Heads22 Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 That's some magical stuff you just made happen there, Q 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thxfrthmmrs Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 6 hours ago, Chi Town Sox said: At this point, we need to hope the Bulls go the way of the Nets. Create a winning culture building from ground up (GarPax is bad but they've done it before) and then space is created when Porter's contract is done. The Bulls have plenty of talent, they need to show they could make some noise the next two years, the 2021 class could also be very solid. Except the Nets were ran pretty badly. They lucked into KD and Kyrie because they wanted to play together and Kyrie prefers the city of NY. They have also made some pretty bad trades and traded away a bunch of draft picks not too long ago. Their core of Allen/Lavert/Harris/Dwinddle pales in comparison to Bulls young core. KD and Kyrie didn't pick Brooklyn because they made playoffs once in the last 4 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 5 minutes ago, thxfrthmmrs said: Except the Nets were ran pretty badly. They lucked into KD and Kyrie because they wanted to play together and Kyrie prefers the city of NY. They have also made some pretty bad trades and traded away a bunch of draft picks not too long ago. Their core of Allen/Lavert/Harris/Dwinddle pales in comparison to Bulls young core. KD and Kyrie didn't pick Brooklyn because they made playoffs once in the last 4 years. The new management of the nets took over in 2016 and with no draft capital and an old roster focused on player development and paper clip trades to put together a playoff roster that played competitively vs the sixers last year. They didn’t luck into anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thxfrthmmrs Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 5 minutes ago, bmags said: The new management of the nets took over in 2016 and with no draft capital and an old roster focused on player development and paper clip trades to put together a playoff roster that played competitively vs the sixers last year. They didn’t luck into anything. They have developed a few good rotational players under new management, but the guy who led them to the playoffs last year now plays for another team. I wouldn't say winning culture is what attracted Kyrie and KD to them. Had Lakers not traded for AD, I think you'd have a chance of seeing these two playing for the other LA team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 Just now, thxfrthmmrs said: They have developed a few good rotational players under new management, but the guy who led them to the playoffs last year now plays for another team. I wouldn't say winning culture is what attracted Kyrie and KD to them. Had Lakers not traded for AD, I think you'd have a chance of seeing these two playing for the other LA team. And they would have re-signed Russell, and had two young emerging players in Lavert and Russell with a deep team and still plenty of space. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 I think it's reasonable to say that the lack of draft picks kind of "forced" the new management of the Nets to try to win and in the process, probably put KD and Kyrie at ease that the team wasn't a complete shitshow like the Knicks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thxfrthmmrs Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 3 minutes ago, bmags said: And they would have re-signed Russell, and had two young emerging players in Lavert and Russell with a deep team and still plenty of space. Considering KD and Kyrie was a package deal, IDK who else would have been realistic for them. I don't think the winning culture was the reason they were chosen. They have a pretty decent young cast sans DLO, but it wouldn't have been better than the Bulls cast, who for the record would have room for 2 Max if they didn't trade for OPJ and have gotten rid of Felicio's contract. Maybe the new management has done a better job than I initially gave them credit for, but the aura that is playing in NY and not for a franchise named the Knicks and also being in a wide open East has a lot to do with it too. Otherwise, the Clippers, who made playoffs with the core that could have stayed intact even with 2 max contracts would have been the obvious choice in the winning culture narrative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 12 minutes ago, Jake said: I think it's reasonable to say that the lack of draft picks kind of "forced" the new management of the Nets to try to win and in the process, probably put KD and Kyrie at ease that the team wasn't a complete shitshow like the Knicks. Okay, but they did a great job of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 Just now, bmags said: Okay, but they did a great job of it. I was agreeing with you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 3 hours ago, bmags said: The new management of the nets took over in 2016 and with no draft capital and an old roster focused on player development and paper clip trades to put together a playoff roster that played competitively vs the sixers last year. They didn’t luck into anything. What would you call Kyrie being interested because of the whole JROC or whatever the group is called? I think they got to where they currently were by making solid moves, but I don't know that they did anything to demand getting KD & Kyrie. By the way, I'm going on record as saying I don't think they are as good as people give them credit for, at all (even with these moves). I don't necessarily think the teams with the best off-season in sports, necessarily have the best front offices, etc. In the Nets case though, I give them much more credit than say the Lakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 3 hours ago, thxfrthmmrs said: They have developed a few good rotational players under new management, but the guy who led them to the playoffs last year now plays for another team. I wouldn't say winning culture is what attracted Kyrie and KD to them. Had Lakers not traded for AD, I think you'd have a chance of seeing these two playing for the other LA team. I agree in the Kyrie/KD situation as well as the AD situation, it was less about the front office and more about where they wanted to play or other affiliations, which drove those moves. That said, Nets front office is far more competent than Lakers. Lakers were the true team that made out like a bandit as I actually think LBJ is a Clipper if he was a FA this year (vs. Lakers), but at the time, he wanted to come to LA and Hollywood and Lakers lore was the thing that got him there (nothing that the front office did got him there) and because of him and him alone, AD is there and Kwahi will be there soon). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 3 hours ago, bmags said: And they would have re-signed Russell, and had two young emerging players in Lavert and Russell with a deep team and still plenty of space. That team isn't much different than what the Bulls are trying to do and I'd argue Bulls roster would have had more longer-term upside than the Nets roster (without Kryie & KD). This year will tell a lot more though so I could be delusional in my views of Lavine & Laurie, plus WCJ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 3 hours ago, thxfrthmmrs said: Considering KD and Kyrie was a package deal, IDK who else would have been realistic for them. I don't think the winning culture was the reason they were chosen. They have a pretty decent young cast sans DLO, but it wouldn't have been better than the Bulls cast, who for the record would have room for 2 Max if they didn't trade for OPJ and have gotten rid of Felicio's contract. Maybe the new management has done a better job than I initially gave them credit for, but the aura that is playing in NY and not for a franchise named the Knicks and also being in a wide open East has a lot to do with it too. Otherwise, the Clippers, who made playoffs with the core that could have stayed intact even with 2 max contracts would have been the obvious choice in the winning culture narrative. This post times 100. The worst part about the Bulls is they ended up being a year away from being able to be ready for the 2019 plan. The reality was the team was just way too young this year (and combined with injuries) to really contend. Bmags could be on to something that maybe they would have looked different if they added more vets last off-season (vs. signing it all on Parker). Not sure it matters, I just think the reality is 2 years to turn a team around from scratch is tight (which is really all the Bulls had). If they started off strong and overachieved, I don't think they trade for Porter, heck, I think they are looking at AD and are probably pushing 2 max slots and would have been a talked about destination. Reality is that didn't happen and I give the FO credit for being realistic in its views vs. delusional. I also can't really fault them for not building a playoff team within 2 years of blowing things up (it really isn't much time). Youngest team in the league, etc. 2021 is much more realistic, unfortunately, that FA class isn't as deep. Bulls best case scenario is Kwahi signs a 1 yr deal with Toronto, Bulls ascend and he shows an interest in coming here in 2020. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Middle Buffalo Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 5 years $190M for Klay? In actuality, that's 4/190 with the year off. Hard to believe he is worth $48M/year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 8 hours ago, Middle Buffalo said: 5 years $190M for Klay? In actuality, that's 4/190 with the year off. Hard to believe he is worth $48M/year. With a salary cap system, can't get too wrapped up in the dollar figure. The question is whether he's worth X% of the cap, which in this case is based on the yearly salary. And with Steph and now D'Angelo Russell on the team, GS is now in the position where they could keep Klay at this salary but they couldn't replace him with someone at the same salary because of the way the soft cap allows you to go over the cap to keep your own guys but not to add new ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thxfrthmmrs Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, Chisoxfn said: This post times 100. The worst part about the Bulls is they ended up being a year away from being able to be ready for the 2019 plan. The reality was the team was just way too young this year (and combined with injuries) to really contend. Bmags could be on to something that maybe they would have looked different if they added more vets last off-season (vs. signing it all on Parker). Not sure it matters, I just think the reality is 2 years to turn a team around from scratch is tight (which is really all the Bulls had). If they started off strong and overachieved, I don't think they trade for Porter, heck, I think they are looking at AD and are probably pushing 2 max slots and would have been a talked about destination. Reality is that didn't happen and I give the FO credit for being realistic in its views vs. delusional. I also can't really fault them for not building a playoff team within 2 years of blowing things up (it really isn't much time). Youngest team in the league, etc. 2021 is much more realistic, unfortunately, that FA class isn't as deep. Bulls best case scenario is Kwahi signs a 1 yr deal with Toronto, Bulls ascend and he shows an interest in coming here in 2020. I still think 2019 was their best chance given they could have fit any 2 max contracts with a few moves to clear cap space. I know that our big 3 are young, but they only need to be complimentary pieces in that scenario. Heck, people are even penciling Nets as a legit contender next season when KD comes back fairly healthy, and I will just mention again that I think Bulls core is better than Nets core by a good margin. Now if we want to put all eggs in the 2021 basket, we’d need the big 3 plus Coby to yield at least 1 star and a couple of strong complementary pieces AND to be able to get to the 2nd round of playoffs. With Lauri extension kicking in then, they’d only have room for 1 max so it puts more pressure to have a strong foundation and whoever that’s gonna come in will put us over the top of being a legit contender. Edited July 2, 2019 by thxfrthmmrs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 12 hours ago, Chisoxfn said: This post times 100. The worst part about the Bulls is they ended up being a year away from being able to be ready for the 2019 plan. The reality was the team was just way too young this year (and combined with injuries) to really contend. Bmags could be on to something that maybe they would have looked different if they added more vets last off-season (vs. signing it all on Parker). Not sure it matters, I just think the reality is 2 years to turn a team around from scratch is tight (which is really all the Bulls had). If they started off strong and overachieved, I don't think they trade for Porter, heck, I think they are looking at AD and are probably pushing 2 max slots and would have been a talked about destination. Reality is that didn't happen and I give the FO credit for being realistic in its views vs. delusional. I also can't really fault them for not building a playoff team within 2 years of blowing things up (it really isn't much time). Youngest team in the league, etc. 2021 is much more realistic, unfortunately, that FA class isn't as deep. Bulls best case scenario is Kwahi signs a 1 yr deal with Toronto, Bulls ascend and he shows an interest in coming here in 2020. About as likely as Knicks fans thinking they can pull Giannis in. Here's the problem with the Bulls, Knicks, etc. - they have a bunch of old (white) owners/executives who have bad reps throughout the league. Take away Jordan and the Reinsdorf Bulls have been awful. That's literally the only thing that makes the Bulls the Bulls at this point. Chicago might as well be Milwaukee - two cold ass Midwest cities that no free agent cares to go to. At the end of the day these guys want to be with cool, rich, hip owners and/or teams that have deep connections to cool, rich and hip people (e.g., Rock Nation, Klutch, people in LA, Silicon Valley, etc.) They want to be paid for their basketball but also be connected to an entire other world of people who can increase their brand. Jay-Z and all that he can bring is why the Nets are now way more attractive than the Knicks. The Bulls only hope is to luck into the next big superstar via the draft. And that's not happening if they finish with the 8th to 5th seed in the playoffs every year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan99 Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 1 minute ago, Jenksismyhero said: The Bulls only hope is to luck into the next big superstar via the draft. And that's not happening if they finish with the 8th to 5th seed in the playoffs every year. It can (see Kawhi Leonard or Giannis) but it is obviously much less likely picking lower in the draft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 1 minute ago, whitesoxfan99 said: It can (see Kawhi Leonard or Giannis) but it is obviously much less likely picking lower in the draft. I mean those types of superstars - the ones capable of single-handedly making you a contending team - are incredibly rare outside of the lottery. You picked maybe the two best in the history of the league. It just doesn't happen very often. More likely you get the Doug McDermott's of the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 Funny but of all the superstars in the league I can only think of Steph currently with their original team after the first extension, though there is a sliding scale and I guess Westbrook would be the borderline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 (edited) FWIW, it's clear that part of Kyrie's choosing to go to Brooklyn is that he is from NJ and clearly sees himself as a New Yorker. That opened the door to pulling KD in as well, who is not a native New Yorker. Probably speaks quite ill of the Wizards that they ended up out of the discussion for Durant. Bulls should feel the worst that it appears there was zero thought on the part of Anthony Davis to go to his hometown team. On the other hand, every player is different — it seems like a major priority for AD was to get paired with a LBJ-caliber superstar. Oops, Bulls don't have that. It's hard to make a superstar want to come to you when they prefer for another superstar to be there already. And when you trade for them, you might get something great (Toronto) or you might pay dearly and have little to show for it (Boston, Philly and/or Minnesota). Time will tell, but Toronto may end up a cautionary tale if Kawhi departs; you would have thought that if your gamble paid off and you got a title, that would be the one thing to guarantee your new superstar stays in town. If not, then the superstar acquisition game is even riskier than it already looked. Edited July 2, 2019 by Jake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 8 minutes ago, bmags said: Funny but of all the superstars in the league I can only think of Steph currently with their original team after the first extension, though there is a sliding scale and I guess Westbrook would be the borderline. Feels a little like the new supermax contracts will end up not helping teams keep their stars all that much and instead leave them paying even more to second-tier stars that never would have left even if there was no supermax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 5 minutes ago, bmags said: Funny but of all the superstars in the league I can only think of Steph currently with their original team after the first extension, though there is a sliding scale and I guess Westbrook would be the borderline. Remind me the last big name FA that agreed to come to Chicago. In the last 20 years I can think of 2 - Ben Wallace and Carlos Boozer. How many have been discussed? Dozens. Elder-Wade does not count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 3 minutes ago, Jenksismyhero said: Remind me the last big name FA that agreed to come to Chicago. In the last 20 years I can think of 2 - Ben Wallace and Carlos Boozer. How many have been discussed? Dozens. Elder-Wade does not count. And Wallace and Boozer were still the second tier guys, not the best available. Stars don’t wants to come to the Bulls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 17 minutes ago, Jenksismyhero said: Remind me the last big name FA that agreed to come to Chicago. In the last 20 years I can think of 2 - Ben Wallace and Carlos Boozer. How many have been discussed? Dozens. Elder-Wade does not count. I'm just stating that even the plan to draft a star sucks because by time they are truly a star they have left. And I don't think it's a chicago problem, it's a bulls management problem. We've talked a lot about the nets, but one of their big advantages over the lolknicks is they invested a crapton of money into sports science. Would you feel more comfortable extending your career there or with Dolan, who could not keep Porzingis healthy. Would you feel more comfortable there or with the bulls who...(I don't need to finish this sentence). What Toronto just did with Kawhi is a big feather in their cap. Stuff like that matters. The bulls are an incredibly valuable and wealthy nba organization with a small front office staff. Why are they not using their money they don't spend on tax and pushing the boundaries for whatever extra margin they can find? If they do the hard work the rest falls into place. But they did buy two monitors for their analytics guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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