2019-2020 Official NBA Thread

[Chisoxfn]

29 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

My dad loved the hotel room story.

That was real good too.  

[bmags]

1 minute ago, Chisoxfn said:

To be honest...I just wish he never did that Wizards return. That said, while he wasn't the same player with the Wizards...it was 3 years later. You never know what him continuing to play would have meant. He was still best player in the league at that time...but I don't know that they could have gotten pass the Lakers (Kobe / Shaq).  I honestly think Michael hung them up at the perfect time and in some ways, Krause was trying to be like Belicheck, which was, call it quits a year or two short but maintain longer success vs. totally bottom out.  That said, 6 championships is just special, but you never know what could have happened had Krause and Phil just worked together and they could have landed McGrady plus the other top pick (Pippen for Celtics 3 & 7 (or whatever pick it was)) and than pivoted the team under an aging, but still very dominant Jordan.  

Like I said...I dont' think they win another championship...but I do think they don't bottom out and maybe they would have won another championship.  Hard to say cause you never know what happens.  Like I said...I'll take the 6.

Would it have been better if they brought everyone back again and than lost to Spurs/Lakers? Or is it better that the team NEVER lost in the Championships.  

I do think the bulls with a less antagonistic  FO could have gotten it done for a rebuild after 97 with jordan.

That said, Sam Smith was on Howard Beck's pod yesterday and he was throwing some ice water on the idea that it was just krauses fault. His recall was more how I remember the time (perhaps because I was reading Smith at the time), but he was adamant that phil and mj were just done at the time. 

I remember that common sentiment too, mainly around that hard fought pacers series in 98. A lot of the contemperary reporters thought MJ was exhausted/done after that, and when you are at that level of fatigue, it does sound hard to then say "hey deal with a rebuild for us".

But you also see the huge benefit the lakers get to letting kobe get the exit he wanted despite the results. Clearly the antagonistic ending killed the bulls reputation.

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, bmags said:

I do think the bulls with a less antagonistic  FO could have gotten it done for a rebuild after 97 with jordan.

That said, Sam Smith was on Howard Beck's pod yesterday and he was throwing some ice water on the idea that it was just krauses fault. His recall was more how I remember the time (perhaps because I was reading Smith at the time), but he was adamant that phil and mj were just done at the time. 

I remember that common sentiment too, mainly around that hard fought pacers series in 98. A lot of the contemperary reporters thought MJ was exhausted/done after that, and when you are at that level of fatigue, it does sound hard to then say "hey deal with a rebuild for us".

But you also see the huge benefit the lakers get to letting kobe get the exit he wanted despite the results. Clearly the antagonistic ending killed the bulls reputation.

Saying "Phil and MJ were done" though misses the fact that Krause played a big role in them being done, and the fact that the GM was making the off the court stuff so difficult was a major factor weighing on them over a period of years. It's like saying "I'm exhausted from my job over the last month and want to retire" without noting that there's a few slight difficulties making the situation more difficult over that time period. 

[bmags]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

Saying "Phil and MJ were done" though misses the fact that Krause played a big role in them being done, and the fact that the GM was making the off the court stuff so difficult was a major factor weighing on them over a period of years. It's like saying "I'm exhausted from my job over the last month and want to retire" without noting that there's a few slight difficulties making the situation more difficult over that time period. 

I mean it was an hour long podcast, but I'm responding to the documentary's much more provocative thesis that krause pushed jordan and jackson out because he wanted to rebuild. But smith was criticizing the idea that removing krause and hiring jackson would have worked. 

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, bmags said:

I mean it was an hour long podcast, but I'm responding to the documentary's much more provocative thesis that krause pushed jordan and jackson out because he wanted to rebuild. But smith was criticizing the idea that removing krause and hiring jackson would have worked. 

I don't think that would have done it either, but that's also at least in part because both Jordan and Jackson, as well as everyone else, was tired of Krause. Because Krause created that situation of fighting for glory, where behind the scenes things were crashing down with management on one side standing against everyone else, those guys were extra tired. Removing Krause at that point would be spraying water onto the house that has already burned down - the damage was done during the previous years.

Consider the alternative of Krause not worrying about his legacy, and being the one to try to proactively create supportive environments behind the scenes. Probably a good chance he's still feuding with Pippen over the contract, because they weren't going to tear that up. Rodman would still be creating his issues, but if you've got an amicable relationship that isn't adding stress, and they approach Phil with a multi-year deal that makes him the highest paid coach in the league, does he take it? I'll get you to at least maybe. Dude came back to coach twice more so clearly he wasn't done coaching, he was done with the Bulls situation. 

[almagest]

1 hour ago, Chisoxfn said:

To be honest...I just wish he never did that Wizards return. That said, while he wasn't the same player with the Wizards...it was 3 years later. You never know what him continuing to play would have meant. He was still best player in the league at that time...but I don't know that they could have gotten pass the Lakers (Kobe / Shaq).  I honestly think Michael hung them up at the perfect time and in some ways, Krause was trying to be like Belicheck, which was, call it quits a year or two short but maintain longer success vs. totally bottom out.  That said, 6 championships is just special, but you never know what could have happened had Krause and Phil just worked together and they could have landed McGrady plus the other top pick (Pippen for Celtics 3 & 7 (or whatever pick it was)) and than pivoted the team under an aging, but still very dominant Jordan.  

Like I said...I dont' think they win another championship...but I do think they don't bottom out and maybe they would have won another championship.  Hard to say cause you never know what happens.  Like I said...I'll take the 6.

Would it have been better if they brought everyone back again and than lost to Spurs/Lakers? Or is it better that the team NEVER lost in the Championships.  

I'm just thinking of how much better the Bulls reputation would be if you could say "you can come here and play with + learn from Michael Jordan" to prospective free agents.

[bmags]

12 minutes ago, Tony said:

Also consider the "source" on all of this. The doc is produced and signed off on by Jordan and his team. Obviously Jordan isn't going to portray himself as ever being "exhausted" or "done" because that isn't his brand, but I also agree with Balta's point in a lot of the "exhaustion" came from the drama that surrounded that team every day, the uncertainty that came around a team that was always winning titles, ect. I'm sure both are partly true, but I tend to believe that Jordan was being truthful in his statement of "Let us lose first before you break this thing up. Don't break up a winner." 

That's true, but that was also in 97 when he said that, and then they came back on 1 year deals. Smith said reinsdorf offered that jordan could do that every year if he wanted with everyone getting raises. (Rodman likely would have come back, pippen not so much).

I think a modern FO that enabled jordan/phil could have spurred a lasting rebuild/pass the torch moment. But it's also probably true that for the longest michael window, trading pippen after 97 was likely the best move. They would have ended up with mcgrady.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

29 minutes ago, Tony said:

Also consider the "source" on all of this. The doc is produced and signed off on by Jordan and his team. Obviously Jordan isn't going to portray himself as ever being "exhausted" or "done" because that isn't his brand, but I also agree with Balta's point in a lot of the "exhaustion" came from the drama that surrounded that team every day, the uncertainty that came around a team that was always winning titles, ect. I'm sure both are partly true, but I tend to believe that Jordan was being truthful in his statement of "Let us lose first before you break this thing up. Don't break up a winner." 

Let's also not forget who are we are talking about here.  Michael Jordan thrived off of anger.  He lived to have enemies.  He took whatever slight he could find to make himself angry and focused.  If it wasn't Jerry Krause, it would have been someone else.  Maybe it is Phil?  Maybe it is the next GM to come along.  I love Michael and all, but the dude is a Type A asshole.  He just figured out a way to channel his fury into his game, unlike 99.9% of other people who let it consume them.

[bmags]

So hopefully a "jump the gun" report and not just outright false. But @Y2Jimmy0 had a tweet retweeting a report that bulls were closing in on Austin Brown for GM.

Admittedly, had never heard of him because a lot of this GM stuff you need to be super inside basketball on. But he's a co-head of CAA, one of the biggest agencies in basketball. Arturas clearly sees himself as the one that will set-up the drafting / ops stuff, and it appears he's looking at a GM for pro personnel and relationships. This would be a super interesting hire on that front.

Very exciting.

[Chisoxfn]

7 minutes ago, bmags said:

So hopefully a "jump the gun" report and not just outright false. But @Y2Jimmy0 had a tweet retweeting a report that bulls were closing in on Austin Brown for GM.

Admittedly, had never heard of him because a lot of this GM stuff you need to be super inside basketball on. But he's a co-head of CAA, one of the biggest agencies in basketball. Arturas clearly sees himself as the one that will set-up the drafting / ops stuff, and it appears he's looking at a GM for pro personnel and relationships. This would be a super interesting hire on that front.

Very exciting.

Wow - That would be an out of left field hire, but one I could get on board with.  

[bmags]

1 minute ago, Chisoxfn said:

Wow - That would be an out of left field hire, but one I could get on board with.  

Forgot to mention it was deleted, Cowley did say he heard he was in mix but that they were still interviewing

[Jack Parkman]

Watching the Last Dance won't help the Bulls with player relations, that's for sure. It's time to accept that until they get new ownership, the Bulls might as well be the Minnesota Timberwolves. The odds of them attracting a top free agent are negative. 

[Chisoxfn]

15 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Watching the Last Dance won't help the Bulls with player relations, that's for sure. It's time to accept that until they get new ownership, the Bulls might as well be the Minnesota Timberwolves. The odds of them attracting a top free agent are negative. 

They do have an entirely different front office.  Reinsdorf is at this point the one person still there (from a continuity perspective) but you are right...there has always been the perception of what the Bulls ownership & front office did to the GOAT. I just have to hope somewhere there is some bow that talks about how Jordan and JR are pretty tight nowadays.  

[Jack Parkman]

58 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

They do have an entirely different front office.  Reinsdorf is at this point the one person still there (from a continuity perspective) but you are right...there has always been the perception of what the Bulls ownership & front office did to the GOAT. I just have to hope somewhere there is some bow that talks about how Jordan and JR are pretty tight nowadays.  

Not just MJ, but Pippen too. Reinsdorf fucked his franchise for eternity because he didn't choose to re-negotiate those deals. That being said, if MJ and Pippen are getting paid more, they probably don't have enough around them to win the final 3 championships. 

[southsider2k5]

24 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Not just MJ, but Pippen too. Reinsdorf fucked his franchise for eternity because he didn't choose to re-negotiate those deals. That being said, if MJ and Pippen are getting paid more, they probably don't have enough around them to win the final 3 championships. 

Honestly, that isn't really true.  Hiring a crappy front office handicapped the team, not renegotiating deals decades ago.  The White Sox did the same to Frank Thomas, and it hasn't stopped them from signing guys when they were actually the highest bidder.  Garpax was the problem, not Scottie Pippen going contra to his financial advice and signing a bad contract.

[Balta1701]

24 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Honestly, that isn't really true.  Hiring a crappy front office handicapped the team, not renegotiating deals decades ago.  The White Sox did the same to Frank Thomas, and it hasn't stopped them from signing guys when they were actually the highest bidder.  Garpax was the problem, not Scottie Pippen going contra to his financial advice and signing a bad contract.

Nobody thought the Nets were a destination even after they moved to Brooklyn, but then they brought in a good staff, got themselves into the playoffs and looking up, and suddenly they had 2 free agents breaking the tampering rules to sign there. The Clippers looked like they would be in a rebuilding period after trading Paul and Griffin, but quality front office work made them a destination that beat out competitors including the Lakers for Leonard. The non-Lakers teams that made the big moves last offseason did so because of ok markets where they are the #2 team most of the time, but quality front office management. 

[southsider2k5]

40 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Nobody thought the Nets were a destination even after they moved to Brooklyn, but then they brought in a good staff, got themselves into the playoffs and looking up, and suddenly they had 2 free agents breaking the tampering rules to sign there. The Clippers looked like they would be in a rebuilding period after trading Paul and Griffin, but quality front office work made them a destination that beat out competitors including the Lakers for Leonard. The non-Lakers teams that made the big moves last offseason did so because of ok markets where they are the #2 team most of the time, but quality front office management. 

Heck the Clippers are under a decade out of having an owner that was racist AF, and it hasn't stopped them.

[Jack Parkman]

2 hours ago, Tony said:

 

No, it's not "for sure" 

As others have mentioned, bring in a Front Office that has respect around the league and is building something....and ESPN Doc profiling a franchise from 20 years ago isn't going to stop them from attracting a top free agent. Other things might......but it won't be because of a documentary. 

 

What I meant is that it's certainly doing them no favors. 

Hopefully this new guy can tell the Reinsdorfs what they need to do to attract top free agents. 

Honestly, it might be hard to make nice with MJ now that he owns the Hornets, but they need to do something. 

Also.....Idk how much it costs or what JR's net worth is, but they need to bend over backwards to make their players feel taken care of. Maybe you have to give your players perks that someone like Cuban or the Russian oil baron who owns the nets does. Just do whatever you can to change the narrative. 

Edited April 23, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[Jack Parkman]

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

Heck the Clippers are under a decade out of having an owner that was racist AF, and it hasn't stopped them.

That's an ownership change. The Clippers became a destination the moment Sterling had to sell.

[Chisoxfn]

3 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

What I meant is that it's certainly doing them no favors. 

Hopefully this new guy can tell the Reinsdorfs what they need to do to attract top free agents. 

Honestly, it might be hard to make nice with MJ now that he owns the Hornets, but they need to do something. 

Also.....Idk how much it costs or what JR's net worth is, but they need to bend over backwards to make their players feel taken care of. Maybe you have to give your players perks that someone like Cuban or the Russian oil baron who owns the nets does. Just do whatever you can to change the narrative. 

MJ and Reinsdorf get along.  IN case you didn't know it, JR took Michael under his wing and they speak a lot about owning franchise, etc.  

[Jack Parkman]

Just now, Chisoxfn said:

MJ and Reinsdorf get along.  IN case you didn't know it, JR took Michael under his wing and they speak a lot about owning franchise, etc.  

I had no idea. I've been pretty disgusted with the Bulls since about 2015 or so. Started ignoring the NBA for the first time in my life. Basketball went from my favorite sport to a non-factor in my entertainment choices in a decade. 

[SoxAce]

 

[bmags]

2 hours ago, SoxAce said:

 

I was more excited by Austin Brown but if the rumored guys I liked his resume most. Like that he succeeded at multiple organizations.

Excited for new era of Bulls.  Now to the new coach!

[Quin]

2 hours ago, SoxAce said:

 

Due to player relations, I feel like Eversley was one of the top candidates. He and AK should balance one another well.

[southsider2k5]

5 hours ago, SoxAce said:

 

So who is he, and what is his background?