I do agree with you he's been bad. But you can't be convenient with your arguments. Good day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 4 hours ago, JoshPR said: Not the point lip. You refuted another poster that they traded for colome, he wasn't a find. So at least don't call Alonso a find. I do agree with you he's been bad. But you can't be convenient with your arguments. Good day Agreed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierSox Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 14 hours ago, GreenSox said: So now we get to see Jon Jay, the product of a Rick Hahn contrivance....easier to put on a clown show than to do serious GM work. And, indeed, Hahn payed a high price for Colome. Narvaez has a 1.2 WAR (and multiple years of control) v. .3 for Colome. Narvaez is also #7 in pitch framing (McCann is far down on the list). In fact, a couple of other Rick Hahn cast-offs are well ahead of McCann in framing. I find it funny that framing is used as s stat to judge catchers. If umpires would do their jobs framing wouldn't matter. Bring on the robot umps. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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