Look at Ray Ray Run Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 On 7/15/2019 at 6:47 PM, Jack Parkman said: They wouldn't pay for Machado, they won't pay for Moncada, Robert or anyone else. The White Sox, under this ownership group, have proven they will not pay top dollar for top talent. They need to maximize 2020-2023, because if this is the real Moncada and Giolito they're not going to be re-signed. Expand Machado wasnt their player and they had the second highest bid on the table. It wasn't exactly a non-competitive offer either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illinilaw08 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 On 7/15/2019 at 6:37 PM, Eloy Jiménez said: Luis will have time to adjust in 2020 Expand But if the contention window opens in 2020, that adjustment time is costing the Sox in meaningful games. 2019 games are not meaningful, so if Robert scuffles early, who cares. If 2020 is "maybe we get lucky and contend for a Wild Card spot," sure, take service time into account. If 2020 is Sox are pushing for the division title, then Robert's adjustment period (if any) hurts that goal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 On 7/15/2019 at 6:51 PM, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Machado wasnt their player and they had the second highest bid on the table. It wasn't exactly a non-competitive offer either. Expand It was, in fact, a non-competitive offer. I don't want to rehash this, but anyone with a brain knew that Machado wasn't signing any contract with a dollar figure that didn't start with a 3. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 On 7/15/2019 at 6:50 PM, ChiSox59 said: Says the fact that they are a mid market team and the largest contact in franchise history is $68M. That figure is almost certainly going to be beat ( probably by a significant margin) soon, but I don't see the Sox handing out what may end up being a half a billion dollar deal if Robert (or Moncada) end up being legitimate super stars that will command that type of payday down the line. Obviously I'd love to be wrong, but I'd rather keep said player an additional season under their initial contract if all I am giving up in return is 1.5 months of a bats in a lost season and 2 weeks of at bats in April. I know you disagree. We've discussed it at length. We can agree to disagree. Expand Fair enough. I know it would be unprecedented but if this team is good and has good success together, I'd bet on the sox retaing more than less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 On 7/15/2019 at 6:53 PM, Jack Parkman said: It was, in fact, a non-competitive offer. I don't want to rehash this, but anyone with a brain knew that Machado wasn't signing any contract with a dollar figure that didn't start with a 3. Expand I dont think you know what the term competitive means in a contract sense. They offered the second most guaranteed money and had escalators to give him the most. That is by definition a competitive offer. The padres off was "better" but it wasnt some well over market offer. Unless you think only one team makes competitive offers to free agents (the team that signs the player) then you're off base here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 (edited) On 7/15/2019 at 6:55 PM, Look at Ray Ray Run said: I dont think you know what the term competitive means in a contract sense. They offered the second most guaranteed money and had escalators to give him the most. That is by definition a competitive offer. The padres off was "better" but it wasnt some well over market offer. Unless you think only one team makes competitive offers to free agents (the team that signs the player) then you're off base here. Expand Signing free agents is pretty much a binary activity. You don't get a trophy for a competitive offer. It was a fail, compounded by the cash they spent on his wothless friends. Edited July 15, 2019 by Dick Allen 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 (edited) On 7/15/2019 at 6:55 PM, Look at Ray Ray Run said: I dont think you know what the term competitive means in a contract sense. They offered the second most guaranteed money and had escalators to give him the most. That is by definition a competitive offer. The padres off was "better" but it wasnt some well over market offer. Unless you think only one team makes competitive offers to free agents (the team that signs the player) then you're off base here. Expand I don't think any contract offer that was under $300M in guaranteed money was competitive. In this case, there was only one team that gave him a serious offer and that was the Padres. There is a certain dollar value for free agents and the Sox didn't meet the reserve. Edited July 15, 2019 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 On 7/15/2019 at 6:56 PM, Dick Allen said: Signing free agents is pretty much a binary activity. You don't get a trophy for a competitive offer. It was a fail. Expand I dont disagree but dont say they didnt make a competitive offer when they had the second best offer sheet on the table by a good bit. That offer, as an example, may have been signed by someone who had already player and worked with the organization. Machado had no season to sign it, but to someone who has roots down and the dollars could be more if things were done in good faith it may have been the best. The sox weren't outbid by the Dodgers, yankees or red Sox which seems to be the fear with robert for some reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 On 7/15/2019 at 6:57 PM, Jack Parkman said: I don't think any contract offer that was under $300M in guaranteed money was competitive. In this case, there was only one team that gave him a serious offer and that was the Padres. Expand So only one major league team offered a competitive offer to an elite talent? Seems like your definition of competitive doesnt equal the widely assessed market value of said asset. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 On 7/15/2019 at 5:58 PM, ChiSox59 said: Well, I think we'll all be pretty damn disappointed when he leaves for FA a year earlier than he would have if the Sox didn't waste a year on 200 at bats in a 75 win season. Expand My point was that if he's Trout, the World Series banners will soften the blow of him leaving. Before anyone says Trout is ringless, Robert's supporting cast is going to be much, much better. That said, he won't be Trout, I'm just responding to the original poster. These would be great problems to have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 (edited) On 7/15/2019 at 6:58 PM, Look at Ray Ray Run said: I dont disagree but dont say they didnt make a competitive offer when they had the second best offer sheet on the table by a good bit. That offer, as an example, may have been signed by someone who had already player and worked with the organization. Machado had no season to sign it, but to someone who has roots down and the dollars could be more if things were done in good faith it may have been the best. The sox weren't outbid by the Dodgers, yankees or red Sox which seems to be the fear with robert for some reason. Expand We're going to agree to disagree here. Did they offer $300M in guaranteed dollars? No. Therefore, their offer was not competitive. Very black and white. It's like going to an auction and not meeting the reserve price. If nobody else ever offered 300M guaranteed, then nobody was serious about signing Machado other than the Padres. If the Padres didn't step up, he'd be on a 1 year deal right now. Edited July 15, 2019 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 On 7/15/2019 at 6:58 PM, Look at Ray Ray Run said: I dont disagree but dont say they didnt make a competitive offer when they had the second best offer sheet on the table by a good bit. That offer, as an example, may have been signed by someone who had already player and worked with the organization. Machado had no season to sign it, but to someone who has roots down and the dollars could be more if things were done in good faith it may have been the best. The sox weren't outbid by the Dodgers, yankees or red Sox which seems to be the fear with robert for some reason. Expand Like with Abreu, the stars were aligned where the heavy spenders weren't going to be making bids. When Robert becomes a free agent, if he turns into a superstar, at this point, we have no idea who will need an OF at that price. It could be only the cheapskates, or it could be NY, LA, Bos. I don't like the Sox chances if those teams have a real need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 (edited) On 7/15/2019 at 7:00 PM, Look at Ray Ray Run said: So only one major league team offered a competitive offer to an elite talent? Seems like your definition of competitive doesnt equal the widely assessed market value of said asset. Expand Yes. That is what I said and that is what I believe. They went to an auction and didn't meet the reserve price. Read my above post. Edited July 15, 2019 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 On 7/15/2019 at 7:02 PM, Jack Parkman said: Yes. That is what I said and that is what I believe. Read my above post. Expand Yes, and youd be incorrect when it comes to asset valuation. We're not talking about your opinion here jack. The market was set at 250 million, not 300 million. 300 million was the end price but that doesnt mean the only competitive offer was 300 million. In fact, it took competitive offers to push the ceiling north of what the industry viewed his value. In a blind bid process, the market value is set by the culmination of all bids not the peak bid. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 On 7/15/2019 at 7:07 PM, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Yes, and youd be incorrect when it comes to asset valuation. We're not talking about your opinion here jack. The market was set at 250 million, not 300 million. 300 million was the end price but that doesnt mean the only competitive offer was 300 million. In fact, it took competitive offers to push the ceiling north of what the industry viewed his value. In a blind bid process, the market value is set by the culmination of all bids not the peak bid. Expand But my point is (and always has been) that 300M was the "reserve price" He was never signing a long term deal under that dollar amount. Period. He would have waited until June and signed a deal to go back on the market this offseason before signing what the Sox offered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 (edited) On 7/15/2019 at 7:10 PM, Jack Parkman said: But my point is (and always has been) that 300M was the "reserve price" He was never signing a long term deal under that dollar amount. Period. He would have waited until June and signed a deal to go back on the market this offseason before signing what the Sox offered. Expand So if no one offered him that he would have retired? Come on Jack, you're a smart guy. Your last paragraph is so wrong Jack idk what to tell you. So he was gonna hold out for two more years or sign a 1 year deal and expose himself to risk of injury or depleting skills... he was never worth more than he was worth this offseason. Hes not getting young. He wouldnt take a 1 year deal and push off free agency another year. That's nonsense. If I have a $10 bill and I want to sell it for change because I need change... of 32 people, 28 of them offer me 9.95 because they know I'm desperate. 2 guys offer me $10, one guy $11 because he really hates change and one guy offers $14 because he really hates change and hates $11 man. It wouldnt mean that $11 is no longer a competitive offer... it would simply mean someone was willing to pay even more than 99% of others thought it was worth. A competitive offer would be anything north of what the majority viewed its value as. I should have used the value of a home and not a $10 bill since player values fluctuate based on organization but I'm too lazy to retype it and you get the point. Edited July 15, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneDog847 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 On 7/15/2019 at 6:52 PM, illinilaw08 said: But if the contention window opens in 2020, that adjustment time is costing the Sox in meaningful games. 2019 games are not meaningful, so if Robert scuffles early, who cares. If 2020 is "maybe we get lucky and contend for a Wild Card spot," sure, take service time into account. If 2020 is Sox are pushing for the division title, then Robert's adjustment period (if any) hurts that goal. Expand I'm thinking this is pretty much the White Sox plan for 2020. I hope I'm wrong and that Robert is up in a couple weeks though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 On 7/15/2019 at 12:04 PM, Look at Ray Ray Run said: Instead of exploiting his service time to keep him longer why dont you hold ownership accountable and ask them to resign him? Expand No one is exploiting anyone. Both the players representatives and Rick Hahn know how the system works. The player would like to start his major league career and the club would like the same thing. Work out an arrangement just like Eloy did. The fact someone already has 25 million in the bank is not that different from someone with 2.8 million in the bank. They both want to play in the majors ASAP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 On 7/15/2019 at 7:54 PM, poppysox said: No one is exploiting anyone. Both the players representatives and Rick Hahn know how the system works. The player would like to start his major league career and the club would like the same thing. Work out an arrangement just like Eloy did. The fact someone already has 25 million in the bank is not that different from someone with 2.8 million in the bank. They both want to play in the majors ASAP. Expand It's literally 1000% percent more money so it is, in fact, much different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 On 7/15/2019 at 7:55 PM, Look at Ray Ray Run said: It's literally 1000% percent more money so it is, in fact, much different. Expand On 7/15/2019 at 7:55 PM, Look at Ray Ray Run said: It's literally 1000% percent more money so it is, in fact, much different. Expand Don't be obtuse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mqr Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 (edited) On 7/15/2019 at 7:57 PM, poppysox said: Don't be obtuse. Expand There is an ocean of difference between having 2.6 million dollars and 25 million dollars in the bank. Plenty of people have gone broke with more. Luis's entire family is probably set for a long time. That wasn't the case for Eloy. Edited July 15, 2019 by mqr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 On 7/15/2019 at 8:06 PM, mqr said: There is an ocean of difference between having 2.6 million dollars and 25 million dollars in the bank. Plenty of people have gone broke with more. Luis's entire family is probably set for a long time. That wasn't the case for Eloy. Expand Eloy and Robert both want to be in the major leagues. Eloy's agent made it happen, In a few weeks I predict Robert's agent will also make it happen. Eloy did not sign the extension because he needed money. Just like Robert he knew he would be brought up shortly. He wanted it now...so does Robert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 Half of SoxTalk is worth at least 50% of Jimenez’s $2.6 million. Less than 1% will end up with $20+ million. A world of difference, especially when you account for inflation and future buying/investing power. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomPickle Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 On 7/15/2019 at 8:22 PM, caulfield12 said: Half of SoxTalk is worth at least 50% of Jimenez’s $2.6 million. Expand The median net worth in the United States is ~97k. Unless you know something about the user base of SoxTalk that I don't there is just no way that is true. But this quickly torpedoing into a bad/worthless discussion so that's all I'm going to say. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted July 15, 2019 Share Posted July 15, 2019 On 7/15/2019 at 8:28 PM, TomPickle said: The median net worth in the United States is ~97k. Unless you know something about the user base of SoxTalk that I don't there is just no way that is true. But this quickly torpedoing into a bad/worthless discussion so that's all I'm going to say. Expand Okay, the main moderators, lol. The fact of the matter is that Tatis Jr. and Paddack were jumped with similar amounts of minor league experience to the majors and did just fine. In fact, Tatis was coming off a wrist injury and really proved himself in DR Winter Ball, where they won the championship for first time in decades. No reason Robert can’t do the exact same thing without losing a year. Robert simply needs to hit better than Brian Anderson 2006...but it’s still going to come down to pitching like it always does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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