Steve Stone with a dose of reality for Sox fans

[Chicago White Sox]

30 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Caulfield and others:

Just wanted to clarify something and to make a suggestion. This is a legit suggestion...not trying to be flippant or snarky.

First, my idea of analytics is that they are a part of the game and should be but as stated they can't be the be all / end all. It is simply impossible to "predict" the literally millions of variables that happen in a game let alone a season. My biggest beef is the attitude of some (not all...some) that if one doesn't buy into it, like Moses receiving the Ten Commandments either said person is stupid, lazy or out of touch.

Also some of these stats are so irrelevant, so worthless that they aren't worth the time spent even trying to decipher them. Here's an extreme made up example:

Does anybody really care or does it make any difference to know what Mike Trout hits at home on Wednesday's in the 7th inning or later against left handed pitchers with a last name consisting of six letters or less? 

Seriously...who cares about some of these things because they make zero difference in the long run.

Analytics have a part in the game, scouts have a part in the game, the eye-test has a part in the game. Things that can't be fed into a computer have a part in the game. How hard does a kid work, how smart is the kid, does he take to instructions,is he a good teammate, does he take care of himself off the field.

Nellie Fox and Pete Rose would probably fail most if not all of today's benchmarks but the bottom line is they were terrific players and are both in the Hall of Fame. There has to be a balance.

----------

Now for the proposition, again this is a legit one. Since there is a segment who feel I'm detrimental to the site here's what I need to know. Let the Mods make the decision if you want.

If you think I'm not contributing, tell me and I'm gone.

Not kidding.

I won't take it personally and everyone will be happier.

I ask the courtesy though of someone letting me know in the next day or so. I was planning on starting something here at the site on Wednesday, August 1st. I don't want to start it then bail on it in a week or two weeks.

Basically now or never please.

But I will say one thing either way, if some think that by asking me to leave is going to stop the realistic anger and frustration that is being expressed on a daily basis, I don't think those folks are being realistic. Except for venting after another terrible performance which every fan has a right to do, I do not believe I have been outrageous or not courteous.

But in the end it's YOUR call folks. Hell make it a poll if you want closing on Wednesday morning August 1st. I'll abide by the results if someone doesn't want to do it on their own.

 

 

 

According to Fangraphs, Nellie Fox was worth 45 wins and Pete Rose was worth 80 wins.  See, analytics aren’t the enemy.

[Lip Man 1]

35 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

According to Fangraphs, Nellie Fox was worth 45 wins and Pete Rose was worth 80 wins.  See, analytics aren’t the enemy.

Who said they were? I stated that based on today Fox and Rose wouldn't even measure up to their "standards" so they'd never even get a chance. Yet somehow, someway those guys are in the Hall of Fame. See, analytics can't predict everything.

But back to my other point, waiting to hear what you and some other folks want me to do moving forward regarding the site since apparently I've the cause of all the negativity and don't know anything about today's game.

Like I said that was a serious offer and I'll follow it through if that's what the folks want.

 

[flavum]

Pete Rose is in the Hall of Fame? Sports radio is going to blow up.

[Moan4Yoan]

19 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Who said they were? I stated that based on today Fox and Rose wouldn't even measure up to their "standards" so they'd never even get a chance. Yet somehow, someway those guys are in the Hall of Fame. See, analytics can't predict everything.

But back to my other point, waiting to hear what you and some other folks want me to do moving forward regarding the site since apparently I've the cause of all the negativity and don't know anything about today's game.

Like I said that was a serious offer and I'll follow it through if that's what the folks want.

 

Baseball-Reference.com.  Rose is ranked 40th in overall career WAR and he WOULD BE in the Hall of Fame if it was solely based on WAR.  See below...

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_bat_career.shtml

Also, Nellie Fox is rated 203rd in overall career WAR and there are other Hall of Famers in that same range (Ralph Kiner at #202 and Jim Rice at #212).

Edited July 30, 2019 by Moan4Yoan

[harkness99]

8 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

Big fan of stoney.  Not sure how you could not like him.  

What is so great about him?

 

[Chicago White Sox]

24 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Who said they were? I stated that based on today Fox and Rose wouldn't even measure up to their "standards" so they'd never even get a chance. Yet somehow, someway those guys are in the Hall of Fame. See, analytics can't predict everything.

But back to my other point, waiting to hear what you and some other folks want me to do moving forward regarding the site since apparently I've the cause of all the negativity and don't know anything about today's game.

Like I said that was a serious offer and I'll follow it through if that's what the folks want.

 

I’m not sure I follow your first paragraph.

Also, I never said anything about you specifically.  And I don’t want anyone to leave the site (except OneDog...RIP), I just want people to tone it down with the non-stop whining & overreacting.

[caulfield12]

Dear Lip Man:

I feel your pain.

Once the White Sox are in your blood, it's permanent.

I was suspended for the first three months of the season and my life was in many ways actually better off.  I read more, watched movies and t.v. shows, spent more time with my family.

I started following the Padres and contributing at Gaslamp Ball, just because baseball has been with me my entire life and even when I am not following the White Sox closely, I'll follow the minors or the draft or the College World Series or even watch a Little League game.    It was a coping mechanism, just like the only way I could tolerate the 2013-2019 period of White Sox baseball was to start following the Royals (I lived there in KC from 1997-2007) because I knew they were going somewhere eventually, as they played such an exciting type of baseball (like the Cardinals and Royals in the mid 1980's)...one that almost no longer exists today, and is inarguably the exact opposite of today's three outcome game you're constantly referring to.

I love to watch the rookies especially, in the past....Puig in 2013 (that's when we started to be terrible and I had to find other aspects of the game besides getting upset about Adam Dunn, Kenny Williams or Robin Ventura), the Royals, fantasy baseball for most of this season.  I've enjoyed watching Tatis, Jr., play very much....in some morbid way, I think it was bmaggs that said it, that was supposed to be OUR White Sox.   Tatis, Jr. and Machado...the #1 or #2 farm system in baseball overflowing with pitching talent (what COULD have been had we doubled down in the Luis Robert signing year and spent another $25-30 million), what will likely to be the addition of a frontline starting pitcher utilizing the depth of their minor league prospects from 1-50.

Every White Sox fan should have a place here.  We've all struggled with how to be "ideal Sox fans" in this era...and it has taken a toll, in terms of arguing about how a fan should act or behave.   Obviously, right now, there's a mix of optimism and negativity with the 50% in the realistic/pragmatic middle, although that 50% (the silent majority) often just lurks or isn't as vocal or tenable because a reasonable position isn't as tenable on an online message board.

Your passion for White Sox history and especially the decade of the 1950's/60's/70's is (or at least should be) always welcome, and I've enjoyed reading your thoughts and picking up things from archived interviews of the past.   Baseball, if it's nothing else (remember, the average fan today who ranks baseball their favorite sport is 57), is about shared memories with our fathers and families, playing catch in the backyard and "going to the big city" and sitting there is the stands at places like Old Comiskey or Wrigley Field and keeping score by hand...in the age fifteen years before cell phones started to take over our lives, just the sights and sounds and smells, the unforgettable crack of the ball off the bat of a great player that just had a different tone or of a rising fastball audibly sizzling through the afternoon sunlight.

In the end, it's a game.  It's neither life nor death, there are bigger issues in the world that we can no longer talk about in a civil fashion without both sides demonizing the other...I've always said the one thing about the White Sox I was proudest of was that fans came from all walks of life, all socio-economic groups and we had diverse teams and diverse fans as well, we were certainly not a typical Wrigley yuppie crowd there to oggle "babes in the stands" while drinking our Buds with our fraternity friends, but actually went to the park faithfully because of our team and the game played in front of us.

I'm sticking with it because I believe in the dedication to his craft of Madrigal (who's as close as we're ever going to get to Nellie Fox), the raw talent of Luis Robert...no matter what I think or feel about the front office, it's not going to change my allegiance to the name on the front of the jersey, even as the names on the back ceaselessly change over the decades.

All we can do is be ourselves, write what we feel...and realize no matter what, there's going to be a lot of people that might not like what we write, how we write...what we write about it, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't express ourselves as long as it does no harm to others.   You need tough skin around here, and it's hard not to fight back when insulted or ridiculed or fill-in-the-verb (I did it again on Sunday after someone was snarky).    Once upon a time, there was a Chisox.com board about 15 years ago with NCORGBL (my bigger enemy) and SAT46...who was a fan of White Sox history and the names of the past, just like yourself.   You remind me of a much saner version of him...but reading those names and hearing those stories of the past or this day in Sox history always brought a smile to my face. 

Edited July 30, 2019 by caulfield12

[ChiSox59]

3 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

I think he's the best analyst in the game. I just don't understand what is gained by antagonizing a fan base that already is very angry and resentful. Doesn't make sense to me for the franchise or from a business standpoint.

Sorry my understanding isn't as well versed as yours, I see the game differently, I don't believe analytics are the be all / end all and I think the three outcome approach is ruining the game. I also don't believe in giving guys who clearly can't cut it chance after chance after chance to embarrass themselves and the team.

Feel free to ignore my posts if they aren't worth reading to you, I certainly won't mind and no I'm not trying to be snarky... when I see guys like Covey can't even make it out of the first inning not once but twice, when I see guys like Rondon and Sanchez butcher double plays that Aparicio and Fox, Guillen and Cora could do in their sleep, yea I'm going to get pissed and I'm going to vent.

I'm a die hard Sox fan who is embarrassed at what this franchise has become in the past dozen years. Shame on me, I guess.

If you were in charge, every single guy would be cut before he figured it out. You call for DFAing or cutting players with options legitimately on a daily basis. You lack fundamental knowledge of simple roster management and refuse to learn. 

I know you’re a fan of the Sox and view things in a more old school lens. That’s all fine and dandy, and I am sure we would get along great over a beer and Sox game. But, IMO, you routinely bring down the quality of this board with your unwillingness to adapt to the way the game is played today, and more importantly, inability to comprehend how a roster is managed. 

[caulfield12]

45 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

If you were in charge, every single guy would be cut before he figured it out. You call for DFAing or cutting players with options legitimately on a daily basis. You lack fundamental knowledge of simple roster management and refuse to learn. 

I know you’re a fan of the Sox and view things in a more old school lens. That’s all fine and dandy, and I am sure we would get along great over a beer and Sox game. But, IMO, you routinely bring down the quality of this board with your unwillingness to adapt to the way the game is played today, and more importantly, inability to comprehend how a roster is managed. 

Well, might that have something to do with the fact that we haven't seen a well-managed Sox roster since the 2012 season...where we had to use something like 13 rookies and were leading the Tigers until the final two weeks  of the season?

I actually haven't noticed him doing this until very recently...and I think it's human nature to be frustrated, what's Covey's record with the Sox, something like 6 and 27 with a 6+ ERA in his Sox career...that's making Danny Wright look like Carl Hubbell.  And he was exactly right, it was the end of the line for Dylan, at least until September.

As far as adapting to the way the game's being played today, are the Sox doing that?  Don Cooper?  Renteria?   I think it's fair to say that because it's an ever- shifting game....one decade, it's OPS (not even scouting college hitters in person at times) that started with Moneyball, then, it's pitch framing, or shifting...not it's all about launch angle and exit velocity and pitchers throwing predominantly fastballs and sliders.   And it's not as if 3 outcome hitters like Adam Dunn or Jim Thome didn't exist in the past, it just seems that every team has 3-5 guys like that now instead of just 1-2.   Every team's searching for an edge...now it's superpens, openers, pulling starting pitchers before the 3rd time through the line-up.

Not a matter of better...and for many fans, it's not.   There will always be traditionalists who hearken back to the glory days of baseballs in the 1950's through the 70's and hardly recognize the same sport anymore.  Let's not forget, the average age of those whose favorite sport is baseball is 57 years old now.   That means at the very least that they grew up with the game as it was played in the late 60's, 70's and early to mid 80's.

Edited July 30, 2019 by caulfield12

[Thad Bosley]

2 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Caulfield and others:

Just wanted to clarify something and to make a suggestion. This is a legit suggestion...not trying to be flippant or snarky.

First, my idea of analytics is that they are a part of the game and should be but as stated they can't be the be all / end all. It is simply impossible to "predict" the literally millions of variables that happen in a game let alone a season. My biggest beef is the attitude of some (not all...some) that if one doesn't buy into it, like Moses receiving the Ten Commandments either said person is stupid, lazy or out of touch.

Also some of these stats are so irrelevant, so worthless that they aren't worth the time spent even trying to decipher them. Here's an extreme made up example:

Does anybody really care or does it make any difference to know what Mike Trout hits at home on Wednesday's in the 7th inning or later against left handed pitchers with a last name consisting of six letters or less? 

Seriously...who cares about some of these things because they make zero difference in the long run.

Analytics have a part in the game, scouts have a part in the game, the eye-test has a part in the game. Things that can't be fed into a computer have a part in the game. How hard does a kid work, how smart is the kid, does he take to instructions,is he a good teammate, does he take care of himself off the field.

Nellie Fox and Pete Rose would probably fail most if not all of today's benchmarks but the bottom line is they were terrific players and are both in the Hall of Fame. There has to be a balance.

----------

Now for the proposition, again this is a legit one. Since there is a segment who feel I'm detrimental to the site here's what I need to know. Let the Mods make the decision if you want.

If you think I'm not contributing, tell me and I'm gone.

Not kidding.

I won't take it personally and everyone will be happier.

I ask the courtesy though of someone letting me know in the next day or so. I was planning on starting something here at the site on Thursday, August 1st. I don't want to start it then bail on it in a week or two weeks.

Basically now or never please.

But I will say one thing either way, if some think that by asking me to leave is going to stop the realistic anger and frustration that is being expressed on a daily basis, I don't think those folks are being realistic. Except for venting after another terrible performance which every fan has a right to do, I do not believe I have been outrageous or not courteous.

But in the end it's YOUR call folks. Hell make it a poll if you want closing on Wednesday morning August 1st. I'll abide by the results if someone doesn't want to do it on their own.

 

 

 

You are easily one of the best posters on this site.  Really hope you stay and continue to share your informed point of view and the wonderful, historical perspective you provide.  

[Lip Man 1]

2 hours ago, flavum said:

Pete Rose is in the Hall of Fame? Sports radio is going to blow up.

His equipment is and for all intents and purposes he is as well given his statistical numbers.

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, ChiSox59 said:

If you were in charge, every single guy would be cut before he figured it out. You call for DFAing or cutting players with options legitimately on a daily basis. You lack fundamental knowledge of simple roster management and refuse to learn. 

I know you’re a fan of the Sox and view things in a more old school lens. That’s all fine and dandy, and I am sure we would get along great over a beer and Sox game. But, IMO, you routinely bring down the quality of this board with your unwillingness to adapt to the way the game is played today, and more importantly, inability to comprehend how a roster is managed. 

Fair enough. So the question remains do you want me gone or not, your call, since you feel I bring this board down because I won't view the game the way you do (which you obviously feel is the correct way). Just let me know.

Oh by the way I don't feel I need to "understand" roster management when the individuals involved basically have no future and have shown themselves incapable of producing at the big league level. How much understanding do you need to figure out when a guy has had multiple chances and failed everytime that he's not going to make it? Why delay the inevitable? Clear the deadwood and give someone else a chance.

Please give me some credit, I get about "options" but you don't need to be Einstein to see guys like Covey, Tilson, Engle, Minaya, Rondon, Fulmer, Ruiz, Viera (sorry about the spelling) and many others just don't have it and personally I think you see the same thing. They could have 100 options and the results are still going to be the very same. Ever ask yourself why those guys are being sent up and down like yo'yo's or why when the Sox DFA a guy usually there are zero takers? Maybe I simply don't have unlimited patience and you do.

I'll be waiting for your answer to my question.

Edited July 30, 2019 by Lip Man 1

[Lip Man 1]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

Well, might that have something to do with the fact that we haven't seen a well-managed Sox roster since the 2012 season...where we had to use something like 13 rookies and were leading the Tigers until the final two weeks  of the season?

I actually haven't noticed him doing this until very recently...and I think it's human nature to be frustrated, what's Covey's record with the Sox, something like 6 and 27 with a 6+ ERA in his Sox career...that's making Danny Wright look like Carl Hubbell.  And he was exactly right, it was the end of the line for Dylan, at least until September.

As far as adapting to the way the game's being played today, are the Sox doing that?  Don Cooper?  Renteria?   I think it's fair to say that because it's an ever- shifting game....one decade, it's OPS (not even scouting college hitters in person at times) that started with Moneyball, then, it's pitch framing, or shifting...not it's all about launch angle and exit velocity and pitchers throwing predominantly fastballs and sliders.   And it's not as if 3 outcome hitters like Adam Dunn or Jim Thome didn't exist in the past, it just seems that every team has 3-5 guys like that now instead of just 1-2.   Every team's searching for an edge...now it's superpens, openers, pulling starting pitchers before the 3rd time through the line-up.

Not a matter of better...and for many fans, it's not.   There will always be traditionalists who hearken back to the glory days of baseballs in the 1950's through the 70's and hardly recognize the same sport anymore.  Let's not forget, the average age of those whose favorite sport is baseball is 57 years old now.   That means at the very least that they grew up with the game as it was played in the late 60's, 70's and early to mid 80's.

Well thought out post. I'd suggest though it's not just fans. Tom Verducci has written stories in Sports Illustrated warning where baseball is headed. Just a few days ago CBS Sportsline (I think) had a story saying where the majority of teams TV ratings are down including big market clubs like the Yankees, Dodgers and Phillies. I think the story said 18 teams ratings are down. (Sox are up significantly by the way.) USA Today has also written stories about how baseball is becoming boring, turning off fans and leading to decreased attendance.

It's becoming a real issue for the sport like it or not, and baseball is going to have to address it sooner or later. Perhaps that's why they have started talking about things like "no shifts" and next year will have the three batter minimum rule for relief pitchers to start to limit specialization (i.e. a pitcher is going to have to start getting hitters out regardless of if they hit left handed, right handed or between their legs).

Sabermetric analysis is having unintended consequences for the game and correction is needed the fans are speaking by not watching or going to the ballpark.

Edited July 30, 2019 by Lip Man 1

[ChiSox59]

5 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Fair enough. So the question remains do you want me gone or not, your call, since you feel I bring this board down because I won't view the game the way you do (which you obviously feel is the correct way). Just let me know. 

Lol, dude this is a message board. I’m not in charge and you’re free to post. I am not telling you to leave. I am just commenting that your constant negativity gets tiresome. Obviously the Sox have sucked for sometime and it gets old for all of us. But I don’t think it’s too much to ask to attempt to understand that all teams need depth and every spot on the 40 man is not going to be filled with an all star. Giving away assets for nothing is not a wise way to do business.

[NWINFan]

I was surprised to see a thread that was started as a response to Steve Stone turned into a debate about Lip. There are two things I know about him: there are few people who know more about White Sox history and he desperately wants the team to win. Negativity? Sometimes people mistake realism for negativity. I certainly don't agree with Lip on everything, but I have a good deal of respect for him.

There are a great deal of fans who truly want to believe in the rebuild. Why? Because this is the first decade since the '70s that the Sox didn't make at least one playoff appearance. So, fans want to believe there is light at the end of the tunnel and the losing will be worth it. You can't blame anyone for hoping. But it gets difficult at times, especially when a pitcher gives up five runs on 14 pitches. And I don't have anything personal against the guy. He just doesn't belong on a major league roster.

It was easy for Stone to lash at fans, but the losing started before the rebuild began.  The 99-loss season in 2013 was due to neglect. In the end, Stone picked a wrong time to criticize fans. We are still in the tunnel. I hope the True Believers are right, but we still have a long way to go. A season a few games over .500 would help. 

[Lip Man 1]

2 hours ago, NWINFan said:

I was surprised to see a thread that was started as a response to Steve Stone turned into a debate about Lip. There are two things I know about him: there are few people who know more about White Sox history and he desperately wants the team to win. Negativity? Sometimes people mistake realism for negativity. I certainly don't agree with Lip on everything, but I have a good deal of respect for him.

There are a great deal of fans who truly want to believe in the rebuild. Why? Because this is the first decade since the '70s that the Sox didn't make at least one playoff appearance. So, fans want to believe there is light at the end of the tunnel and the losing will be worth it. You can't blame anyone for hoping. But it gets difficult at times, especially when a pitcher gives up five runs on 14 pitches. And I don't have anything personal against the guy. He just doesn't belong on a major league roster.

It was easy for Stone to lash at fans, but the losing started before the rebuild began.  The 99-loss season in 2013 was due to neglect. In the end, Stone picked a wrong time to criticize fans. We are still in the tunnel. I hope the True Believers are right, but we still have a long way to go. A season a few games over .500 would help. 

Well said.

And to placate my critics I will attempt to "tone down" my negativity against players who have little to no business being on a team 2 1/2 seasons into a rebuild regardless of how many options they have.

On a personal note thanks for the kind words NWinFan (although I don't know who you are...)

It is rather funny in a way though that I'm being told I'm to negative by a few while at the same time I was accused in a post by an individual of going soft on JR and the organization.

Like the Sox the past several years I guess you just can't win.

Edited July 30, 2019 by Lip Man 1

[greg775]

12 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Well thought out post. I'd suggest though it's not just fans. Tom Verducci has written stories in Sports Illustrated warning where baseball is headed. Just a few days ago CBS Sportsline (I think) had a story saying where the majority of teams TV ratings are down including big market clubs like the Yankees, Dodgers and Phillies. I think the story said 18 teams ratings are down. (Sox are up significantly by the way.) USA Today has also written stories about how baseball is becoming boring, turning off fans and leading to decreased attendance.

It's becoming a real issue for the sport like it or not, and baseball is going to have to address it sooner or later. Perhaps that's why they have started talking about things like "no shifts" and next year will have the three batter minimum rule for relief pitchers to start to limit specialization (i.e. a pitcher is going to have to start getting hitters out regardless of if they hit left handed, right handed or between their legs).

Sabermetric analysis is having unintended consequences for the game and correction is needed the fans are speaking by not watching or going to the ballpark.

Somebody said there was a shift on Eloy the other day. Geez, if they already know where he's going to hit it, my gosh. You know, outlawing shifts I don't think would harm the integrity of the game. We need a strong commissioner to figure some things out. I mean it's common sense if one guy is standing at the traditional shortstop position and the rest of the players are standing on the right side of the infield and outfield to combat a lefthanded hitter, you've got to bunt or tap the ball to beat the shift. If players won't do that, they need to outlaw the shift.

[greg775]

18 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

I'm a die hard Sox fan who is embarrassed at what this franchise has become in the past dozen years. Shame on me, I guess.

Me too, but that brings up a discussion of tanking. I'm disgusted we've tried to have lousy teams the last few years yet Jerry still gets the same amount of profit/money. The front office faces no repercussions for a pathetic team/payroll.

[chitownsportsfan]

Some people really cannot wrap their head around tanking.  It's the same folks who wonder why Justin Holiday averaged 36 minutes a game for the Bulls before he was traded for a 2nd round pick.  It's a feature not a bug.

You can all commence your b****ing about "40 man trash" and AJ Reed and Dylan Covey in 2020.  Sorry, but that's just the reality of it and that was cemented when Manny and Harper signed elsewhere 8 months ago -- this is a tank year.  Losing is part of the plan.

Edited July 30, 2019 by chitownsportsfan

[Chicago White Sox]

36 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Well said.

And to placate my critics I will attempt to "tone down" my negativity against players who have little to no business being on a team 2 1/2 seasons into a rebuild regardless of how many options they have.

On a personal note thanks for the kind words NWinFan (although I don't know who you are...)

It is rather funny in a way though that I'm being told I'm to negative by a few while at the same time I was accused in a post by an individual of going soft on JR and the organization.

Like the Sox the past several years I guess you just can't win.

In a post where you pledge on being less negative, you make two different passive aggressive rips against the Sox.  This just comes off as an arrogant, half-assed attempt to appease your critics.

[Dick Allen]

I just don't see what Steve Stone gains getting into twitter fights with Sox fans, whether they are knuckleheads or not.

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

I just don't see what Steve Stone gains getting into twitter fights with Sox fans, whether they are knuckleheads or not.

Just like when Rongey would always take that condescending tone with callers to radio program or just hang up on them...

Dave Wills, John Rooney, Wayne Hagin, they always acted like ambassadors for the ballclub, it was never all about them being self-righteous or putting the attention on themselves.

[Jake]

2 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Some people really cannot wrap their head around tanking.  It's the same folks who wonder why Justin Holiday averaged 36 minutes a game for the Bulls before he was traded for a 2nd round pick.  It's a feature not a bug.

You can all commence your b****ing about "40 man trash" and AJ Reed and Dylan Covey in 2020.  Sorry, but that's just the reality of it and that was cemented when Manny and Harper signed elsewhere 8 months ago -- this is a tank year.  Losing is part of the plan.

I strongly doubt the front office is hoping to lose at this point. The value of shuffling around a handful of draft spots is not large. You can see how being just a tick better this year has helped push attendance and TV ratings up. At some point, you need to give fans something to cheer for, because eventually they stop being fans. About half the guys I knew in high school that were Sox fans are rooting for the Cubs now and these weren't people who don't care at all about baseball. But you can only keep running horrible teams out there for so long.

That doesn't mean we need to empty the farm to bring in Zack Greinke or something, and it doesn't even mean we shouldn't look at trades for guys like Colome, but there's no urgency to lose. The effects of losing are primarily negative.

[chitownsportsfan]

49 minutes ago, Jake said:

I strongly doubt the front office is hoping to lose at this point. The value of shuffling around a handful of draft spots is not large. You can see how being just a tick better this year has helped push attendance and TV ratings up. At some point, you need to give fans something to cheer for, because eventually they stop being fans. About half the guys I knew in high school that were Sox fans are rooting for the Cubs now and these weren't people who don't care at all about baseball. But you can only keep running horrible teams out there for so long.

That doesn't mean we need to empty the farm to bring in Zack Greinke or something, and it doesn't even mean we shouldn't look at trades for guys like Colome, but there's no urgency to lose. The effects of losing are primarily negative.

I think we're of the same mind largely.  I wouldn't say there is an "urgency to lose" this season, but there isn't an "urgency to win either". 

[NWINFan]

4 hours ago, Dick Allen said:

I just don't see what Steve Stone gains getting into twitter fights with Sox fans, whether they are knuckleheads or not.

I don't either. This reminds me of Guillen and his arguments with fans in 2011. It helped ruin his legacy. He'd probably regrets some of that stuff, or I would like to think he does.

Now that the White Sox are trying to rebuild their team on the field, maybe they ought to try rebuilding their relationship with their fans. It has needed a rebuild for some time.