Gerrit Cole - The Rebuild’s Fulcrum

[Moan4Yoan]

4 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

Yes. Just brings more fuel to the fire that the Sox won't pay for any FA. Just fucking invest that money into your scouting, analytics, and Player Development dept. If you want to be a small market team, be the A's or Rays, not the Pirates. 

If they don't do something reasonably acceptable to the fanbase this offseason, there are going to be torches and pitchforks at 35th and Shields. If the fanbase really gets pissed, the Sox could take off next year and the stadium could still be empty. 

I don’t mean to get all conspiracy theory here but it literally sounded like a preemptive strike by Reinsdorf / Hahn to temper fans expectations for next offseason through Steve Stone.  For Steve Stone to start calling out top free agent signings as not worth the money they receive seemed completely out of place for him and that the topic was intentionally discussed.

Edited July 23, 2019 by Moan4Yoan

[poppysox]

3 hours ago, Moan4Yoan said:

I don’t mean to get all conspiracy theory here but it literally sounded like a preemptive strike by Reinsdorf / Hahn to temper fans expectations for next offseason through Steve Stone.  For Steve Stone to start calling out top free agent signings as not worth the money they receive seemed completely out of place for him and that the topic was intentionally discussed.

It is possible that Stone agrees with JR on length of pitcher contracts.  I agree with JR on long contracts for pitchers being scary.  It might be necessary in todays market but that doesn't make it less scary.

[NWINFan]

6 hours ago, Moan4Yoan said:

I don’t mean to get all conspiracy theory here but it literally sounded like a preemptive strike by Reinsdorf / Hahn to temper fans expectations for next offseason through Steve Stone.  For Steve Stone to start calling out top free agent signings as not worth the money they receive seemed completely out of place for him and that the topic was intentionally discussed.

I agree in that I don't think Stone said these things so he could get something off his chest. This is how Reinsdorf operates. Along with the stupid lecture of about building houses, I think you are right about the upcoming offseason. At the moment I expect little news from the White Sox before the 2020 season. If the young players develop quickly, the team has a chance for a .500 season. But I don't expect more than that, and I don't think big money is going to be spent.

[bmags]

I think in general its true that big money deals for pitchers are bad overall, but they are a productive bad thing you do when you want to win because getting pitching that's good at the time is hard to predict long term and you just gotta take a shot.

[caulfield12]

I can just see it now.

Sox acquire Aaron Sanchez, because Coop can fix him like he "fixed" Giolito...there's your Cole/Bumgarner/Wheeler.

[bmags]

17 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

I can just see it now.

Sox acquire Aaron Sanchez, because Coop can fix him like he "fixed" Giolito...there's your Cole/Bumgarner/Wheeler.

Is Aaron Sanchez really that different than Wheeler? People way overvalue Wheeler and undervalue Wood.

[Chisoxfn]

Very rarely do teams win via free agency.  Doesn't mean free agency can't be part of the plan, but don't expect it to be the catalyst to greatness. Expecting that, vs. player development, good drafting, and proactive trading is fools gold.  I very much see the squad being aggressive in going after guys with a few years left (vs. going and handing out 7 yr deals to a starting pitcher).  

[caulfield12]

The idea that you can expect someone like Wheeler "to get straightened out" while providing him a premium contract (similar to Eeovaldi) is pretty nutty...as most of us already have our doubts about Don Cooper adjusting to the modern game.

Far likelier, second tier guys like Bumgarner or Odorizzi will end up with much more palatable 3 year contracts.  The line probably gets drawn at no more than 4 years, which definitely means no Gerrit Cole.

The likelier Sox path is finding two of those second tier guys to combine with the existing roster.

In the meantime, you have to believe in your own prospects fulfilling their destiny and at least one of the three becoming a true, TOR stud.

 

IMO, there is a LOT to be said for simultaneously going after underperforming guys like Aaron Sanchez (like Rodon, Boras is his agent and team control is through just 2020), Jonathan Gray, Foltynewitz, Freeland...as the bigger names are out of our current price range due to the fact that we'd be asked to give up more than we're willing to or can afford to give up.

Edited July 23, 2019 by caulfield12

[Dominikk85]

On 7/21/2019 at 4:20 PM, Jack Parkman said:

I'm not sure I want to sign Cole for his price tag. I wonder how much of his success is due to the Astros pitching lab and how much is him. He was pretty mediocre his last couple seasons with the Pirates. 

Shouldn't he be able to continue to do what he learned with the astros? At least as long the sox coaches don't actively prevent it by forcing him to use their style. 

Is cooper a dogmatic coach who has one style he prefers or is he a guy who embraces individuality and going with individual strengths?

[Lip Man 1]

3 hours ago, [email protected] said:

Shouldn't he be able to continue to do what he learned with the astros? At least as long the sox coaches don't actively prevent it by forcing him to use their style. 

Is cooper a dogmatic coach who has one style he prefers or is he a guy who embraces individuality and going with individual strengths?

Well I remember reading Shark had issues with him because he wanted him to pitch a certain way when he was here.

[Jack Parkman]

22 hours ago, Chisoxfn said:

Very rarely do teams win via free agency.  Doesn't mean free agency can't be part of the plan, but don't expect it to be the catalyst to greatness. Expecting that, vs. player development, good drafting, and proactive trading is fools gold.  I very much see the squad being aggressive in going after guys with a few years left (vs. going and handing out 7 yr deals to a starting pitcher).  

The issue is that the Sox aren't going to be able to trade for those guys without giving up key prospects like Vaughn and Robert. They would be robbing Peter to pay Paul. 

[Marky Mark]

Does anybody else smile a little and feel all warm inside every time they scroll through and see the word "fulcrum" in the thread title?

[ChiSox59]

23 hours ago, Chisoxfn said:

Very rarely do teams win via free agency.  Doesn't mean free agency can't be part of the plan, but don't expect it to be the catalyst to greatness. Expecting that, vs. player development, good drafting, and proactive trading is fools gold.  I very much see the squad being aggressive in going after guys with a few years left (vs. going and handing out 7 yr deals to a starting pitcher).  

 

47 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

The issue is that the Sox aren't going to be able to trade for those guys without giving up key prospects like Vaughn and Robert. They would be robbing Peter to pay Paul. 

The good thing is, the Sox have a pretty impressive stable of controllable talent built up from rebuilding and draft.  Free agency should be used to supplement a core, and hopefully that is what the Sox are going to do.  

Moncada, Anderson, Eloy, Robert, Madrigal, Vaughn, Giolito, Kopech, Cease, Lopez and 4-5 very good and interesting relief arms in a REALLY good start.  

The Sox should be able to fill in the gaps via FA and less regarded prospects (whether as contributors or trade bait).  That is how a true winner is built, and the Sox are definitely pointed in the right direction.  

[steveno89]

23 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

The idea that you can expect someone like Wheeler "to get straightened out" while providing him a premium contract (similar to Eeovaldi) is pretty nutty...as most of us already have our doubts about Don Cooper adjusting to the modern game.

Far likelier, second tier guys like Bumgarner or Odorizzi will end up with much more palatable 3 year contracts.  The line probably gets drawn at no more than 4 years, which definitely means no Gerrit Cole.

The likelier Sox path is finding two of those second tier guys to combine with the existing roster.

In the meantime, you have to believe in your own prospects fulfilling their destiny and at least one of the three becoming a true, TOR stud.

 

IMO, there is a LOT to be said for simultaneously going after underperforming guys like Aaron Sanchez (like Rodon, Boras is his agent and team control is through just 2020), Jonathan Gray, Foltynewitz, Freeland...as the bigger names are out of our current price range due to the fact that we'd be asked to give up more than we're willing to or can afford to give up.

Sox need to still be able to retain flexibility to add to the roster after the 2020 season as well. I really think this offseason will end up being far more measured than most, with the future in mind. 

Shopping in the second/third tier of free agents on shorter term deals will give the club options moving forward. As sexy as a Cole/Rendon signing would be, slim chance of it happening. 

[ChiSox59]

I don't even understand why Rendon is mentioned.  While a player that good always fits, the Sox aren't fucking with Moncada and they have one of the best 2B prospects in the game that will be ready at some point next season.  

Cole on the other hand......is most definitely a fit.  

[Moan4Yoan]

31 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I don't even understand why Rendon is mentioned.  While a player that good always fits, the Sox aren't fucking with Moncada and they have one of the best 2B prospects in the game that will be ready at some point next season.  

Cole on the other hand......is most definitely a fit.  

Yep, any interest in Rendon ended when the Sox whiffed on Machado and moved Moncada to 3B with Madrigal waiting in the wings for 2B.  Rendon is not going to happen, so why talk about it?  Let’s focus on Cole which likely won’t happen either.  ?

But at least he makes sense to sign.

[ChiSox59]

Just now, Moan4Yoan said:

Yep, any interest in Rendon ended when the Sox whiffed on Machado and moved Moncada to 3B with Madrigal waiting in the wings for 2B.  Rendon is not going to happen, so why talk about it?  Let’s focus on Cole which likely won’t happen either.  ?

But at least he makes sense to sign.

Yep.  If the Sox sign an IF, it should be one that can cover 2B for a bit and then be a super utility guy.  Still love the idea of trying to get Derek Deitrich. He'd be great fill-in at 2B, and then could play him around the diamond and DH.  

[GermanSoxFan]

Signing Puig or Dickerson to play RF and Castellanos to be the primary DH, the Sox would add 5 wins without having to break the bank.

[bmags]

I would just pay rendon and ask him to play 2b and spell 3b and when he's unplayable move him to DH

[GermanSoxFan]

It's pretty clear to me that Madrigal is the 2B come next May.

If you sign Rendon to be the DH you zap him of most of his value. Signing someone like Edwin Encarnacion for a fraction of the price would net you the same results.

[mqr]

1 minute ago, GermanSoxFan said:

It's pretty clear to me that Madrigal is the 2B come next May.

If you sign Rendon to be the DH you zap him of most of his value. Signing someone like Edwin Encarnacion for a fraction of the price would net you the same results.

I think you're underrating just how good of a hitter Rendon is here

[GermanSoxFan]

1 minute ago, mqr said:

I think you're underrating just how good of a hitter Rendon is here

True, over the last 3 years he has averaged around a .950 OPS. But still, signing him to be the primary DH would cost a premium that shoudl be invested elsewhere.

[Sarava]

3 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

 The issue is that the Sox aren't going to be able to trade for those guys without giving up key prospects like Vaughn and Robert. They would be robbing Peter to pay Paul. 

Obviously you can't trade Robert. But I'd be fine with trading Vaughn for the right return. He's the one blue chip prospect we have that doesn't feel necessary for this team to be complete. But it would have to be a big 'get' to move him.

[Jack Parkman]

5 minutes ago, Sarava said:

Obviously you can't trade Robert. But I'd be fine with trading Vaughn for the right return. He's the one blue chip prospect we have that doesn't feel necessary for this team to be complete. But it would have to be a big 'get' to move him.

I would be open to that too. Out of the guys left in the minors, only Robert is a no-go. (I consider Kopech an MLB player because he's on the MLB IL and was up when he got injured) 

Edited July 24, 2019 by Jack Parkman

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, Sarava said:

Obviously you can't trade Robert. But I'd be fine with trading Vaughn for the right return. He's the one blue chip prospect we have that doesn't feel necessary for this team to be complete. But it would have to be a big 'get' to move him.

Who would you play at 1B when they're competing for the division in 2021/22/23?

Certainly not Abreu...

Who are you going to be able to trade Vaughn for that's going to be a guaranteed frontline starter?   Until he's an established big-leager, all these guys...even Robert...are going to have less value than someone with a big league track record.

Even then (and I only mention this because it was a suggestion here or another thread), trading the likes of Moncada, Madrigal or Jimenez aren't going to get you the equivalent frontline pitching prospect without red flags...and then all you end up doing is creating another hole in your line-up.

It SHOULD be easy to find a decent two-way player in RF, or a DH...but, for some reason, it's something the White Sox under Hahn have struggled with the last couple of seasons.  Granted, they traded Eaton and then let Avisail Garcia go, but it's not exactly rocket science either.  We SHOULD be able to do better than Cordell, Tilson, Engel, Delmonico, Palka, etc.