Gerrit Cole - The Rebuild’s Fulcrum

[Sarava]

2 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I would be open to that too. Out of the guys left in the minors, only Robert is a no-go. (I consider Kopech an MLB player because he's on the MLB IL and was up when he got injured) 

I would have a real hard time trading Madigral.

[Jack Parkman]

1 minute ago, Sarava said:

I would have a real hard time trading Madigral.

Momentary brain fart, but I'd be ok trading him as well. I'm not as high on Vaughn and Madrigal as most here are. 

[ptatc]

17 hours ago, [email protected] said:

Shouldn't he be able to continue to do what he learned with the astros? At least as long the sox coaches don't actively prevent it by forcing him to use their style. 

Is cooper a dogmatic coach who has one style he prefers or is he a guy who embraces individuality and going with individual strengths?

Cooper doesn't preach mechanics only about balance and staying tall to throw downhill. He does preach less velocity to increase movement. From my understanding this is the problem some pitchers coming from the outside have with him such as Samardzija.

[caulfield12]

4 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Momentary brain fart, but I'd be ok trading him as well. I'm not as high on Vaughn and Madrigal as most here are. 

Then you should fire Hostetler, lol...

In all seriousness, what team is going to give us a TOR young/cost-controlled starter for Madrigal?  

What team does Madrigal have more value to than the White Sox?  (The answer might actually be the Cubs, because they have strong hitters at almost every position in the line-up, whereas he would be expected to contribute a lot more to the Sox offense.)

Of course, Hahn's not actually going to make that trade, let's say for Schwarber, Happ, Strop/Edwards Jr./Chatwood. 

(Won't even mention Addison Russell, he's that far in the doghouse that no team in baseball will touch him after what Epstein went through vouching for him.)

[Jack Parkman]

12 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Then you should fire Hostetler, lol...

In all seriousness, what team is going to give us a TOR young/cost-controlled starter for Madrigal?  

What team does Madrigal have more value to than the White Sox?  (The answer might actually be the Cubs, because they have strong hitters at almost every position in the line-up, whereas he would be expected to contribute a lot more to the Sox offense.)

Of course, Hahn's not actually going to make that trade, let's say for Schwarber, Happ, Strop/Edwards Jr./Chatwood. 

(Won't even mention Addison Russell, he's that far in the doghouse that no team in baseball will touch him after what Epstein went through vouching for him.)

I don't think the Sox have a prospect in the minors outside of Robert that could headline a deal like that. Vaughn is the closest, but I still don't think so. 

What's crazy is I think Jarred Kelenic could. 

I'm not a fan of Hostetler so far. Haven't been a fan of any of his picks. 

Edited July 24, 2019 by Jack Parkman

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I don't think the Sox have a prospect in the minors outside of Robert that could headline a deal like that. Vaughn is the closest, but I still don't think so. 

What's crazy is I think Jarred Kelenick could. 

The ONLY thing that makes sense about this is putting Madrigal closer to his California/Oregon State home...but it's not like it's going to cause Mariners' attendance to increase by 1,500 per game.

Kalenic would probably prefer to be closer to home, too, but that's not a good reason for either team to trade one of their future franchise cornerstones.

[Jack Parkman]

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

The ONLY thing that makes sense about this is putting Madrigal closer to his California/Oregon State home...but it's not like it's going to cause Mariners' attendance to increase by 1,500 per game.

Kalenic would probably prefer to be closer to home, too, but that's not a good reason for either team to trade one of their future franchise cornerstones.

No, the Sox would have had to have drafted Kelenic last year. 

[GermanSoxFan]

It‘s not like Madrigal is putting up videogame numbers in Birmingham, right?

Jack being down on him reminds me of that crusade trying to convince everyone that Kyle Hendricks actually sucks and has been getting lucky for years. Some players just don‘t fit the mold and Madrigal has done everything so far to prove the doubters wrong.

[Jack Parkman]

4 minutes ago, GermanSoxFan said:

It‘s not like Madrigal is putting up videogame numbers in Birmingham, right?

Jack being down on him reminds me of that crusade trying to convince everyone that Kyle Hendricks actually sucks and has been getting lucky for years. Some players just don‘t fit the mold and Madrigal has done everything so far to prove the doubters wrong.

Quintana was another guy I couldn't figure out. It turns out he got figured out by hitters eventually. 

Edited July 24, 2019 by Jack Parkman

[caulfield12]

5 minutes ago, GermanSoxFan said:

It‘s not like Madrigal is putting up videogame numbers in Birmingham, right?

Jack being down on him reminds me of that crusade trying to convince everyone that Kyle Hendricks actually sucks and has been getting lucky for years. Some players just don‘t fit the mold and Madrigal has done everything so far to prove the doubters wrong.

Even now, he still has doubters because of his 2018 season...at any rate, just for baseball smarts, work ethic, baserunning, defense and fundamentals alone, he's worth at least 1.5 fWAR without even setting foot on the field of play.

[mqr]

5 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Quintana was another guy I couldn't figure out. It turns out he got figured out by hitters eventually. 

Nah he just lost the command that made him so good

[GermanSoxFan]

I think if he were called up today, Madrigal would  easily be a 3 WAR player.

[TheFutureIsNear]

I’ll give us a solid 2.5% chance of signing Cole. Not going to happen, just prepare yourselves now. 

[steveno89]

12 minutes ago, GermanSoxFan said:

I think if he were called up today, Madrigal would  easily be a 3 WAR player.

I'm starting to think Madrigal absolutely should be up mid-late April 2020 as well for this reason. I was concerned about his ceiling before, but the more I think about it Madrigal is the type of player who could be relied for 3 - 5 WAR year after year with his hit tool, speed and plus defense. With a juiced ball, I can easily see him reaching 10-15 home runs with his bat control. 

I really do not think he will be challenged all that much by AA/AAA, and he will be MLB ready soon. Gain the additional season of control and call him up with Robert. 

[SoxAce]

2 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

Momentary brain fart, but I'd be ok trading him as well. I'm not as high on Vaughn and Madrigal as most here are. 

I think we were the only two (maybe honorable mention to @Sarava) that weren't as hoopla on Vaughn as most were in the draft.

[Jose Abreu]

6 minutes ago, SoxAce said:

I think we were the only two (maybe honorable mention to @Sarava) that weren't as hoopla on Vaughn as most were in the draft.

I could be completely misremembering the draft thread but I thought there was a period of time where Abrams was the majority preference 

[SoxAce]

2 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

I could be completely misremembering the draft thread but I thought there was a period of time where Abrams was the majority preference 

Not even close (unless you mean acceptance after certain guys)

Edited July 24, 2019 by SoxAce

[Jack Parkman]

17 minutes ago, SoxAce said:

I think we were the only two (maybe honorable mention to @Sarava) that weren't as hoopla on Vaughn as most were in the draft.

He was grouped in with the rest for me. After you took position, handedness and lack of versatility into account, I had Bleday, Abrams and Greene ahead of him on my board. 

I wanted either Bleday or Abrams. I couldn't argue with Vaughn that much, but I was a bigger fan of the other two. Just Imagine Bleday in our system instead of Vaughn. We'd have a guy to pencil into RF with a LH bat, something that everyone has been looking for. Also, Collins and Sheets are options for 1B. It was a much better organizational fit. 

Edited July 24, 2019 by Jack Parkman

[Dominikk85]

5 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

The ONLY thing that makes sense about this is putting Madrigal closer to his California/Oregon State home...but it's not like it's going to cause Mariners' attendance to increase by 1,500 per game.

Kalenic would probably prefer to be closer to home, too, but that's not a good reason for either team to trade one of their future franchise cornerstones.

Kelenic isnt a better prospect than madrigal. Kelenic is rated a 55 and 37th overall on fg, madrigal is ranked a 55 and 29th so almost a wash. Kelenic got Edwin Diaz this off season (basically, as Cano was involved but his salary made him basically negative value), he won't land a real cheap young TOR either at least not without very strong second and third pieces.

The recent history for controlled aces was a 70 or at least a 65 (I,e a top10 overall) prospect as a headliner for a real controlled young ace (moncada, eloy) and then another low ranked top100 as second piece. An exception to this was cole but he also can from two consecutive down seasons (3.9 and 4.2 era). Now you could of course do madrigal and Vaughn as a comparable package to a 70 (two 55 hitters have about the same value as one 70 hitter) but the sox would be absolutely stupid to do that, they don't want to ruin their future, they need those guys.

Edited July 24, 2019 by [email protected]

[Balta1701]

Quote

Schoenfield: You know what's going to be ridiculous? The amount of money Cole is going to get this offseason as a free agent. The Dodgers have already reserved a couple of Brinks trucks for Dec. 18. But so have the Yankees. And wouldn't the Rangers love to have him as they open their new park? Maybe the Phillies will want an ace.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/27256518/mlb-weekend-watch-yankees-red-sox-madbum-future-al-west-stars

[Chicago White Sox]

2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/27256518/mlb-weekend-watch-yankees-red-sox-madbum-future-al-west-stars

 

[Lip Man 1]

2 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/27256518/mlb-weekend-watch-yankees-red-sox-madbum-future-al-west-stars

In other words the Sox can have a seat at the kids table but there's no way in hell they are signing him.

[NWINFan]

1 hour ago, Lip Man 1 said:

In other words the Sox can have a seat at the kids table but there's no way in hell they are signing him.

If not signing free agents is a continuing trend, then the White Sox are in a perpetual rebuild. I like the idea of building from within, but you won't win in the long run with prospects only. Maybe this is why Stone went on his rant. He was preparing us for the worst and wanting to fight any fan backlash.

I realize it is easy for fans to say that JR needs to open his wallet. But we are not in control of baseball economics. No matter how many times we attend games, the real money doesn't come from us. So we have to sit on the sidelines and hope the rebuild works while the expensive free agents go elsewhere. Reminds me of the late 70's and Bill Veeck.

[Moan4Yoan]

14 minutes ago, Tony said:

It’s why last offseason was so frustrating. Two mega FA’s that both fit for the Sox, and all the big players (Yanks, Red Sox, Dodgers, Cubs) we’re sitting on the FA sidelines. It’s not going to happen again anytime soon like that. 

True.  Ironically, not signing Machado could have been a gift as Moncada has excelled at 3B, Madrigal is set to take over 2B, and the Sox obviously need starting pitching the most.  But like you said, now the Sox get to compete with a bunch of other teams for the top starting pitchers.

[Moan4Yoan]

25 minutes ago, Tony said:

Right, it’s a blessing if they use the money in the right way over the next 12 months. I’d still love Machado at 3B, Yo at 2nd and you have a great problem when Nick is ready. It’s then an asset you have to move if needed. 

But, I agree the Sox infield looks like it could be in real good shape moving forward. And this season has given us a much clearer picture on things. There are a number of things that are clear now that we didn’t know in December of 2018. Yoan is a Star. Gio is at very least a No. 3. Tim has improved. Robert is having a year we could only dream of. Basically the same for Nicky. Andrew Vaughn is now in the system. 

Things are starting to come into focus more, which allows the Sox to focus in on those key needs.

I really would love to see us trade some combination of whatever we have left (Colome, Abreu, Leury, etc.) for a top 75 outfielder prospect since team's probably don't want to give up good pitching prospects for our guys.  The idea of a young hitter at every position is really ideal to me.  Then, throw all your money at pitching.