Yonder DFA'd

[ChiSox59]

9 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

If Jimenez, Robert and Moncada each hit their respective peaks or ceilings, they COULD still be okay...but pitching and defense normally win championships unless you have a super-team like Boston, NYY or Houston. 

That also requires Madrigal, McCann and Anderson to be consistent 3+fWAR contributors and staying healthy, obviously.

Or believing we’re going to have a 2004-05 run of perfect roster moves on the pitching front.

The Sox don’t need 6 position players to produce 3+ fWAR to be “okay”. 

The Sox obviously need to add some high end SP, and need Kopech and Cease to be solid Mlb starters next season. There is no doubt about that. 

[Timmy U]

20 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I’m not defending the moves and of course I’d rather have Machado than any of the guys you’ve listed. But we don’t. And the guys you listed are all going to be gone very soon, if they aren’t already. Could Hahn have done a better job filling in holes in the roster with short term pieces? Yes. But I’m also not losing my mind over signing guys like Herrera and Santana and taking on Nova when we clearly needed pitching. Santana was a flop but he cost the organization nothing. No one expected Nova and Herrera to be this bad. Sometimes things don’t work out, and Hahn has had more than his fair share of those. But I’m just not going to lose my mind over short term stop gap players that will all be gone before this team is ready to compete. 

I agree that in two years no one is even going to remember these moves.  I think what is instructive, however, is that under Hahn, the Sox make a lot of dumb moves like the Yonder signing.  When half of this message board could see the implications of giving a division rival $9 mil in salary relief but the front office can't, that's a worrisome sign.  From Shields/Tatis to Holland to Nova and Yonder to how they have drafted, it seems like they are not in the top half of front offices and it looks like both Cleveland and Minnesota are.  If they expect to compete with those two organizations in the next few years, they have to stop making so many blunders.

[ChiSox59]

2 minutes ago, Timmy U said:

I agree that in two years no one is even going to remember these moves.  I think what is instructive, however, is that under Hahn, the Sox make a lot of dumb moves like the Yonder signing.  When half of this message board could see the implications of giving a division rival $9 mil in salary relief but the front office can't, that's a worrisome sign.  From Shields/Tatis to Holland to Nova and Yonder to how they have drafted, it seems like they are not in the top half of front offices and it looks like both Cleveland and Minnesota are.  If they expect to compete with those two organizations in the next few years, they have to stop making so many blunders.

Totally fair, and I completely agree. 

[caulfield12]

33 minutes ago, Timmy U said:

I agree that in two years no one is even going to remember these moves.  I think what is instructive, however, is that under Hahn, the Sox make a lot of dumb moves like the Yonder signing.  When half of this message board could see the implications of giving a division rival $9 mil in salary relief but the front office can't, that's a worrisome sign.  From Shields/Tatis to Holland to Nova and Yonder to how they have drafted, it seems like they are not in the top half of front offices and it looks like both Cleveland and Minnesota are.  If they expect to compete with those two organizations in the next few years, they have to stop making so many blunders.

We would be much better off with Holland than Herrera...another scouting failure.  He’s actually not as old as you’d think, either.

 

Some Hahn spin on Alonso..."His conversations with young players in terms of focus, in terms of work ethic, in terms of fighting through at-bats, in terms of being ready each and every day has been great," White Sox general manager Rick Hahn said. "I'm sure if you ask around to some of the younger guys if Yonder had an impact on them, they'd be giving you firsthand views on that, but I've got zero complaints in terms of the character and the class with which he carried himself and his work ethic."

Edited June 30, 2019 by caulfield12

[ptatc]

2 hours ago, Moan4Yoan said:

$9 million is 10% of the Sox payroll.  It may not be a lot of money to other teams but it is far from inconsequential to the Sox.  And it is a massive stretch to say the Alonso acquisition had any impact on Collins.  They would have just had Palka up instead of calling up Collins if Alonso was never acquired.  Palka and Alonso were both bad so there wasn’t much difference between them yet they played Alonso due to his salary.  It seems like you are trying so hard to defend a bad trade and won’t back down now so you are making things up.  First it was about Alex Call being a worthless prospect, next it is about $9 million dollars not being a lot of money in the MLB, and now it is about how the Alonso acquisition saved Collins’ service time.  You are running out of angles.

Hahn acquired a bad hitter for $9 million and cut him before the All-Star break.  In the grand scheme of things, it wasn’t anywhere near as bad as the Tatis Jr. trade but it was still a failed trade nonetheless.

I've never said it wasn't a failed or bad trade. he acquired him to try to get his brother in law here. it didnt work. however in the big picture if the rebuild, it effects nothing.

[Lip Man 1]

8 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I've never said it wasn't a failed or bad trade. he acquired him to try to get his brother in law here. it didnt work. however in the big picture if the rebuild, it effects nothing.

If the people who continue to make bad decisions (i.e. drafting, scouting, trades, injury prevention) don't change or learn from their mistakes than it does make an impact a huge one in my opinion. Simply because Alonso is not an outlier, it is a continuing pattern over the last several seasons of one major screw up after another.

[Lip Man 1]

6 hours ago, ptatc said:

And the 9 million helped the Indians how? Being 9 games back of the Twins? 

The deal was useless for both teams. He was a serviceable player for the Indians last year. There was absolutely no reason to think he was going to be this awful for either team this year.

It helped because they didn't have to trade one of their better starting pitchers because of salary concerns. That may turn out to be a big deal in future seasons, let's not forget that aspect of things.

[oldsox]

Point:  Lip Man.

[caulfield12]

Yep, unless you can argue that subtracting Bauer, Kluber and/or Carrasco still gets you to this same place in the standings...especially considering how much time Clevinger was out.

[Dick Allen]

3 hours ago, Moan4Yoan said:

Why did he sign any of those guys then if he wasn’t trying to compete?  I’d rather have seen Hahn save the $40+ million dollars he wasted this past offseason for next offseason then.  It’s not like they contributed to winning this season.  Most were negative WAR.  My point that you haven’t addressed is why would you be so excited for Hahn to have a ton of money freed up to sign guys in the future when he has already shown you what guys he likes to sign?  Veteran retreads.

This is exactly how I feel. It is not like the money had to be spent this past year, and from those who say it does, then what are you clinging to thinking the White Slx will have massive payrolls down the road? They have been banking money to use down the road, and it's already a shit show.

[Moan4Yoan]

2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

This is exactly how I feel. It is not like the money had to be spent this past year, and from those who say it does, then what are you clinging to thinking the White Slx will have massive payrolls down the road? They have been banking money to use down the road, and it's already a shit show.

Exactly, and all the posters who prematurely claimed that not signing Machado ended up being a win for the Sox, he is now sporting an .866 OPS with 19 HR and 54 RBI.  Oops.

[GreenSox]

5 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

Sometimes things don’t work out, and Hahn has had more than his fair share of those. But I’m just not going to lose my mind over short term stop gap players that will all be gone before this team is ready to compete. 

And that's the problem.  Things consistently don't work out with Hahn's veterans.   It didn't really matter this year, I suppose (although having Cron and Jordan Lyles instead of Alonso and Santana certainly could have the Sox in a more interesting position). 

If this rebuild succeeds, there will be a time in the near future (1 or 2 years) where the Sox will need 3 or 4 veterans in key spots to round out the roster.  I just don't believe that at that time Hahn will suddenly turn it on and make serious baseball moves after years of silliness.

Edited June 30, 2019 by GreenSox

[michelangelosmonkey]

35 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

And that's the problem.  Things consistently don't work out with Hahn's veterans.   It didn't really matter this year, I suppose (although having Cron and Jordan Lyles instead of Alonso and Santana certainly could have the Sox in a more interesting position). 

If this rebuild succeeds, there will be a time in the near future (1 or 2 years) where the Sox will need 3 or 4 veterans in key spots to round out the roster.  I just don't believe that at that time Hahn will suddenly turn it on and make serious baseball moves after years of silliness.

Did I miss something?  Isn't McCann the MVP of this years team?  Doesn't Colome have 17 saves and a 0.69 WHIP?  Are they both not going to be on the All Star team this year?  If in next years off season we add two more All Stars and a couple of duds I'd be ok with that.   

[BackDoorBreach]

2 hours ago, Moan4Yoan said:

Exactly, and all the posters who prematurely claimed that not signing Machado ended up being a win for the Sox, he is now sporting an .866 OPS with 19 HR and 54 RBI.  Oops.

I still don't get the thought process.  If you sign Machado you have a 5+ WAR 3B and a close to 5 WAR 2B in Moncada, where he is actually more valuable.

 

Instead you have Yo who is great just not as powerful at 3B, and negative WAR at 2B between Yolmer and Rondon.  And we don't have any salary, signing Machado would not limit us from signing another FA SP.

[Lip Man 1]

3 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Did I miss something?  Isn't McCann the MVP of this years team?  Doesn't Colome have 17 saves and a 0.69 WHIP?  Are they both not going to be on the All Star team this year?  If in next years off season we add two more All Stars and a couple of duds I'd be ok with that.   

Well Colome is not.

But let's add things up shall we. Just this year to make it more reasonable (Keppinger, Dunn, LaRoche and all the other stiffs need not apply)

Success stories: McCann, Colome.

Failures: Alonso, Jay (missed half the year), Santana, Nova, Herrera.

It's pretty hard to win or consistently win (unless you can buy your way out of mistakes like the Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs and Dodgers) hitting on two out of seven.

Now this has been going on over multiple seasons.

That says something no? And I don't put the blame squarely on Hahn, he doesn't work in a vacuum. The Sox pro scouting department who helps recommend these trades and free agent signings appear to be just as bad.   

[greg775]

7 hours ago, Moan4Yoan said:

Exactly, and all the posters who prematurely claimed that not signing Machado ended up being a win for the Sox, he is now sporting an .866 OPS with 19 HR and 54 RBI.  Oops.

He certainly got red hot. He's gonna have a monster year if he stays healthy. Good luck to Manny.

[Moan4Yoan]

5 minutes ago, greg775 said:

He certainly got red hot. He's gonna have a monster year if he stays healthy. Good luck to Manny.

He just hit his 20th HR today.

[GreenSox]

5 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Did I miss something?  Isn't McCann the MVP of this years team?  Doesn't Colome have 17 saves and a 0.69 WHIP?  Are they both not going to be on the All Star team this year?  If in next years off season we add two more All Stars and a couple of duds I'd be ok with that.   

McCann, yes.  Colome is excellent but they traded  4 years of so far a 1.4 WAR catcher for 2 years of Colome's .3 WAR (and I concede that Colome is a lot better and certainly more valuable to this team than his WAR suggests).  But then there are Nova, Alonso, Santana, 2 of whom have already been DFAd and a third who would have been had the Sox any kind of staff..  Over the years it's probably  4 bad for 1 good (2016 alone had probably 9 bad for 0 good).  And a lot of these moves just are just no effort like the Nova and Shields trades...some team peddles a washed up veteran for a seemingly reasonable not too high price and Hahn bites.  

Edited July 1, 2019 by GreenSox

[michelangelosmonkey]

1 hour ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Well Colome is not.

But let's add things up shall we. Just this year to make it more reasonable (Keppinger, Dunn, LaRoche and all the other stiffs need not apply)

Success stories: McCann, Colome.

Failures: Alonso, Jay (missed half the year), Santana, Nova, Herrera.

It's pretty hard to win or consistently win (unless you can buy your way out of mistakes like the Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs and Dodgers) hitting on two out of seven.

Now this has been going on over multiple seasons.

That says something no? And I don't put the blame squarely on Hahn, he doesn't work in a vacuum. The Sox pro scouting department who helps recommend these trades and free agent signings appear to be just as bad.   

The argument was that Hahn is terrible in evaluating major league talent.  If you are being fair you exclude Alonso and Jay because they were CLEARLY signed to try to get Machado...and while it didn't work it was a creative way of trying to win the auction.    Santana was a broken piece they found in the dump and got rid of after a few starts.  I will give you that Nova and Herrera have been bad but you have to concede that McCann and Colome have been great.  It just seems to me the wrong year to be angry at Hahn for inability to find major league players.  There is a legitimate concern pre-rebuild about him trying to surround Eaton/Sale/Quintana with talent to win and failing.  But it's hard not to like what he's done since the rebuild started.  

 

[michelangelosmonkey]

5 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

McCann, yes.  Colome is excellent but they traded  4 years of so far a 1.4 WAR catcher for 2 years of Colome's .3 WAR (and I concede that Colome is a lot better and certainly more valuable to this team than his WAR suggests).  But then there are Nova, Alonso, Santana, 2 of whom have already been DFAd and a third who would have been had the Sox any kind of staff..  Over the years it's probably  4 bad for 1 good (2016 alone had probably 9 bad for 0 good).  And a lot of these moves just are just no effort like the Nova and Shields trades...some team peddles a washed up veteran for a seemingly reasonable not too high price and Hahn bites.  

It was not unreasonable for the Sox in the 2013-2016 period (Hahn's first years as GM) to try to patch together a champion.  They got lucky when the generational talent of Sale suddenly appeared.  They got equally lucky when Quintana fell off the trash pile into their laps.  They should have been rebuilding in that period but instead they tried to catch lightening in a bottle (like 2005).  If you could just reach the playoffs with Sale/Quintana they could have had a Johnson/Schilling Diamondbacks run.   They threw a lot of money at aging stars like Dunn and Todd Frazier and Melky but the organization was too weak to get over the hump.   After the hot start in 2016 trying to get a veteran former ace pitcher at mid season for a failed prospect and a lottery ticket was not stupid.  Sometimes the 34 year old seemingly washed up ex-ace pitcher goes 9-1 the rest of the way like Verlander did last year and sometimes they go 4-12 like Shields did.  And most of the time the lottery ticket is single A roster filler...but sometimes it becomes Tatis.  Hahn had bad luck trying to build from a weak foundation but was smart enough at the end of 16 to realize it and blow it all up.  Hahn needs to, and will be, judged by this rebuild.   His off season acquisition this year have been really good considering it wasn't really the time to hit the accelerator.  His big test is this coming off season...where he should have a pile of money and a budding roster of stars.   We'll see but I haven't been this excited about a core Sox team since the Thomas/Venture/McDowell days.     

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

6 hours ago, GreenSox said:

And that's the problem.  Things consistently don't work out with Hahn's veterans.   It didn't really matter this year, I suppose (although having Cron and Jordan Lyles instead of Alonso and Santana certainly could have the Sox in a more interesting position). 

If this rebuild succeeds, there will be a time in the near future (1 or 2 years) where the Sox will need 3 or 4 veterans in key spots to round out the roster.  I just don't believe that at that time Hahn will suddenly turn it on and make serious baseball moves after years of silliness.

Or even Mike Fiers who I was pushing for when he was non tendered.

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

The argument was that Hahn is terrible in evaluating major league talent.  If you are being fair you exclude Alonso and Jay because they were CLEARLY signed to try to get Machado...and while it didn't work it was a creative way of trying to win the auction.    Santana was a broken piece they found in the dump and got rid of after a few starts.  I will give you that Nova and Herrera have been bad but you have to concede that McCann and Colome have been great.  It just seems to me the wrong year to be angry at Hahn for inability to find major league players.  There is a legitimate concern pre-rebuild about him trying to surround Eaton/Sale/Quintana with talent to win and failing.  But it's hard not to like what he's done since the rebuild started.  

 

The fact that hoping to entice Machado by acquiring a declining Alonso and a 34 year old (I think he's 34) Jay is indictment enough about Rick and the organization. They were acquired this off season, they combined have been paid (or will be paid) 12 million. One missed half the season with a mysterious groin/hip injury that seemed to appear out of thin air...one has already been released. You can't exclude them or set conditions and claim it doesn't count in the grand scheme of things. And again Hahn signed off on getting Santana out of the dump. 

Bottom line as other have stated I was being kind by just factoring in this season, it's bad...there's no way around it...zero. Period. And then if you want to factor in the last several seasons and all of the acquired people who posted a negative WAR rating with the Sox it may be as bad as anybody in baseball. 

I respectfully disagree with your analysis.

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Hahn had bad luck trying to build from a weak foundation. 

"Luck is the residue of design"-Hall of Fame baseball executive Branch Rickey.

Hahn is part of the reason for the bad "luck."

The guy is excellent from a contract / financial standpoint regarding players. From a purely baseball standpoint, the record speaks for itself. 

Edited July 1, 2019 by Lip Man 1

[Timmy U]

1 hour ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Sometimes the 34 year old seemingly washed up ex-ace pitcher goes 9-1 the rest of the way like Verlander did last year and sometimes they go 4-12 like Shields did.  And most of the time the lottery ticket is single A roster filler...but sometimes it becomes Tatis.  

This implies that scouting is meaningless.  According to Keith Law at the time of the trade, scouts from other orgs thought Tatis was good enough to go 1-1 in the following draft.  Verlander was throwing way better than Shields at the time each was traded.  It's not luck.  The White Sox were dumb at the time of the trade, a lot of people said so.  I thought it was a disaster at the rumor stage.  My brother almost quit being a fan because of it at the time.  This is not 20-20 hindsight.

[michelangelosmonkey]

6 hours ago, Timmy U said:

This implies that scouting is meaningless.  According to Keith Law at the time of the trade, scouts from other orgs thought Tatis was good enough to go 1-1 in the following draft.  Verlander was throwing way better than Shields at the time each was traded.  It's not luck.  The White Sox were dumb at the time of the trade, a lot of people said so.  I thought it was a disaster at the rumor stage.  My brother almost quit being a fan because of it at the time.  This is not 20-20 hindsight.

This is 100% hindsight.  Cubs traded for Cole Hamels who was 34,  1-3 with a 10.23 ERA in the five starts before the trade and overall with a 5.2 FIP for the Rangers...which is a near exact comparison to Shields....and he was owed about the same amount of money and the Cubs traded three prospects for him.   He  has put up a 6 WAR in the 30 starts after the trade.   You can say the Cubs are geniuses and the Sox are idiots but I think it is luck...it happens frequently a fading star pitcher comes back to life when traded to a contender...and it happens frequently that they just continue to be bad.  But AT THE TIME...it was worth the gamble...if instead of putting up a -1.8 WAR the rest of the way Shields puts up a 3...then suddenly the Sox are in the Wild card chase...Sale and Quintana were both 5+ WAR pitchers that year, Rodon went 7-3 in the second half and that year you had a bullpen of David Robertson, Nate Jones and Dan Jennings who combined also had a 5 WAR.  All you needed to do was make the wild card and you could have had a pitching WS run like 2005.  It DIDN'T WORK.  I am sad too...but it wasn't a systemic failure.    As for the Tatis legend...Fangraphs was as high as anyone on him.  Here are there post trade grades they had on him:

Hit: 20/50, Raw Power: 40/50, Game Power: 20/50, Run: 50/45, Field: 40/45, Throw: 60/60, FV: 40

So his future value was a bench player who derives most of his value from speed and a big arm. Yawn.