The rumors were (partially) true: Collins to AAA

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

27 minutes ago, TheTruth05 said:

I am more or less referencing something to the tune of the Yelich trade so it wouldn't be Vaughn for a vet with 2 years left of control but FA is becoming increasingly weak with team extensions and Sox really only have a hypothetical "hole" in the org which is RF. I'm in agreement ideally we would be able to sign a RF instead of having to trade from the farm but when someone like Ozuna/Puig is the best FA option in what might be a possible contending year, it isn't the worst possible scenario but the Sox should be exploring an option where (I'm a huge Vaughn fan btw) they can trade a 1b, elite bat in Vaughn for a stud RF prospect. Now where that OF might come from is a different story, just saying 1b decent glove, good OBP and power is a bit easier to find than an all around stud OF.

 

I think the best option was to call Mendick and Robert up 2 weeks ago and let Robert get acclimated to MLB pitching and Yermin see what you have in him as a possible platoon bat to Collins (at DH of course). I am really in the camp the Sox can compete without having those guys up until May, is it the best option? hell no but I still will consider next year a contending year because most of the main core should and will be up fairly early in the season. Not to mention the clocks on 2 of our best players (Gio, Moncada) are ticking. The Sox need to shape up sooner rather than later.

We're pretty much in agreement but I just don't see RF as a pressing need. 2 pretty good starting pitchers should be what the Sox concentrate on with Cease in his 1st full year and Kopech returning from injury while keeping fingers crossed that Giolito and Lopez can be consistently good. 1 year of Corey Dickerson in RF wouldn't be terrible. Puig I don't want unless they can do an investigation to learn if he has matured from his early days as a problem man/child. Ozuna is interesting as he is near the top of the list as far as hard hit balls this year so he might be hitting into some bad luck but I would imagine he will get at least 3 years and that's not necessary. He is an interesting possibility though.

[Jack Parkman]

1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

We're pretty much in agreement but I just don't see RF as a pressing need. 2 pretty good starting pitchers should be what the Sox concentrate on with Cease in his 1st full year and Kopech returning from injury while keeping fingers crossed that Giolito and Lopez can be consistently good. 1 year of Corey Dickerson in RF wouldn't be terrible. Puig I don't want unless they can do an investigation to learn if he has matured from his early days as a problem man/child. Ozuna is interesting as he is near the top of the list as far as hard hit balls this year so he might be hitting into some bad luck but I would imagine he will get at least 3 years and that's not necessary. He is an interesting possibility though.

Depending on the price, Nomar Mazara is interesting as a stopgap while they see if Walker, Rutherford, Basabe or Adolfo can fill that spot. 

[ChiSox59]

14 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Nobody talks about this enough. They're at the point where it makes zero sense to play silly service time games. You play service games with the first wave, then you bring up the second wave ASAP. If they're going to play games with every kid they draft or acquire, then they'll never have enough talent performing at a high level simultaneously to produce more than 85 wins or so. 

Robert, Madrigal, and Collins should be up here getting regular ABs Monday. 

No.  No they should not.  Collins, sure.  Why not.  Zero reason to call up Robert and Madrigal right now.  Would be idiotic.  

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 minute ago, Jack Parkman said:

Depending on the price, Nomar Mazara is interesting as a stopgap while they see if Walker, Rutherford, Basabe or Adolfo can fill that spot. 

I don't see TX letting him go cheaply since he is still 24 with an upside of 40-50 HR's. Plus he only has 2 years remaining till FA so unless he comes a lot cheaper than I think I don't see it. Also supposedly not a good fielder.

[Thad Bosley]

1 minute ago, ChiSox59 said:

No.  No they should not.  Collins, sure.  Why not.  Zero reason to call up Robert and Madrigal right now.  Would be idiotic.  

On August 16th, now, that should be quite obvious to everyone.  There will be NO sightings of either of those two until mid-April or whatever that time is next year where we get the extra year of control.   

[Jack Parkman]

2 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

No.  No they should not.  Collins, sure.  Why not.  Zero reason to call up Robert and Madrigal right now.  Would be idiotic.  

No it isn't. Especially if they have any growing pains. The only clock that matters is the one on Moncada and Giolito. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

No.  No they should not.  Collins, sure.  Why not.  Zero reason to call up Robert and Madrigal right now.  Would be idiotic.  

You can keep saying it's idiotic but many think it isn't but we just don't say keeping them down is idiotic like it's something that shouldn't be questioned.

I know you think the Sox should or could compete next year so how is keeping them down conducive to winning next year ? Sure maybe in 2025 but why not just say next year is still a year where the Sox won't make the playoffs if you think they should be kept down.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

No it isn't. Especially if they have any growing pains. The only clock that matters is the one on Moncada and Giolito. 

And Lopez because it's possible he can be good too.

[Thad Bosley]

1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

You can keep saying it's idiotic but many think it isn't but we just don't say keeping them down is idiotic like it's something that shouldn't be questioned.

I know you think the Sox should or could compete next year so how is keeping them down conducive to winning next year ? Sure maybe in 2025 but why not just say next year is still a year where the Sox won't make the playoffs if you think they should be kept down.

I think the argument had merit maybe six weeks or so ago.  But with the clock ticking, and with only 42 games left in this season, it doesn't appear it would be worth it to call them up at this point and forego that full year of control down the road.  

[Jack Parkman]

1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

And Lopez because it's possible he can be good too.

Those three all become free following the 2023 season. It's a huge deal. They have to do, at the very least, enough to give them a chance next year.

[Jack Parkman]

2 minutes ago, Thad Bosley said:

I think the argument had merit maybe six weeks or so ago.  But with the clock ticking, and with only 42 games left in this season, it doesn't appear it would be worth it to call them up at this point and forego that full year of control down the road.  

Then why in the hell did they call up Moncada, Lopez and Giolito in August 2017? Then why did they call up Kopech around this time last year? 

Using that logic, none of those players should have been called up until Memorial Day 2018, as their clocks had already started. 

Edited August 16, 2019 by Jack Parkman

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Just now, Thad Bosley said:

I think the argument had merit maybe six weeks or so ago.  But with the clock ticking, and with only 42 games left in this season, it doesn't appear it would be worth it to call them up at this point and forego that full year of control down the road.  

42 games plus however many games they miss at the beginning of next year also and if they need an acclimation period that's more time . I realize competing next year might not happen with such a young starting staff and a bunch of young position players. But if they are going to throw money at FA pitchers and even that is questionable, but let's say for arguments sake they land some good FA pitchers why can't next year be a year to mke the playoffs. Chisox59 thinks the Sox could be competing for a playoff spot next year so his arguments for keeping them down doesn't make me understand why he thinks they can compete without them for the early part of the season.

[TheTruth05]

28 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

We're pretty much in agreement but I just don't see RF as a pressing need. 2 pretty good starting pitchers should be what the Sox concentrate on with Cease in his 1st full year and Kopech returning from injury while keeping fingers crossed that Giolito and Lopez can be consistently good. 1 year of Corey Dickerson in RF wouldn't be terrible. Puig I don't want unless they can do an investigation to learn if he has matured from his early days as a problem man/child. Ozuna is interesting as he is near the top of the list as far as hard hit balls this year so he might be hitting into some bad luck but I would imagine he will get at least 3 years and that's not necessary. He is an interesting possibility though.

That's a very fair take, I do agree pitching will be priority this offseason but I truly do believe they will get 2 TOR pitchers out of Gio/Cease/Kopech so they can sign a Tier B pitcher like Wheeler or Bumgarner (who I'm starting to prefer now) and they would be fine trotting out a rotation Gio/Bumgarner or Wheeler/Cease/Lopez/Kopech with an innings limit.

Edited August 16, 2019 by TheTruth05

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 minutes ago, TheTruth05 said:

That's a very fair take, I do agree pitching will be priority this offseason but I truly do believe they will get 2 TOR out of Gio/Cease/Kopech so they can sign a Tier B pitcher like Wheeler or Bumgarner (who I'm starting to prefer now) and they would be fine trotting out a rotation Gio/Bumgarner or Wheeler/Cease/Lopez/Kopech with an innings limit.

Jack said the same thing about TOR starters from Gio/Cease/Kopech but as with all young pitchers the question is not only thinking you will get TOR starting from them but WHEN will you get it. That could still be 2/3 years from now. Giolito is 25 now and while much improved we still have to question if he can maintain pitching the way he has. Cease and Kopech may not ever reach the level Giolito has this year and if I were a betting man i'd say they wont reach that level next year .

[TaylorStSox]

23 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Those three all become free following the 2023 season. It's a huge deal. They have to do, at the very least, enough to give them a chance next year.

2023.

[mqr]

35 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

No.  No they should not.  Collins, sure.  Why not.  Zero reason to call up Robert and Madrigal right now.  Would be idiotic.  

We're well past the point of no return. 

[Chicago White Sox]

3 hours ago, raBBit said:

I am almost hoping Charlotte doesn't make the playoffs. We need to see Collins ASAP. No reason to trout out this trash any longer. 

100% agree on Collins.  The Sox need to see if he can fill a legit role next year or if he’s going to more of a depth piece.

[TaylorStSox]

3 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

Then why in the hell did they call up Moncada, Lopez and Giolito in August 2017? Then why did they call up Kopech around this time last year? 

Using that logic, none of those players should have been called up until Memorial Day 2018, as their clocks had already started. 

Probably because not all of these players are going to develop and advance in a linear fashion. They won't all peak at the same time. They won't all have sustained success at the same time. They won't all be together at the same time. 

[Chicago White Sox]

3 hours ago, Thad Bosley said:

I think the argument had merit maybe six weeks or so ago.  But with the clock ticking, and with only 42 games left in this season, it doesn't appear it would be worth it to call them up at this point and forego that full year of control down the road.  

Exactly.  IMO, August 1st was the drop dead date and even that was debatable if it made sense.  And while Hahn was most definitely spinning in that recent podcast, both Madrigal & Robert have played a ton more baseball this year than ever have and fatigue is probably going to sink in soon.  Not sure this is the optimal time to expose them to major league pitching.

[Timmy U]

3 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

Then why in the hell did they call up Moncada, Lopez and Giolito in August 2017? Then why did they call up Kopech around this time last year? 

Using that logic, none of those players should have been called up until Memorial Day 2018, as their clocks had already started. 

3 of those 4 guys had already had at least a month of service time, so I imagine they didn't want t wait until June.  Also, it appears the Sox have a different opinion on the acclimation of SP's than they do position players, bringing up Kopech and Cease, while leaving Eloy and Robert down. 

For sure, Collins has got to be coming up after rosters expand.  He'll be 25 next year, time to see what you've got.

[Chisoxmb35]

On 8/16/2019 at 11:25 AM, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I don't see TX letting him go cheaply since he is still 24 with an upside of 40-50 HR's. Plus he only has 2 years remaining till FA so unless he comes a lot cheaper than I think I don't see it. Also supposedly not a good fielder.

40-50 homer potential? What?

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

21 hours ago, Chisoxmb35 said:

40-50 homer potential? What?

The guy has all kinds of power . I did say upside, doesn't take much to go from 25 to 40 if you find your swing. Look at Yelich.

I swear some of you guys couldn't find your nose in the dark. I don't even understand why this needs explaining.

 

 

Edited August 18, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[caulfield12]

7 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

The guy has all kinds of power . I did say upside, doesn't take much to go from 25 to 40 if you find your awing. Look at Yelich.

I swear some of you guys couldn't find your nose in the dark. I don't even understand why this needs explaining.

 

 

The problem is envisioning Steverson as the one to unlock it...maybe the assistant or new analytics-driven guys.

[Jack Parkman]

On 8/16/2019 at 2:41 PM, TaylorStSox said:

Probably because not all of these players are going to develop and advance in a linear fashion. They won't all peak at the same time. They won't all have sustained success at the same time. They won't all be together at the same time. 

If that's the case, this rebuild is doomed. The goal is to have as many of these guys performing at as high of a level as possible simultaneously. That should be the goal now. Playing silly service time games with Robert and Madrigal is counterproductive. The only clock that matters at this point is the one on Giolito, Moncada and Lopez. The goal should be maximizing that clock. 

Edited August 18, 2019 by Jack Parkman

[TaylorStSox]

42 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

If that's the case, this rebuild is doomed. The goal is to have as many of these guys performing at as high of a level as possible simultaneously. That should be the goal now. Playing silly service time games with Robert and Madrigal is counterproductive. The only clock that matters at this point is the one on Giolito, Moncada and Lopez. The goal should be maximizing that clock. 

The goal is to continue to have waves of prospects develop so the team can sustain success for an extended period of time. In order for them to get into a position to execute it, they had to tear it down. The 3 guys you mentioned were the first wave. The second wave will be Kopech, Cease, Robert, Collins and Madrigal. The wave after will be guys like Vaughn, Walker and Sheets, and so on and so on. Not every wave of players is going to peak at the same time. 

 

They should be good next year. They should be real good the year after. Hopefully they can continue to incorporate waves of players to stay real good for a while. Part of doing that is "playing games with service time." 

Edited August 18, 2019 by TaylorStSox