Panerista Posted July 15, 2019 Author Share Posted July 15, 2019 The point remains: It's unlikely the Sox are going to sign Robert and he is going to be in the minors for the remainder of the season to prolong the window. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 3 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said: What? Yoenis Cespedes has never even finished top-8 in MVP voting. Puig has never finished better than top-15. Abreu has finished 4th. None of this really matters but the argument you're making is just not even close to being true. Gee, well...he was on the A’s and Mets in 2015, you can’t win it in both leagues for your cumulative year. The point remains, he was the only true MVP candidate. Abreu was on a bad White Sox team, he was never going to be Top 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 4 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Gee, well...he was on the A’s and Mets in 2015, you can’t win it in both leagues for your cumulative year. The point remains, he was the only true MVP candidate. Abreu was on a bad White Sox team, he was never going to be Top 3. He finished 13th in AL voting that year. He was good but I wouldn't call him an MVP candidate, so I don't think your point remains. Someone who finishes 4th in MVP voting is a candidate, not someone who never finishes better than 8th Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moan4Yoan Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 Unless the Sox extend Robert, I see no reason to call him up until after the deadline next April. Get the extra year of control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vote4Pedro Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 34 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said: Unless the Sox extend Robert, I see no reason to call him up until after the deadline next April. Get the extra year of control. This the type of thinking that drives me crazy. The Sox lost out on Machado for worrying about his final portion of his contract 8 years from now, worry about the extensions in 5-6 years from now, let the kid come up and get the MLB at bats so the window is optimized sooner rather than worrying about that extra year of control on the back end. If the team becomes contenders and they do what we all think they will be able to do then the extension should be easier to do later down the line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raBBit Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 8 minutes ago, beckham15 said: This the type of thinking that drives me crazy. The Sox lost out on Machado for worrying about his final portion of his contract 8 years from now, worry about the extensions in 5-6 years from now, let the kid come up and get the MLB at bats so the window is optimized sooner rather than worrying about that extra year of control on the back end. If the team becomes contenders and they do what we all think they will be able to do then the extension should be easier to do later down the line. These are just totally different scenarios. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vote4Pedro Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 21 minutes ago, raBBit said: These are just totally different scenarios. I understand they are two totally different scenarios (free agent versus an extra year of control) but at the same time both scenarios are about worrying about what might be in 7 years from now versus optimizing your chances to win here in the near future Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 1 hour ago, Jose Abreu said: He finished 13th in AL voting that year. He was good but I wouldn't call him an MVP candidate, so I don't think your point remains. Someone who finishes 4th in MVP voting is a candidate, not someone who never finishes better than 8th https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/cespeyo01.shtml please refer to his stats with the Mets after he left Detroit and compare them...you can’t combine them together and magically make him the overall NL MVP after the trade, that’s now how it works Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raBBit Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 Just now, beckham15 said: I understand they are two totally different scenarios (free agent versus an extra year of control) but at the same time both scenarios are about worrying about what might be in 7 years from now versus optimizing your chances to win here in the near future They're similar in the sense that the goal is financial prudence but getting 6.85 years of Robert in our competitive window is between than 6 years in our competitive window and 2 months when we're going nowhere. Not wanting to guarantee a player $30M in 9-10 years when they're 36-37 is a more complex argument. Navigating the bargaining agreement to ensure you deploy one of your elite prospects as best as possible is a no brainer for a rebuilding team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 2 hours ago, caulfield12 said: In the end, prime Cespedes was still the only one to put up MVP type numbers among the Cubans. Otherwise, you have Abreu’s rookie season and Puig’s first two years. But there’s no great comp for Robert out there if you limit it to just Cubans. Floor, it’s hopefully Mike Cameron/Devon White. Ceiling, just below Trout. What does being Cuban have to do with his baseball talents? Is there something about being Cuban that limits him? If his floor is Mike Cameron (which I don't disagree on) then they should have zero qualms about signing him. Cameron had 60 career WAR. I think everyone is misunderstanding my point... why do they have to exploit Roberts service time to have him under friendly control one extra year? They can just resign him when he becomes a free agent; it's not as if the Sox have to let him go after his 7 years. They aren't some poor Rays like organization. They can afford to keep their own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 1 hour ago, raBBit said: These are just totally different scenarios. Sure, but preventing a kid from coming up when he's ready because you want to get cheap 7 years from now for one year is the exact same BS that people rip this organization for. Stop calling it SMART and start holding the organization accountable for spending money. If Robert is a star they already get to exploit his pay for 7 YEARS and pay him less than he's worth.. why should we excuse them from calling him up just so they can pay him under market value one extra year? How about we expect the Sox to pay a guy what he's worth and resign him when his contract is up? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said: What does being Cuban have to do with his baseball talents? Is there something about being Cuban that limits him? If his floor is Mike Cameron (which I don't disagree on) then they should have zero qualms about signing him. Cameron had 60 career WAR. I think everyone is misunderstanding my point... why do they have to exploit Roberts service time to have him under friendly control one extra year? They can just resign him when he becomes a free agent; it's not as if the Sox have to let him go after his 7 years. They aren't some poor Rays like organization. They can afford to keep their own. Because their offer to Machado and comments afterwards have already told you they will be cash strapped in 8 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 1 hour ago, raBBit said: They're similar in the sense that the goal is financial prudence but getting 6.85 years of Robert in our competitive window is between than 6 years in our competitive window and 2 months when we're going nowhere. Not wanting to guarantee a player $30M in 9-10 years when they're 36-37 is a more complex argument. Navigating the bargaining agreement to ensure you deploy one of your elite prospects as best as possible is a no brainer for a rebuilding team. This is complete and utter team-speak nonsense and BS. This is an excuse to underpay a guy for an additional year because the organization is cheap. Do you think the Yankees or Red Sox think about this stuff if a player is ready? No because if the player is that good they can just resign him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 Just now, Dick Allen said: Because their offer to Machado and comments afterwards have already told you they will be cash strapped in 8 years. I thought the comment was they would need the money to sign their own, like this case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 Just now, ptatc said: I thought the comment was they would need the money to sign their own, like this case. EXACTLY! That was their entire excuse for not going to 300 and 10 years was they had to give big money to their home grown stars, and yet... here we are... making an excuse and rationalization for not paying those guys what their worth now too. Amazing really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soxfan49 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 2 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: Because their offer to Machado and comments afterwards have already told you they will be cash strapped in 8 years. Not being a smartass but I don't remember this at all. Granted I was on a plane quite literally taking off as I got the alert that SD signed Machado, but I don't remember Hahn and KW flat out saying that they anticipate being cash strapped in 8 years. The only thing I can think of is that they're thinking optimistically that Cease, Kopech, Giolito, Moncada, Robert and Jimenez are going to be the real deal and won't want to pay not-one-of-their-own (Machado) all that money when he's that old. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, soxfan49 said: Not being a smartass but I don't remember this at all. Granted I was on a plane quite literally taking off as I got the alert that SD signed Machado, but I don't remember Hahn and KW flat out saying that they anticipate being cash strapped in 8 years. The only thing I can think of is that they're thinking optimistically that Cease, Kopech, Giolito, Moncada, Robert and Jimenez are going to be the real deal and won't want to pay not-one-of-their-own (Machado) all that money when he's that old. They said they wouldn't be able to afford to put a good team on the field if they had to pay him an additional 2 years. Edited July 15, 2019 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 Just now, Dick Allen said: They said they wouldn't be able to put a good team on the field if they had to pay him an additional 2 years. They used the kids as an excuse stating they had to resign all of them when their contracts expired which was why that couldn't commit the two extra years to Manny. Them blaming the kids was the most outrageous part about that entire process imo. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yesterday333 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 22 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: This is complete and utter team-speak nonsense and BS. This is an excuse to underpay a guy for an additional year because the organization is cheap. Do you think the Yankees or Red Sox think about this stuff if a player is ready? No because if the player is that good they can just resign him. We cant make him sign here is the problem. What if he becomes Trout and the Yankees or Red Sox offer him an amount of money we don't have? We don't have the money they have. Also, what if he wants to go play with his friends somewhere like they do in basketball. Some people think we should control what we can control. Be sure he is here as long as we can keep him here. I see both sides of the argument and I really don't lean either way. But there is validity to keeping him an extra year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: They used the kids as an excuse stating they had to resign all of them when their contracts expired which was why that couldn't commit the two extra years to Manny. Them blaming the kids was the most outrageous part about that entire process imo. So we all better hope Lou Bob is great, but not too great. The fact of the matter is 8 years from now there is a better chance JR, KW and RH are not in their current positons then they are seen at Guaranteed Rate Field every day. So the whole thing was just a stupid comment. As for service time manipulation, right now it's part of the game. Service time is something front offices should be more than aware of. PTAC has an issue with service time manipulation except when it comes to Super Two. To me, that is hypocritical. It's the same concept. I am sure it is something that will be addressed in the next agreement, but for now, 2 weeks for a year of control is a great deal. Who knows where you will be in 6 or 7 years. You may be trading Robert. A year more of control nets better players. Edited July 15, 2019 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveno89 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 3 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: So we all better hope Lou Bob is great, but not too great. The fact of the matter is 8 years from now there is a better chance JR, KW and RH are not in their current positons then they are seen at Guaranteed Rate Field every day. So the whole thing was just a stupid comment. As for service time manipulation, right now it's part of the game. Service time is something front offices should be more than aware of. PTAC has an issue with service time manipulation except when it comes to Super Two. To me, that is hypocritical. It's the same concept. I am sure it is something that will be addressed in the next agreement, but for now, 2 weeks for a year of control is a great deal. Who knows where you will be in 6 or 7 years. You may be trading Robert. A year more of control nets better players. Bingo. It's not about the money per se, but rather the additional season of contractual control. Another season of Robert control becomes a potential future asset that should not be wasted on a non contention season. Sure, he will probably maul AAA pitching, especially with the juiced ball, but it will still aid his development regardless to see more experienced pitching. Robert will be up mid-late April 2020, until then just sit back and enjoy the fireworks in AAA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 5 minutes ago, yesterday333 said: We cant make him sign here is the problem. What if he becomes Trout If Luis Robert becomes Mike Trout, I don't think any of us will care about his service time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mqr Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 Man, I'm already sick of this conversation and it's not even august. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yesterday333 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 4 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said: If Luis Robert becomes Mike Trout, I don't think any of us will care about his service time I was just pointing out ways we could lose him even if we wanted to pay him when his service time was up. So having the extra year of him on our team would be more beneficial at that point and no starting the clock early. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 Just now, yesterday333 said: I was just pointing out ways we could lose him even if we wanted to pay him when his service time was up. So having the extra year of him on our team would be more beneficial at that point and no starting the clock early. If the White Sox offer him the most money - as is always the case with stars and free agency - then they can retain him. The only way the Sox would lose him is if they didn't pay the most. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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