Steve Stone with a dose of reality for Sox fans

[ptatc]

11 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

While this is only year 3 of the "Official rebuild", this is year 7 of being below .500 and year 11 missing the playoffs. 

The Astros were under .500 for 6 consecutive years and had a 9 year playoff drought during their rebuild.

The Cubs were only below .500 for 5 years, and their playoff drought was only 6.

True. However I think most people will agree that signing mid level veterans to fill in around a mediocre core is a recipe for mediocrity  where they get no top flight draft picks and no high end FA.

Do you think that this was the plan the FO thought would take them to the World Series?

[greg775]

Don't jump on Stoney. It's just twitter. No big deal. I'm not offended. I'm one of the rare fans totally against the rebuild and tanking. I feel tanking is un-American. In organized sports you try to win, always. This tank crap is another example of the bizarre world we have now. (I'd add my opinion of the political landscape here but that's a no no).

But I'm not offended by Stoney and I'm anti-tank to begin with. I feel excited I get to see Eloy and Moncada and Robert play ball. WOW. However I must admit all the injuries have me wondering. Also I'm mad because (if Eloy was healthy) I think we have a core of 5 or so very good players who should be able to win this horsecrap division if our front office would make smart free agent acquisitions, not stiffs.

At any rate, if Cease and Kopech are healthy, and the front office does its job, we should win next year. (Yes Robert and Madrigal should be withi the team and Burger if he's healthy). I don't really care what Stoney's take is. I love Stoney and that's that.

[Moan4Yoan]

2 hours ago, ptatc said:

True. However I think most people will agree that signing mid level veterans to fill in around a mediocre core is a recipe for mediocrity  where they get no top flight draft picks and no high end FA.

Do you think that this was the plan the FO thought would take them to the World Series?

Yes, because it worked once in 2005.

[ptatc]

11 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

Yes, because it worked once in 2005.

I dont think it was their decision, personally. 

[Balta1701]

2 hours ago, ptatc said:

True. However I think most people will agree that signing mid level veterans to fill in around a mediocre core is a recipe for mediocrity  where they get no top flight draft picks and no high end FA.

Do you think that this was the plan the FO thought would take them to the World Series?

Yes. And now it's time to see progress.

When they made their trades, I said based on the talent they got, in 2019 they should be in the wild card discussion, maybe even winning it. 2018 was such a complete debacle organization-wide that it was a full year setback. Injuries to 1/2 of our top prospects, other guys just falling apart, lack of progress.

This year we've seen the progress we were supposed to see in 2018, but at least we're seeing it. In 2020 we need to take the next step and at least be in the wild card discussion. They have all the talent ready they could ask for and their payroll is so low they could go buy anything they want. We're out of excuses next year.

This team has been noncompetitive for 7 full seasons, they haven't played a post-trade-deadline game that mattered since 2012 (even if RH's fantasies said they were). There are 2 possible end results of this - either the White Sox fanbase is going to be frustrated or the White Sox fanbase is going to give up and stop caring. They should consider themselves lucky that anyone cares any more after this - especially after they spent the offseason repeatedly lying to, insulting, and disrespecting the people who pay their bills. 

So fine, I'm a white sox fan and I've been patient. I'm not mad about a 7 game losing streak and the team being about 10 games below .500 because that's where I expected them to be this year, and there has been some progress. But I've been more patient than any Astros fan or Cubs fan had to be. In 2020 I want watchable, competitive games in September.  Injury, guys being young - no longer an excuse. 

[chitownsportsfan]

8 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Yes. And now it's time to see progress.

When they made their trades, I said based on the talent they got, in 2019 they should be in the wild card discussion, maybe even winning it. 2018 was such a complete debacle organization-wide that it was a full year setback. Injuries to 1/2 of our top prospects, other guys just falling apart, lack of progress.

This year we've seen the progress we were supposed to see in 2018, but at least we're seeing it. In 2020 we need to take the next step and at least be in the wild card discussion. They have all the talent ready they could ask for and their payroll is so low they could go buy anything they want. We're out of excuses next year.

This team has been noncompetitive for 7 full seasons, they haven't played a post-trade-deadline game that mattered since 2012 (even if RH's fantasies said they were). There are 2 possible end results of this - either the White Sox fanbase is going to be frustrated or the White Sox fanbase is going to give up and stop caring. They should consider themselves lucky that anyone cares any more after this - especially after they spent the offseason repeatedly lying to, insulting, and disrespecting the people who pay their bills. 

So fine, I'm a white sox fan and I've been patient. I'm not mad about a 7 game losing streak and the team being about 10 games below .500 because that's where I expected them to be this year, and there has been some progress. But I've been more patient than any Astros fan or Cubs fan had to be. In 2020 I want watchable, competitive games in September.  Injury, guys being young - no longer an excuse. 

 

Well when you lose about 8 WAR in SP and then another 5-6 in the failed whaling front that's what happens.  I mean you hate to see it but you could see it coming after the offseason and all the injuries to the rotation.  You're smart enough to know (and I admit to getting sucked in at times) that with this rotation and that RD things were going to go south at some point.

They got one more chance to get it right this offseason.  Hope in one hand shit in the other we'll see what happens at least the kids are alright when they are healthy.

Edited July 20, 2019 by chitownsportsfan

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Well when you lose about 8 WAR in SP and then another 5-6 in the failed whaling front that's what happens.  I mean you hate to see it but you could see it coming after the offseason and all the injuries to the rotation.  You're smart enough to know (and I admit to getting sucked in at times) that with this rotation and that RD things were going to go south at some point.

They got one more chance to get it right this offseason.  Hope in one hand shit in the other we'll see what happens at least the kids are alright when they are healthy.

At the big league level...this team has not had an unusual number of injuries in 2019. The Yankees have had guys spend more than twice as much time on the IL as us, and somehow they're in first place. The White Sox are right in the middle of the pack for IL usage this year. If the number of injuries the White Sox have had in 2019 sabotages you...you were this bad in the first place. 

Assuming they sign a few pitchers and fix little Ricky's bullpen debacle, there will be 10+ new players on this roster by next May. That means some of the guys currently on the roster will shift back to being backups, creating depth. That's how it should work. 

We don't have that depth this year because 2018 at the minor league level was so bad that it demolished any potential plans we could have had. So now we have Tilson as a starter and Cordell and Tilson and Engel all on the roster because of a couple injuries, when one or two of them could be adequate backups. That's what 2018 did to us - the roster isn't there yet.

Next year...the excuses run out.

[Lip Man 1]

4 hours ago, NWINFan said:

I agree with this in total. And the Stone rant is typical of this organization. The team stinks and the organization lashes out at the fans. He is the last person to lecture me on anything. Don't tell me I have to like it when the team loses another game 10-1 or drops four in a row to one of the worst teams in baseball.

What do the White Sox lead the league in? Blaming fans when things go wrong. The Adams. Yonder. Shark. What a bunch of great players. Where did they come from?

I've met locusts with better personalities than Steve Stone. 

The words can't describe how disgusting this condescending crap is. 

Big changes should have been made 10 years ago. They weren't. That is why you're in this stupid rebuild. You had no plan and now you stink.

Hey, Steve: You don't like the fans here? Get a gig in another major league city. I won't miss this crap.

Did Reinsdorf tell him to do this? Sounds like it. It's a miracle anyone goes out to the ball park. I know I don't have plans of going there. 

 

The organization has always had a "bunker mentality" in my opinion as well as a streak of arrogance, "WE know what we are doing. We're smarter than you..."

From Kenny and his inane comments over the years (the latest attacking fans who thought the Sox were "cheap" after only coming up 50 million short on Machado) to Cooper blasting fans on the radio now to Stone. Frankly I was surprised he'd do this, I just don't see the need to come across like he did and then to "double down" on it today.

Again new ownership / front office is badly needed with this ossified organization, regardless of if the rebuild is successful or not. There is an old saying in the business world, "the customer is ALWAYS right" (even if in reality they aren't but you don't do/say anything to drive them away...)

[caulfield12]

John McDonough, for example, would never say or even think some of the dumb things the likes of KW, Cooper and Stone have uttered.

They better hope Luis Robert turns out to be the best thing since sliced bread or Mike Trout.  

You just get the feeling those core prospects are going to have to carry the water and outperform...because expecting ownership and the front office to outperform other organizations is highly unlikely.

If they do go out and sign Cole, then I’ll actually believe they are capable of real change.

[NWINFan]

6 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

The organization has always had a "bunker mentality" in my opinion as well as a streak of arrogance, "WE know what we are doing. We're smarter than you..."

From Kenny and his inane comments over the years (the latest attacking fans who thought the Sox were "cheap" after only coming up 50 million short on Machado) to Cooper blasting fans on the radio now to Stone. Frankly I was surprised he'd do this, I just don't see the need to come across like he did and then to "double down" on it today.

Again new ownership / front office is badly needed with this ossified organization, regardless of if the rebuild is successful or not. There is an old saying in the business world, "the customer is ALWAYS right" (even if in reality they aren't but you don't do/say anything to drive them away...)

The streak of arrogance runs deep. The strong feeling of self-entitlement runs just as deep. The team asks for patience and wants the fans to have faith in the rebuild. It is hard to have faith when someone from the organization shoots off his arrogant and stupid mouth like this.

For me there is one simple solution: the mute button.

[poppysox]

Jerry is 83 years old and his story of boyhood love of baseball has been retold often.  After owning a major league club for 40 years I refuse to believe he doesn't care about winning.  He knows that his era can end any day and the tomorrows are limited.  I think he will go for it this off season.  My gripe with JR is his extreme loyalty to those he perceives as loyal gets in the way of good people decisions.

[caulfield12]

4 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Jerry is 83 years old and his story of boyhood love of baseball has been retold often.  After owning a major league club for 40 years I refuse to believe he doesn't care about winning.  He knows that his era can end any day and the tomorrows are limited.  I think he will go for it this off season.  My gripe with JR is his extreme loyalty to those he perceives as loyal gets in the way of good people decisions.

At the same time, we weren’t that loyal to LaRussa, Leyland, Dombrowski, Kim Ng, Terry Francona...

[poppysox]

31 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

At the same time, we weren’t that loyal to LaRussa, Leyland, Dombrowski, Kim Ng, Terry Francona...

He really bought into Hawk and his ideas.  JR still refers to the LaRussa breakup as his biggest mistake I believe.

[NWINFan]

1 hour ago, poppysox said:

Jerry is 83 years old and his story of boyhood love of baseball has been retold often.  After owning a major league club for 40 years I refuse to believe he doesn't care about winning.  He knows that his era can end any day and the tomorrows are limited.  I think he will go for it this off season.  My gripe with JR is his extreme loyalty to those he perceives as loyal gets in the way of good people decisions.

It is easy to take shots at Reinsdorf, but the fact is it is hard to know what makes him tick. He has never been good at managing the media, and he can tick off fans at times. Right now he is reclusive and doesn't make direct public comments. Many times he uses the broadcast people to voice an opinion. I don't know if the Stone tweet was an example of this, but it 's possible. Regardless it was another example of bad PR and lousy media management.

I have no idea what the plans for the offseason are. I do know this is no normal rebuild, and a great deal is at stake. If the rebuild fails, it will go far beyond fans being pissed off. There won't be much left to the franchise, and the house will crumble.

 

[poppysox]

3 minutes ago, NWINFan said:

It is easy to take shots at Reinsdorf, but the fact is it is hard to know what makes him tick. He has never been good at managing the media, and he can tick off fans at times. Right now he is reclusive and doesn't make direct public comments. Many times he uses the broadcast people to voice an opinion. I don't know if the Stone tweet was an example of this, but it 's possible. Regardless it was another example of bad PR and lousy media management.

I have no idea what the plans for the offseason are. I do know this is no normal rebuild, and a great deal is at stake. If the rebuild fails, it will go far beyond fans being pissed off. There won't be much left to the franchise, and the house will crumble.

 

You are right that a failure of this rebuild would due damage that would really damage the franchise beyond repair.  I don't think that will happen.  The core of players already in the system is the best in my lifetime with the financial flexibility to get any FA they need to plug the holes.  I expect a good long run of excellent teams starting 2020.

[Lip Man 1]

4 hours ago, poppysox said:

He really bought into Hawk and his ideas.  JR still refers to the LaRussa breakup as his biggest mistake I believe.

"Eddie and I would talk to Hawk and (Don) Drysdale at length, and Hawk more so, to identify problems in the organization, we were still neophytes in this business and we were impressed with the way Hawk pointed out our problems. [GM] wasn't something he really wanted him to do, but we urged him to help us out. The mistake was that when you go to a doctor who diagnoses open-heart surgery, you don't have him do the surgery because he diagnosed the problem, you get a heart surgeon. Just because Hawk was able to diagnose our problems did not mean he could solve them. It was a terrible position to put him in, and a year later, he said he wanted out." – Jerry Reinsdorf to the Chicago Tribune’s Melissa Issacson. May 28, 2004.

“I never should have allowed Tony to be fired. I’ve often said that was the biggest mistake I’ve ever made. I knew it was wrong. I knew it was a mistake. And I let it happen anyway.” - Jerry Reinsdorf to author Rob Rains for his book, "Tony LaRussa: Man On a Mission."

 

Edited July 20, 2019 by Lip Man 1

[Thad Bosley]

25 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

"Eddie and I would talk to Hawk and (Don) Drysdale at length, and Hawk more so, to identify problems in the organization, we were still neophytes in this business and we were impressed with the way Hawk pointed out our problems. [GM] wasn't something he really wanted him to do, but we urged him to help us out. The mistake was that when you go to a doctor who diagnoses open-heart surgery, you don't have him do the surgery because he diagnosed the problem, you get a heart surgeon. Just because Hawk was able to diagnose our problems did not mean he could solve them. It was a terrible position to put him in, and a year later, he said he wanted out." – Jerry Reinsdorf to the Chicago Tribune’s Melissa Issacson. May 28, 2004.

“I never should have allowed Tony to be fired. I’ve often said that was the biggest mistake I’ve ever made. I knew it was wrong. I knew it was a mistake. And I let it happen anyway.” - Jerry Reinsdorf to author Rob Rains for his book, "Tony LaRussa: Man On a Mission."

 

Jerry Reinsdorf’s powers of self-assessment are severely lacking if he thinks letting go of Tony LaRussa is the “biggest mistake” of his time as owner of the Sox.   That is way down on the list of franchise-crippling mistakes he’s made over the last four decades.   

[wrathofhahn]

13 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Yes. And now it's time to see progress.

When they made their trades, I said based on the talent they got, in 2019 they should be in the wild card discussion, maybe even winning it. 2018 was such a complete debacle organization-wide that it was a full year setback. Injuries to 1/2 of our top prospects, other guys just falling apart, lack of progress.

This year we've seen the progress we were supposed to see in 2018, but at least we're seeing it. In 2020 we need to take the next step and at least be in the wild card discussion. They have all the talent ready they could ask for and their payroll is so low they could go buy anything they want. We're out of excuses next year.

This team has been noncompetitive for 7 full seasons, they haven't played a post-trade-deadline game that mattered since 2012 (even if RH's fantasies said they were). There are 2 possible end results of this - either the White Sox fanbase is going to be frustrated or the White Sox fanbase is going to give up and stop caring. They should consider themselves lucky that anyone cares any more after this - especially after they spent the offseason repeatedly lying to, insulting, and disrespecting the people who pay their bills. 

So fine, I'm a white sox fan and I've been patient. I'm not mad about a 7 game losing streak and the team being about 10 games below .500 because that's where I expected them to be this year, and there has been some progress. But I've been more patient than any Astros fan or Cubs fan had to be. In 2020 I want watchable, competitive games in September.  Injury, guys being young - no longer an excuse. 

Past you was wildly optimistic which is why current you is so disappointed. I am not disappointed with the fact the sox decided rebuild but I am disappointed with the moves we didn't make. I looked at the Archer trade and wondered why didn't we move Rodon for that kind of return? I was disappointed we weren't interested in Pham. I was disappointed we spent all our offseason trying to get Machado and Harper instead of signing guys to one year deals instead bringing stiffs like Jay and Alonso.

One thing that has kind of been apparent is the lack of a clear direction. We are sort of half in half out. It's cost us some opportunities I think to move guys like Abreu and Rodon who should have been moved if they were more realistic about their timeline it probably also cost us two years of control on Kopech too.

In other words they have made a ton of what I think are mistakes they've made a ton of moves I really liked too and I was surprised with the return the thing is even had they done everything I wanted that I was right on (I won't mention the things where I was wrong ) and they got better then expected returns this team was never going to be competitive this year. It was always about 2020 at the earliest.

Edited July 20, 2019 by wrathofhahn

[SonofaRoache]

11 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

John McDonough, for example, would never say or even think some of the dumb things the likes of KW, Cooper and Stone have uttered.

They better hope Luis Robert turns out to be the best thing since sliced bread or Mike Trout.  

You just get the feeling those core prospects are going to have to carry the water and outperform...because expecting ownership and the front office to outperform other organizations is highly unlikely.

If they do go out and sign Cole, then I’ll actually believe they are capable of real change.

I'd have to wear shades to hide the shock in my eyes if we sign Cole. 

[kitekrazy]

The LaRussa thing is so hindsight.

[chitownsportsfan]

7 minutes ago, kitekrazy said:

The LaRussa thing is so hindsight.

Sox fans seem to optimistically relay the story to indicate JR is willing to learn from mistakes.   I'm not so sure that's the takeaway.  The takeaway for me is that JR likes to work with people he personally likes, including Hawk.  JR is a great businessman obviously but in business if you only work with people you like you're seriously limiting yourself.

[Lip Man 1]

ML: Over the years you’d read or hear stories from time to time about you returning to the Sox as field manager. Were you ever close to coming back at any point? 

TLR: “There was one chance and it almost happened because we were getting new ownership in Oakland. Mr. Haas had announced he was going to sell the team; this was before his health problems started. In the winter of 1994, before spring training in 1995, I thought I was going to manage the Red Sox. But Mr. Haas asked me to lunch and wondered if I would stay one more season. I had also looked at Baltimore as a possible job because my preference was to stay in the American League. The next year I left Oakland and there was some discussion with the White Sox. I had talked with Ron Schueler, who was the Sox G.M. and who was my pitching coach with the Sox in 1981 and who I worked with in Oakland. The Sox, though, decided that Terry Bevington was the right man for the opening and gave him the job.” 

“Soon after that, Walt Jocketty called me. He had gone to St. Louis after the 1995 season and took over as G.M. I talked to “Sparky” Anderson and he told me that one time I should manage in the National League because the situations were so different from the A.L. I thought it over and when St. Louis offered me the job, I took it.” 

ML: You’ll go into the Hall of Fame this August as one of the all-time winningest managers.

Have you ever wondered what may have happened if you stayed with the Sox? I know Sox fans wonder how many championships you might have won had you stayed for 20 years or so. 

TLR: “Yes, I do, but more for entertainment, I don’t take a lot of time to look back in a serious manner. I just think you have to move on from the past, learn from it and go forward. I will occasionally tease Jerry (Reinsdorf) about it, though. I honestly think had I stayed with the White Sox for 30 years that the team would have won multiple world championships. I think that because we were so united. Everyone from the owners to the front office to the coaching staff was on the same page. Our minor league system was developing and we had good people in all areas.”

 

[caulfield12]

39 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

ML: Over the years you’d read or hear stories from time to time about you returning to the Sox as field manager. Were you ever close to coming back at any point? 

TLR: “There was one chance and it almost happened because we were getting new ownership in Oakland. Mr. Haas had announced he was going to sell the team; this was before his health problems started. In the winter of 1994, before spring training in 1995, I thought I was going to manage the Red Sox. But Mr. Haas asked me to lunch and wondered if I would stay one more season. I had also looked at Baltimore as a possible job because my preference was to stay in the American League. The next year I left Oakland and there was some discussion with the White Sox. I had talked with Ron Schueler, who was the Sox G.M. and who was my pitching coach with the Sox in 1981 and who I worked with in Oakland. The Sox, though, decided that Terry Bevington was the right man for the opening and gave him the job.” 

“Soon after that, Walt Jocketty called me. He had gone to St. Louis after the 1995 season and took over as G.M. I talked to “Sparky” Anderson and he told me that one time I should manage in the National League because the situations were so different from the A.L. I thought it over and when St. Louis offered me the job, I took it.” 

ML: You’ll go into the Hall of Fame this August as one of the all-time winningest managers.

Have you ever wondered what may have happened if you stayed with the Sox? I know Sox fans wonder how many championships you might have won had you stayed for 20 years or so. 

TLR: “Yes, I do, but more for entertainment, I don’t take a lot of time to look back in a serious manner. I just think you have to move on from the past, learn from it and go forward. I will occasionally tease Jerry (Reinsdorf) about it, though. I honestly think had I stayed with the White Sox for 30 years that the team would have won multiple world championships. I think that because we were so united. Everyone from the owners to the front office to the coaching staff was on the same page. Our minor league system was developing and we had good people in all areas.”

 

Don’t love LaRussa post-White Sox, but that last paragraph is fitting with this franchise’s history.  Almost always one step forward, two or three steps back.

[pcq]

16 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

John McDonough, for example, would never say or even think some of the dumb things the likes of KW, Cooper and Stone have uttered.

They better hope Luis Robert turns out to be the best thing since sliced bread or Mike Trout.  

You just get the feeling those core prospects are going to have to carry the water and outperform...because expecting ownership and the front office to outperform other organizations is highly unlikely.

If they do go out and sign Cole, then I’ll actually believe they are capable of real change.

Stone is a little soft in the head.  

[Moan4Yoan]

On 7/19/2019 at 5:34 PM, SonofaRoache said:

Stopped reading after a house takes 5 years to build. 

Yep, even mansions don’t take 5 years to build.  What a stupid analogy.