mqr Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 48 minutes ago, South Sider said: I love Abreu. I'm all for keeping him around to eat the sweet, sweet fruits of this rebuild. He wants to win, and he wants to win where he put in blood, sweat and tears to build a winner. Yes, but at some point his presence will be an active hindrance to those goals. That could be as early as next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveno89 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 1 hour ago, mqr said: Yes, but at some point his presence will be an active hindrance to those goals. That could be as early as next year. The extension suggestions I see being thrown around online are crazy to me. Abreu is a quality veteran, but I am leery of extending him beyond another season or two. Sox hold leverage, as I do not think Abreu would get more than two years on the open market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 3 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said: It can easily be accomplished since he wants to play for the Sox and the Sox value him as a player and leader. Secondly I don't see how my posts make you want to cry. I am basically saying the same thing as Poppysox. If you can get a good return for him trade him then resign him or extend him if they can't get what they want for him. This is simply not going to happen. I'd love to see Stoney and Jason address this kind of talk. They are not going to flip him then reacquire him. Let me know when this is discussed for real on the talk shows and national media reports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 2 hours ago, mqr said: Yes, but at some point his presence will be an active hindrance to those goals. That could be as early as next year. You guys act like we are going to have a superstar at every position. If that's the case you are right we don't need Abreu and we'll be the best team in baseball history. Some of you are so so worried about age. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 2 hours ago, poppysox said: Seems like the kind of guy we should want to keep around. Intangibles don't matter any more. It's all about the statistically molded baseball player. He has to be a certain age and has to have a certain type of projected WAR and all those other categories. Intangibles mean nothing to the modern fan. I didn't even go see Moneyball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackDoorBreach Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 3 minutes ago, greg775 said: You guys act like we are going to have a superstar at every position. If that's the case you are right we don't need Abreu and we'll be the best team in baseball history. Some of you are so so worried about age. Funny enough, it's going to be pretty close. At least All-Star caliber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 3 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said: Funny enough, it's going to be pretty close. At least All-Star caliber. This is what is amazing to me. The perfect rebuild/tank job (in 'some' fans eyes) is meant to not only win but win so big that competition won't really matter. The rebuilt tank team will be so good Jose Abreu's are not even wanted. There will be perfectly acquired stars at every position. It's no longer required of a GM to build a good team and see if it can catch playoff fever and go all the way, you build a team of phenoms at every spot. In terms of discarding guys like Jose on a perfectly rebuilt Sox team, it reminds me of the Stooges episode where Curley has a wad of money and is counting the bills: "$100, $100, $100, $100 ...hmm a $50." Then he crumples it up and throws it on the sidewalk and after a pause, all 3 Stooges dive on it as the episode ends. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron883 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 2 minutes ago, greg775 said: This is what is amazing to me. The perfect rebuild/tank job (in 'some' fans eyes) is meant to not only win but win so big that competition won't really matter. The rebuilt tank team will be so good Jose Abreu's are not even wanted. There will be perfectly acquired stars at every position. It's no longer required of a GM to build a good team and see if it can catch playoff fever and go all the way, you build a team of phenoms at every spot. In terms of discarding guys like Jose on a perfectly rebuilt Sox team, it reminds me of the Stooges episode where Curley has a wad of money and is counting the bills: "$100, $100, $100, $100 ...hmm a $50." Then he crumples it up and throws it on the sidewalk and after a pause, all 3 Stooges dive on it as the episode ends. What in the hell are you talking about? Is any of what you wrote there legitimately reality to you? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 4 minutes ago, ron883 said: What in the hell are you talking about? Is any of what you wrote there legitimately reality to you? One of the posters already agreed with my assessment that fans want stars at every position. How else do you explain the discarding away of Jose so simply as if he's a stiff. He doesn't fit the profile of the rebuild/tank team in some fans' eyes. Too old. Next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mqr Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 21 minutes ago, greg775 said: Intangibles don't matter any more. It's all about the statistically molded baseball player. He has to be a certain age and has to have a certain type of projected WAR and all those other categories. Intangibles mean nothing to the modern fan. I didn't even go see Moneyball. Thinking emotionally like this is how you end up trading away Gleyber Torres and Eloy Jimenez instead of Kyle Schwarber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Hibbard Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) I still wonder how many of the same people who are leery of an Abreu extension were probably crying for the team to extend Paulie for three years at two years older in 2010 for the same money. And no, Konerko didn't win the World Series by himself. Also, just because Reinsdorf make us feel like there are choices to be made about where the money goes doesn't mean there actually is. Pay the man $30-$35 million and let's just have him be a career white sox. There's even a chance he produces roughly the same over the next three years as a DH and we end up with #79 being retired by the team. If he doesn't produce, we just let him go. It's really not that hard. Edited July 10, 2019 by Greg Hibbard 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 13 minutes ago, Greg Hibbard said: I still wonder how many of the same people who are leery of an Abreu extension were probably crying for the team to extend Paulie for three years at two years older in 2010 for the same money. And no, Konerko didn't win the World Series by himself. Also, just because Reinsdorf make us feel like there are choices to be made about where the money goes doesn't mean there actually is. Pay the man $30-$35 million and let's just have him be a career white sox. There's even a chance he produces roughly the same over the next three years as a DH and we end up with #79 being retired by the team. If he doesn't produce, we just let him go. It's really not that hard. I agree. Considering the White Sox have saved so much money and stuffed it in Jerry's wallet the past many seasons, the money issue bores me regarding the White Sox. The Sox make so much money it's a bore to discuss pennies that go to most players. You said it all: You said: "Pay the man $30-$35 million and let's just have him be a career white sox. There's even a chance he produces roughly the same over the next three years as a DH and we end up with #79 being retired by the team. If he doesn't produce, we just let him go. It's really not that hard." AMEN. But Hibbard ... you and I know the problem. He projects poorly in the new age of projecting players and that can't be overcome. Age. I just think the talk of flipping him, then re-signing him is weird and dumb. So the team acquiring him truly is giving up 3 prospects for 2 months and the postseason since there's a wink/wink agreement to rejoin the Sox. Not happening. Too many unknowns regarding what he could make in free agency in that situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron883 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) 39 minutes ago, greg775 said: One of the posters already agreed with my assessment that fans want stars at every position. How else do you explain the discarding away of Jose so simply as if he's a stiff. He doesn't fit the profile of the rebuild/tank team in some fans' eyes. Too old. Next. The part where you are mad about tanking but the tanking rebuilt team will be so stacked with phenoms that it won't need a good player like Jose Abreu, which makes you mad again. You hate tanking, but the result is a theoretical team with phenoms at every position (which would lead to a dynasty), but it upsets you that this dynasty team doesn't haven't Jose Abreu. First off, the dynasty team with phenoms at every position is obviously a pipedream that won't happen. Not everybody will be stars. For some reason it bothers you that the team would be a complete dynasty, because no Jose. Edited July 10, 2019 by ron883 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogan873 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 Greg's emotional rants aside, I'm still in the school of thought that Jose is more valuable than he's given credit for. And that's both on and off the field. He's certainly more valuable to remain a Sox player vs. being traded now. There's not huge demand for power hitting 1B/DH guys with 1/2 year control. I don't see the Sox getting much for him if they were tempted to trade him. The real question will be whether he is a White Sox after this season. I believe he will be, and a 2 year deal at $12M per or so seems reasonable. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 44 minutes ago, Tony said: It's really a shocking feat that you've spent over a decade here and have over 34,000+ posts on a White Sox message board, yet have such a limited understanding of the game, league and sport. surely you don't deny the increase in concern about a player once they hit the age of 32; ageism if you will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 4 minutes ago, greg775 said: surely you don't deny the increase in concern about a player once they hit the age of 32; ageism if you will. But you deny the falloff in people's numbers at that age. 1 hour ago, greg775 said: Intangibles don't matter any more. It's all about the statistically molded baseball player. He has to be a certain age and has to have a certain type of projected WAR and all those other categories. Intangibles mean nothing to the modern fan. I didn't even go see Moneyball. Ironically, Jose Abreu is a guy that from an outside perspective you might think has really bad intangibles. His career won-loss record is terrible, he's been on multiple teams that underperformed even when they said "We think we'll be right there at the end." For a guy who says "just win baby" you should want guys who lose that many games gone, but then no one ever said you'd be consistent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Hibbard Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: But you deny the falloff in people's numbers at that age. Ironically, Jose Abreu is a guy that from an outside perspective you might think has really bad intangibles. His career won-loss record is terrible, he's been on multiple teams that underperformed even when they said "We think we'll be right there at the end." For a guy who says "just win baby" you should want guys who lose that many games gone, but then no one ever said you'd be consistent. I'm not sure if you're really serious here, but the whole line of reasoning that Abreu is somehow resonsible for a losing culture just really sucks, though IMO, because Jose had zero to do with those teams underperforming. The 2016 team underperformed because of so many other things. That whole campaign was an utter disaster. I'm not sure where you think 2017 and 2018 should have been "performance-wise" for the team, given what they chose as the direction. It's also hard to think that Jose somehow "underperformed" in 2014 when he won ROTY. So what does that leave us? 2015 where he had a slash line almost exactly in line with his career numbers? It makes me sort of angry that the only guy we have been able to truly count on for possibly one of the worst 6 year stretches in franchise history is held to this completely unreasonable standard that no one else ever is. Edited July 10, 2019 by Greg Hibbard 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 1 minute ago, Greg Hibbard said: I'm not sure if you're really serious here, but the whole line of reasoning that Abreu is somehow resonsible for a losing culture just really sucks, though IMO, because Jose had zero to do with those teams underperforming. The 2016 team underperformed because of so many other things. That whole campaign was an utter disaster. I'm not sure where you think 2017 and 2018 should have been "performance-wise" for the team, given what they chose as the direction. It's also hard to think that Jose somehow "underperformed" in 2014 when he won ROTY. So what does that leave us? 2015 where he had a slash line almost exactly in line with his career numbers? It makes me sort of angry that the only guy we have been able ton truly count on for possibly one of the worst 6 year stretches in franchise history is held to this completely unreasonable standard that no one else ever is. Not being serious, rather treating unserious posts by an unserious poster as they should be treated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackDoorBreach Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 I guess I just don't see the value in giving a mid 30's defensively bad 1B a 3 year deal when his replacement should be up in a year or so. It's not just a money thing that's a roster spot. We're going to carry 2 1B/DH and 2 catchers? Limiting your bench options there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackDoorBreach Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 1 minute ago, Tony said: Value isn't really being argued here, it's mostly sentiment. That's a really bad way to run a professional baseball team that should be contending. I'm glad Jose enjoys his time here, I just don't see how it works 2 years from now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 4 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said: I guess I just don't see the value in giving a mid 30's defensively bad 1B a 3 year deal when his replacement should be up in a year or so. It's not just a money thing that's a roster spot. We're going to carry 2 1B/DH and 2 catchers? Limiting your bench options there. I see no problem with a team having a 5 man rotation, 9 man lineup including DH and 1b, 7 man bullpen, 1 backup catcher, and 3 other bench players. As long as your bench players can cover a couple positions, that's a normal lineup construction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Hibbard Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 Let's just say for a moment that Jose Abreu is at 80% of his career numbers for 3 years purely at DH. Even from a value perspective, isn't an .800+ OPS reliable DH enough? I know everyone is high on the prospects we have coming up, but it's not like Collins projects to necessarily be better than a slightly declined Jose. Vaughn also might need a year to settle in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 6 minutes ago, Greg Hibbard said: Let's just say for a moment that Jose Abreu is at 80% of his career numbers for 3 years purely at DH. Even from a value perspective, isn't an .800+ OPS reliable DH enough? I know everyone is high on the prospects we have coming up, but it's not like Collins projects to necessarily be better than a slightly declined Jose. Vaughn also might need a year to settle in. Yes, if he could continue his current numbers for 3 years that would be solid performance from the DH spot and worth roughly $10-12 million per year. But, his stats have declined considerably over the past 3 years. He's hovered in 2018/2019 but that's way down from 2017, including in important categories like hitting the fastball that players get worse at with time. Is it a good guess that age hit him hard between 30 and 32 but he'll hold roughly steady between 32 and 35? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mqr Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 50 minutes ago, Greg Hibbard said: Let's just say for a moment that Jose Abreu is at 80% of his career numbers for 3 years purely at DH. Even from a value perspective, isn't an .800+ OPS reliable DH enough? I know everyone is high on the prospects we have coming up, but it's not like Collins projects to necessarily be better than a slightly declined Jose. Vaughn also might need a year to settle in. Obviously if you guarantee production, I'd be in. But you can't. I don't dislike Jose and I appreciate the tiny bit of sanity he's provided over the last 5 and half years, but the team needs to be careful in assessing this situation and shouldn't be handing out, idk, 40 million dollars for feels. If Moncada and Jimenez and whoever else can't survive their friends leaving the team, assuming it's on good enough terms, they're in trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 3 hours ago, hogan873 said: Greg's emotional rants aside, I'm still in the school of thought that Jose is more valuable than he's given credit for. And that's both on and off the field. He's certainly more valuable to remain a Sox player vs. being traded now. There's not huge demand for power hitting 1B/DH guys with 1/2 year control. I don't see the Sox getting much for him if they were tempted to trade him. The real question will be whether he is a White Sox after this season. I believe he will be, and a 2 year deal at $12M per or so seems reasonable. I’d shoot for a 2/$25M extension but would be willing to go 2/$30M given the intangibles he brings to the table. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.