Moan4Yoan Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Timmy U said: They got $9 million. Exactly. Hahn freed up $9 million for the Indians and got a nice .576 OPS DH out of it, good for a -1 WAR. He basically paid $9 million to make the team worse. Edited June 30, 2019 by Moan4Yoan 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 6 hours ago, Moan4Yoan said: Exactly. Hahn freed up $9 million for the Indians and got a nice .576 OPS DH out of it, good for a -1 WAR. He basically paid $9 million to make the team worse. And the 9 million helped the Indians how? Being 9 games back of the Twins? The deal was useless for both teams. He was a serviceable player for the Indians last year. There was absolutely no reason to think he was going to be this awful for either team this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, ptatc said: And the 9 million helped the Indians how? Being 9 games back of the Twins? The deal was useless for both teams. He was a serviceable player for the Indians last year. There was absolutely no reason to think he was going to be this awful for either team this year. Except for his second half falloff in 2018...pretty much the same thing that happened with Dunn in 2010 at a similar age (then compounded with the appendicitis early that following year when The NY Times was regularly covering his “shocking” decline.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, ptatc said: And the 9 million helped the Indians how? Being 9 games back of the Twins? The deal was useless for both teams. He was a serviceable player for the Indians last year. There was absolutely no reason to think he was going to be this awful for either team this year. I don’t see how you can say this. Money is money and $9 million is a lot of it. The Indians won the trade. Non contenders make trades all the time. Just because neither team wins the division, you can’t judge who won a trade between them? Ridiculous. And what Caufield said is true, Alonso’s decline started in the second half of last season with the Indians so there were indicators that he would be bad. Also, how serviceable is a 1B/DH with a .738 OPS last year anyways? Definitely not starting DH material which is what Hahn did with him. Hahn got clowned in this deal. It’s okay to admit it and it’s not like it hasn’t happened before in a much worse fashion. Look no further than the Padres two new franchise players. Edited June 30, 2019 by Moan4Yoan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 1 hour ago, Moan4Yoan said: I don’t see how you can say this. Money is money and $9 million is a lot of it. The Indians won the trade. Non contenders make trades all the time. Just because neither team wins the division, you can’t judge who won a trade between them? Ridiculous. And what Caufield said is true, Alonso’s decline started in the second half of last season with the Indians so there were indicators that he would be bad. Also, how serviceable is a 1B/DH with a .738 OPS last year anyways? Definitely not starting DH material which is what Hahn did with him. Hahn got clowned in this deal. It’s okay to admit it and it’s not like it hasn’t happened before in a much worse fashion. Look no further than the Padres two new franchise players. You continue to evaluate the Alonso trade as a baseball move which it never was. From an on-field value perspective we were always going to lose the trade from day 1, so it’s disingenuous to say Hahn got clowned. The issue was not pairing the Yonder trade with a $300M offer for Machado. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: You continue to evaluate the Alonso trade as a baseball move which it never was. From an on-field value perspective we were always going to lose the trade from day 1, so it’s disingenuous to say Hahn got clowned. The issue was not pairing the Yonder trade with a $300M offer for Machado. So it was a bad move because it failed to assist his whale signing. That’s fine. But Hahn’s strategy and idea that Machado would be motivated by playing with family and friends over simply taking the highest guaranteed contract offer was flawed to begin with. Edited June 30, 2019 by Moan4Yoan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: You continue to evaluate the Alonso trade as a baseball move which it never was. From an on-field value perspective we were always going to lose the trade from day 1, so it’s disingenuous to say Hahn got clowned. The issue was not pairing the Yonder trade with a $300M offer for Machado. Well, that’s true anytime you add a platoon DH who’s going to struggle to put up an 800 ops. There’s no real reason without Machado you couldn’t have gone with Palka and Guyer as your platoon or Palka and Davidson and saved that money for international or analytics/evaluation or coaching/instruction. Nova, likewise, is sort of...protecting what, us from having to use Dylan Cease? Not really. With so many injuries and Santana long gone, Covey out, Fulmer close to out of the organization...that money still is pretty much wasted, and that doesn’t even account for the disaster that is Herrera in the pen, and holding onto Nate Jones too long. It’s going to pretty pathetic when the results of Covey/Despaigne/Banuelos/Detwiler are perfectly indistinguishable from Lopez/Santana/Nova. Edited June 30, 2019 by caulfield12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 12 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Well, that’s true anytime you add a platoon DH who’s going to struggle to put up an 800 ops. There’s no real reason without Machado you couldn’t have gone with Palka and Guyer as your platoon or Palka and Davidson and saved that money for international or analytics/evaluation or coaching/instruction. Nova, likewise, is sort of...protecting what, us from having to use Dylan Cease? Not really. With so many injuries and Santana long gone, Covey out, Fulmer close to out of the organization...that money still is pretty much wasted, and that doesn’t even account for the disaster that is Herrera in the pen, and holding onto Nate Jones too long. It’s going to pretty pathetic when the results of Covey/Despaigne/Banuelos/Detwiler are perfectly indistinguishable from Lopez/Santana/Nova. Classic 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said: Classic I should have simply written our pitching situation just sucks, and Hahn has only made it worse...if that was even possible. No details, analysis or critical thinking even required. I’ll rewrite it. Alonso move was dumb. Nova, Herrera and Santana typical “value hunting” that almost always backfires (exception once, McCann). Our minor league pitching depth for an organization just two years ago that was almost universally ranked #1 or #2 is pathetic. Edited June 30, 2019 by caulfield12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsox Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 Hahn reminds me of Richard Nixon in his final months. Jerry needs to put Hahn on his private jet and go into the sunset. Then Hahn can write a book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 (edited) Suggested Titles of the Book How James McCann, the most criticized under-the-radar acquisition in SoxTalk History, Luis Robert and a perfect storm of injuries saved my job (at least temporarily)...or How I became the first MLB GM to use the phrase “unprecedented financial flexibility” 100 times without getting called out for not actually utilizing it. Or How I became the very first GM with a Michigan/Northwestern/Harvard education never to have a winning team. Edited June 30, 2019 by caulfield12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 2 hours ago, Moan4Yoan said: I don’t see how you can say this. Money is money and $9 million is a lot of it. The Indians won the trade. Non contenders make trades all the time. Just because neither team wins the division, you can’t judge who won a trade between them? Ridiculous. And what Caufield said is true, Alonso’s decline started in the second half of last season with the Indians so there were indicators that he would be bad. Also, how serviceable is a 1B/DH with a .738 OPS last year anyways? Definitely not starting DH material which is what Hahn did with him. Hahn got clowned in this deal. It’s okay to admit it and it’s not like it hasn’t happened before in a much worse fashion. Look no further than the Padres two new franchise players. 9 million is not a lot of money in the MLB. Especially to a team like the Sox who were and are rebuilding with a miniscule payroll. They took a shot at helping them acquire Machado and it didn't work. The deal however and hasn't hurt the Sox or the Indians. It may have actually helped the Sox as it gave them a reason to keep Collins in the minors longer. In the end the deal was inconsequential. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 1 hour ago, Moan4Yoan said: So it was a bad move because it failed to assist his whale signing. That’s fine. But Hahn’s strategy and idea that Machado would be motivated by playing with family and friends over simply taking the highest guaranteed contract offer was flawed to begin with. It did fail because they didn't get Machado. However to say the I diana are laughing at the Sox because of it isn't true. The deal has not and will not change anything the Sox are doing going forward. It did not hurt the team one bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, ptatc said: 9 million is not a lot of money in the MLB. Especially to a team like the Sox who were and are rebuilding with a miniscule payroll. They took a shot at helping them acquire Machado and it didn't work. The deal however and hasn't hurt the Sox or the Indians. It may have actually helped the Sox as it gave them a reason to keep Collins in the minors longer. In the end the deal was inconsequential. $25 million a year 9 years from now seemed to be a big deal, The $9 million is still money that could have beeen spent on something else, just like Jays money and Novas money. Eventually it all adds up to a very significant sum. If you buy The company line that every dime that comes in gets spent, these misses take its toll because they cannot spend it on something that would have been worthwhile. Hahn tried to sell it as a solid baseball move. Some actually bought it. There is a whole thread about how he changes the line up, and when the trade was made, more than a couple gushed about how good he was. He has put up better than a 1.1 fWAR once in his life. He has a 5 career fWAR in over 1000 games. He just isn’t very good, and really never has been. Edited June 30, 2019 by Dick Allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 (edited) 30 minutes ago, ptatc said: 9 million is not a lot of money in the MLB. Especially to a team like the Sox who were and are rebuilding with a miniscule payroll. They took a shot at helping them acquire Machado and it didn't work. The deal however and hasn't hurt the Sox or the Indians. It may have actually helped the Sox as it gave them a reason to keep Collins in the minors longer. In the end the deal was inconsequential. $9 million is 10% of the Sox payroll. It may not be a lot of money to other teams but it is far from inconsequential to the Sox. And it is a massive stretch to say the Alonso acquisition had any impact on Collins. They would have just had Palka up instead of calling up Collins if Alonso was never acquired. Palka and Alonso were both bad so there wasn’t much difference between them yet they played Alonso due to his salary. It seems like you are trying so hard to defend a bad trade and won’t back down now so you are making things up. First it was about Alex Call being a worthless prospect, next it is about $9 million dollars not being a lot of money in the MLB, and now it is about how the Alonso acquisition saved Collins’ service time. You are running out of angles. Hahn acquired a bad hitter for $9 million and cut him before the All-Star break. In the grand scheme of things, it wasn’t anywhere near as bad as the Tatis Jr. trade but it was still a failed trade nonetheless. Edited June 30, 2019 by Moan4Yoan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 19 minutes ago, ptatc said: It did fail because they didn't get Machado. However to say the I diana are laughing at the Sox because of it isn't true. The deal has not and will not change anything the Sox are doing going forward. It did not hurt the team one bit. If the Indians make the playoffs, it’s partially because they ditched Alonso and Encarnacion and brought back Carlos Santana...without the help of the White Sox, M’s and Phillies, they would already to be out of the wild card race. Let’s not forget they are only behind Texas in the wild card race, and this Rangers’ team will likely wilt in July/August. They’ve also survived injuries and Jose Ramirez looking like Yolmer...and they can beat up the White Sox, Royals and Tigers down the stretch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 15 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said: $9 million is 10% of the Sox payroll. It may not be a lot to other teams but it is to the Sox. And the move had no impact on Collins. That is a massive stretch to say. They would have just had Palka up instead of calling up Collins if Alonso was never acquired. Palka and Alonso were both bad so there wasn’t much difference and they played Alonso regardless. It seems like you are trying so hard to defend a bad trade and won’t back down now so you are making things up. First it was about Alex Call being a worthless prospect, next it is about $9 million dollars not being a lot of money in the MLB, and now it is about how the Alonso acquisition saved Collins’ service time. You are running out of angles. Who gives a fuck dude? Alonso sucked. He clearly was acquired to try to help with Machado. It didn’t work out. He’s no longer on the roster. It was definitely a bad trade, but it’s not like the Sox have up anything of value, and it will have no negative impact moving forward. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said: Who gives a fuck dude? Alonso sucked. He clearly was acquired to try to help with Machado. It didn’t work out. He’s no longer on the roster. It was definitely a bad trade, but it’s not like the Sox have up anything of value, and it will have no negative impact moving forward. Apparently the same people that don’t give a f that Hahn is in charge and thinks that adding guys like Alonso, Jay, Nova, Herrera, and Santana are good moves. Keep in mind that this is the same guy who gets to sign free agents going forward with all that freed up money the Sox have. Edited June 30, 2019 by Moan4Yoan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said: Who gives a fuck dude? Alonso sucked. He clearly was acquired to try to help with Machado. It didn’t work out. He’s no longer on the roster. It was definitely a bad trade, but it’s not like the Sox have up anything of value, and it will have no negative impact moving forward. Unless you argue that the money spent on Nova, Jay, Santana, Herrera and Alonso (more or less $27.5 million) could have been added into the pot to convince Machado to sign with the Sox. None of those moves created positive value for the Sox...and so just represent money needlessly burned. There are five obviously better ways they could have allocated $25-30 million. And if JR was never going over $250-275 million on Machado or Harper, Hahn completely misread the market...it just took one team to throw a wrench into that plan. Not to mention those two contracts started the avalanche of extensions being signed which cut future free agent classes down by 50% or more in terms of potential targets off the board already. Going back, if they spent that $27.5 million on Latin American pitchers in Robert’s international class, it’s likely this current pitching crisis could have been avoided. The Padres got 4 of their Top 15 prospects (almost all pitching) by doing exactly this... Edited June 30, 2019 by caulfield12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 1 minute ago, Moan4Yoan said: Apparently the same people that don’t give a f that Hahn is in charge and thinks that adding guys like Alonso, Jay, Nova, Herrera, and Santana are good moves. Keep in mind that this is the same guy who gets to sign free agents going forward with all that freed up money the Sox have. Someday you’ll realize that the Sox weren’t trying to compete in 2019, and that all of those moves were clearly filler until more pieces from the farm were ready. Only one of those guys are even under control in 2020!!! But sure, keep repeating the same tired bullshit every single day if it makes you happy. You’ve single handedly decreased the quality of this message board significantly. It sucks because you clearly know baseball and can have intelligent discussion, but you prefer to just repeat the same shit everyday. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said: Someday you’ll realize that the Sox weren’t trying to compete in 2019, and that all of those moves were clearly filler until more pieces from the farm were ready. Only one of those guys are even under control in 2020!!! But sure, keep repeating the same tired bullshit every single day if it makes you happy. You’ve single handedly decreased the quality of this message board significantly. It sucks because you clearly know baseball and can have intelligent discussion, but you prefer to just repeat the same shit everyday. Why did he sign any of those guys then if he wasn’t trying to compete? I’d rather have seen Hahn save the $40+ million dollars he wasted this past offseason for next offseason then. It’s not like they contributed to winning this season. Most were negative WAR. My point that you haven’t addressed is why would you be so excited for Hahn to have a ton of money freed up to sign guys in the future when he has already shown you what guys he likes to sign? Veteran retreads. Edited June 30, 2019 by Moan4Yoan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 1 minute ago, ChiSox59 said: Someday you’ll realize that the Sox weren’t trying to compete in 2019, and that all of those moves were clearly filler until more pieces from the farm were ready. Only one of those guys are even under control in 2020!!! But sure, keep repeating the same tired bullshit every single day if it makes you happy. You’ve single handedly decreased the quality of this message board significantly. It sucks because you clearly know baseball and can have intelligent discussion, but you prefer to just repeat the same shit everyday. It also goes to show how fragile or delicate this whole rebuild was...because at the end of 2017, almost everyone in the media or message boards was predicting 2019 they would be at the very least, competitive, and should be able to make their first run at the Indians. All it took was one significant injury to Kopech. And only one of Giolito/Lopez/Dunning making it as a reliable member of the rotation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Unless you argue that the money spent on Nova, Jay, Santana, Herrera and Alonso (more or less $27.5 million) could have been added into the pot to convince Machado to sign with the Sox. None of those moves created positive value for the Sox...and so just represent money needlessly burned. There are five obviously better ways they could have allocated $25-30 million. And if JR was never going over $250-275 million on Machado or Harper, Hahn completely misread the market...it just took one team to throw a wrench into that plan. Not to mention those two contracts started the avalanche of extensions being signed which cut future free agent classes down by 50% or more in terms of potential targets off the board already. Going back, if they spent that $27.5 million on Latin American pitchers in Robert’s international class, it’s likely this current pitching crisis could have been avoided. The Padres got 4 of their Top 15 prospects (almost all pitching) by doing exactly this... I’m not defending the moves and of course I’d rather have Machado than any of the guys you’ve listed. But we don’t. And the guys you listed are all going to be gone very soon, if they aren’t already. Could Hahn have done a better job filling in holes in the roster with short term pieces? Yes. But I’m also not losing my mind over signing guys like Herrera and Santana and taking on Nova when we clearly needed pitching. Santana was a flop but he cost the organization nothing. No one expected Nova and Herrera to be this bad. Sometimes things don’t work out, and Hahn has had more than his fair share of those. But I’m just not going to lose my mind over short term stop gap players that will all be gone before this team is ready to compete. Edited June 30, 2019 by ChiSox59 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said: Why did he sign any of those guys then if he wasn’t trying to compete? I’d rather have seen Hahn save the $40+ million dollars he wasted this past offseason for next offseason then. It’s not like they contributed to winning this season. Most were negative WAR. Because you need to fill out your roster. He picked up two veteran SP in Nova and Santana and due to all the injuries we still have spent the last couple weeks with only 3 SP on the roster! Every team picks up guys like this every season. You’re legitimately b****ing about something that all 30 teams do. It’s so silly. Hahn’s short term moves from this offseason haven’t worked out well, no doubt. But they haven’t set the organization back at all, so it doesn’t bear repeating every single day. Edited June 30, 2019 by ChiSox59 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said: I’m it defending the moves and of course I’d rather have Machado than any of the guys you’ve listed. But we don’t. And the guys you listed are all going to be gone very soon, if they aren’t already. Could Hahn have done a better job filling in holes in the roster with short term pieces? Yes. But I’m also not losing my mind over signing guys like Herrera and Santana and taking on Nova when we clearly needed pitching. Santana was a flop but he cost the organization nothing. No one expected Nova and Herrera to be this bad. Sometimes things don’t work out, and Hahn has had more than his fair share of those. But I’m just not going to lose my mind over short term stop gap players that will all be gone before this team is ready to compete. If Jimenez, Robert and Moncada each hit their respective peaks or ceilings, they COULD still be okay...but pitching and defense normally win championships unless you have a super-team like Boston, NYY or Houston. That also requires Madrigal, McCann and Anderson to be consistent 3+fWAR contributors and staying healthy, obviously. Or believing we’re going to have a 2004-05 run of perfect roster moves on the pitching front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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