Free Agency - How confident are you?

[SonofaRoache]

13 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

It doesn’t, Hahn is just trying a little harder to manage expectations this time around, which he admitted he fucked up last offseason.

Hahn is spinning like a wheel here. People weren't pissed because he raised expectations with Machado. People are pissed because we all knew Machado was a fit for this team, at a reasonable cost for a young star, with 2 suitors, and we screwed up. We already know the Sox need to spend big this offseason whether Hahn says it or not. If they fail this off season, fans aren't gonna say we don't care because Hahn didn't raise expectations. 

[Chicago White Sox]

7 hours ago, fathom said:

Stras going back to San Diego makes a ton of sense

95% of the time guys go where the most money is and I have a very hard time believing San Diego will be that team when they have $75M+ locked up to Machado, Myers, & Hosmer over the coming years.

[SonofaRoache]

7 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

Honestly I'd prefer that the Sox let the big boys duke it out for Cole while the they go under the radar and get something done for Strasburg/Bumgarner/Wheeler. 

Honestly if the Sox could swing it I'd like them to grab Bumgarner and Wheeler, and trade Lopez for a LH RF. 

I think they're either going to get Strasburg or Bumgarner and another back end pitcher. 

The Sox would have to overpay to make that work by a lot. Thise guys aren't signing until after Cole does because they want bidding wars for their services. Whatever big teams don't get Cole, will turn their attention to those other guys. 

[Chicago White Sox]

5 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

Hahn is spinning like a wheel here. People weren't pissed because he raised expectations with Machado. People are pissed because we all knew Machado was a fit for this team, at a reasonable cost for a young star, with 2 suitors, and we screwed up. We already know the Sox need to spend big this offseason whether Hahn says it or not. If they fail this off season, fans aren't gonna say we don't care because Hahn didn't raise expectations. 

You really don’t think people were more pissed because of the way Hahn talked last season?  He literally spent the entire offseason hyping up our financial flexibility and made it seem like we were prepared to do whatever it took to land a Harper or Machado.  Honestly, had he said nothing half this board wouldn’t even be that mad right now as they would assumed it was never a possibility in the first place.  Expectations most definitely matter and he has nothing to gain from setting them.  Good for him to learn that lesson, now him, KW, & Jerry have to realize that 95% of the time landing elite free agents is all about offering the largest guaranteed package. Getting cute and trying to get a guy to accept vesting options isn’t going to work in any normal free agent market.  Match years and offer the biggest AAV or prepared to come our empty handed again.

[Dick Allen]

On 8/2/2019 at 11:33 AM, southsideirish71 said:

 

 

34 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

You really don’t think people were more pissed because of the way Hahn talked last season?  He literally spent the entire offseason hyping up our financial flexibility and made it seem like we were prepared to do whatever it took to land a Harper or Machado.  Honestly, had he said nothing half this board wouldn’t even be that mad right now as they would assumed it was never a possibility in the first place.  Expectations most definitely matter and he has nothing to gain from setting them.  Good for him to learn that lesson, now him, KW, & Jerry have to realize that 95% of the time landing elite free agents is all about offering the largest guaranteed package. Getting cute and trying to get a guy to accept vesting options isn’t going to work in any normal free agent market.  Match years and offer the biggest AAV or prepared to come our empty handed again.

 Apparently the White Sox were thrilled just for a seat at the table. I agree, Hahn saying nothing last year would have saved him a lot of the twitter grief he hates. 

But he is great at talking out of both sides of his mouth. On one hand it’s great the Sox came in second, put a feather in their cap because, I don’t know why, but on the other hand he says it’s binary, you either sign him or you don’t. 

Trying to get cute then losing out and spinning we made the better offer, but we cannot afford the one he picked is just telling the fan base how dumb they think they are.

i will believe it when I see it. That goes from them actually closing the deal on franchise altering players, and actually putting together winning teams. Hahn and his multiple championships line is silly. How is he qualified to know what “multi championship players” look like? He would be done as a GM by now if he was with any other team.

I listened to a lot of the podcast and his answer about the Nate Jones trade was telling. Blah, blah, blah Paddy doesn’t like any more prospects...this is going to be big for us. Saving $3 million in today’s game is big for a mom and pop operation, not some team with unprecedented payroll flexibility who will soon be competing for multiple championships.

Edited August 10, 2019 by Dick Allen

[GreenSox]

On 8/7/2019 at 11:14 AM, poppysox said:

I trust Hahn to get a quality starter or two.  He knows this club needs that kind of steady influence.  He is not as clueless as some on this board think.

Sure he knows they need a starter.  Who doesn't?   His ongoing problem is the inability to evaluate players; and then acquiring them on terms that harm, rather than help, the team and organization.

Edited August 10, 2019 by GreenSox

[NWINFan]

I agree with Dick Allen. Hahn would have been let go by most teams with his record. And the rebuild came out of desperation. The Sox, although they had some talent, were plodding along winning in the mid '70s range and contending for nothing.  Fans were frustrated not only by the losing, but by a franchise drifting with no apparent direction. So many were glad to see the club at least have some focus.

But now with this focus, there has to be results. There is no credibility with continued pleas for patience. Whatever the Sox do this offseason, there has to be at least some improvement that will cause real hope. Talk, at this point, means nothing.

[Chicago White Sox]

17 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

 

 Apparently the White Sox were thrilled just for a seat at the table. I agree, Hahn saying nothing last year would have saved him a lot of the twitter grief he hates. 

But he is great at talking out of both sides of his mouth. On one hand it’s great the Sox came in second, put a feather in their cap because, I don’t know why, but on the other hand he says it’s binary, you either sign him or you don’t. 

Trying to get cute then losing out and spinning we made the better offer, but we cannot afford the one he picked is just telling the fan base how dumb they think they are.

i will believe it when I see it. That goes from them actually closing the deal on franchise altering players, and actually putting together winning teams. Hahn and his multiple championships line is silly. How is he qualified to know what “multi championship players” look like? He would be done as a GM by now if he was with any other team.

I listened to a lot of the podcast and his answer about the Nate Jones trade was telling. Blah, blah, blah Paddy doesn’t like any more prospects...this is going to be big for us. Saving $3 million in today’s game is big for a mom and pop operation, not some team with unprecedented payroll flexibility who will soon be competing for multiple championships.

Trust me, I’m not going to defend Hahn here.  His track record of building winning baseball rosters is terrible and he routinely spins pretty much everything.  That being said, I do think he realizes he fucked up last offseason with all the hype and am glad he admits that fans have every right doubt our ability to land a stud free agent until it actually happens.  At some point, it’s put up or shut-up time and quite frankly that has to be this offseason.  They really have to start “augmenting” as Hahn puts it and stop the losing.  No more fucking excuses.

[Sarava]

1 hour ago, SonofaRoache said:

The Sox would have to overpay to make that work by a lot. Thise guys aren't signing until after Cole does because they want bidding wars for their services. Whatever big teams don't get Cole, will turn their attention to those other guys. 

I agree Strasburg will wait, since he's a Boras guy as well. But Wheeler and Bumganer might not want to wait until March or April to sign.

[Dick Allen]

9 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Trust me, I’m not going to defend Hahn here.  His track record of building winning baseball rosters is terrible and he routinely spins pretty much everything.  That being said, I do think he realizes he fucked up last offseason with all the hype and am glad he admits that fans have every right doubt our ability to land a stud free agent until it actually happens.  At some point, it’s put up or shut-up time and quite frankly that has to be this offseason.  They really have to start “augmenting” as Hahn puts it and stop the losing.  No more fucking excuses.

He has, for the first time that I am aware, now put rebuilds at a 5-7 year process. He also seems to think all of his injured players will return without a hint of diminished skills. On top of that, it appears he really isn’t thinking any of his top guys will ever suffer a significant injury again.

Another thing I took from the podcast, the chances Rodon gets non tendered are close to zero. Paying him to rehab is fine, but if he shows anything when he returns, he will be signing somewhere else. I would also like to know where he gets the White Sox are becoming a top destination for free agents . Did Jon Jay tell him this whe his family thanked RH for the $4 million gift?

Edited August 10, 2019 by Dick Allen

[Sarava]

32 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

 

 Apparently the White Sox were thrilled just for a seat at the table. I agree, Hahn saying nothing last year would have saved him a lot of the twitter grief he hates. 

But he is great at talking out of both sides of his mouth. On one hand it’s great the Sox came in second, put a feather in their cap because, I don’t know why, but on the other hand he says it’s binary, you either sign him or you don’t. 

Trying to get cute then losing out and spinning we made the better offer, but we cannot afford the one he picked is just telling the fan base how dumb they think they are.

i will believe it when I see it. That goes from them actually closing the deal on franchise altering players, and actually putting together winning teams. Hahn and his multiple championships line is silly. How is he qualified to know what “multi championship players” look like? He would be done as a GM by now if he was with any other team.

 I listened to a lot of the podcast and his answer about the Nate Jones trade was telling. Blah, blah, blah Paddy doesn’t like any more prospects...this is going to be big for us. Saving $3 million in today’s game is big for a mom and pop operation, not some team with unprecedented payroll flexibility who will soon be competing for multiple championships.

Which podcast was Hahn speaking in? I'd love to listen to it.

[Dick Allen]

2 minutes ago, Sarava said:

Which podcast was Hahn speaking in? I'd love to listen to it.

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/white-sox/white-sox-talk-podcast-gm-rick-hahn-talks-luis-robert-zack-collins-and-impact-social-media

[Sarava]

I think one of the big problems is the White Sox operate like a small to mid market team. and they treat their fans much the same way. I think they honestly thought Sox fans would be satisfied with them 'having a seat at the table'. Why would you keep repeating that stupid phrase, otherwise? Chicago fans don't want to be treated like that and for Rick Hahn, who grew up here, he should of known better.

[Sarava]

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/white-sox/white-sox-talk-podcast-gm-rick-hahn-talks-luis-robert-zack-collins-and-impact-social-media

Thanks

[Chicago White Sox]

5 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

He has, for the first time that I am aware, now put rebuilds at a 5-7 year process. He also seems to think all of his injured players will return without a hint of diminished skills. On top of that, it appears he really isn’t thinking any of his top guys will ever suffer a significant injury again.

Another thing I took from the podcast, the chances Rodon gets non tendered are close to zero. Paying him to rehab is fine, but if he shows anything when he returns, he will be signing somewhere else. I would also like to know where he gets the White Sox are becoming a top destination for free agents . Did Jon Jay tell him this whe his family thanked RH for the $4 million gift?

Rodon is under control through the 2021 season, so there is reason to hold him next year.  

Also, I’m not sure he said we were becoming a top free agent destination, but more so an improving one.

[Chicago White Sox]

2 minutes ago, Sarava said:

I think one of the big problems is the White Sox operate like a small to mid market team. and they treat their fans much the same way. I think they honestly thought Sox fans would be satisfied with them 'having a seat at the table'. Why would you keep repeating that stupid phrase, otherwise? Chicago fans don't want to be treated like that and for Rick Hahn, who grew up here, he should of known better.

I really don’t believe this.  I think Hahn thought they had a great chance at signing Machado and let his cockiness show.  I just hope they thought SD was a bluff at the end, because having high confidence with an eight year limitation means our leadership is completely incompetent.

[Sarava]

1 minute ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I really don’t believe this.  I think Hahn thought they had a great chance at signing Machado and let his cockiness show.  I just hope they thought SD was a bluff at the end, because having high confidence with an eight year limitation means our leadership is completely incompetent.

If he knew they weren't going past 250 mil guaranteed, then he should of known Manny wasn't going to sign here.

[Chicago White Sox]

8 minutes ago, Sarava said:

If he knew they weren't going past 250 mil guaranteed, then he should of known Manny wasn't going to sign here.

And that’s the question.  Did they really have this cap the whole time or did they think SD was a bluff and simply botched it at the end?  I honestly lean toward the latter because 1) It’s hard to believe they could have been so confident for months while having an eight year limitation, 2) Reinsdorf did offer A-Rod a 10 year deal back in the day, 3) they brought on two of his buddies for a combined $14M, & 4) their reactions just reeked of being caught completely off-guard.

I personally lean towards them thinking they were in the pilot seat the whole time, trying to dictate the process by negotiating through the media, and eventually allowing SD come in at the last minute and quickly get things done. I think their lack of experience and ego undid then and they simply didn’t want to negotiate against themselves at the end (not realizing they were no longer in the lead).  Obviously there is no way to prove this and the miss would still be a result of their incompetence, but it would be better than the alternative.

[Sarava]

2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

And that’s the question.  Did they really have this cap the whole time or did they think SD was a bluff and simply botched it at the end?  I honestly lean toward the latter because 1) It’s hard to believe they could have been so confident for months while having an eight year limitation, 2) Reinsdorf did offer A-Rod a 10 year deal back in the day, 3) they brought on two of his buddies for a combined $14M, & 4) their reactions just reeked of being caught completely off-guard.

I personally lean towards them thinking they were in the pilot seat the whole time, trying to dictate the process by negotiating through the media, and eventually allowing SD come in at the last minute and quickly get things done. I think their lack of experience and ego undid then and they simply didn’t want to negotiate against themselves at the end (not realizing they were no longer in the lead).  Obviously there is no way to prove this and the miss would still be a result of their incompetence, but it would be better than the alternative.

Point taken. As you say, either way they look bad in the end.

Now going for this off-season - as has been said, 2 of the premier pitchers available are Boras guys, which likely means they sign in March or later. So if the Sox are in on guys in the next tier (Wheeler, Bumgarner, etc.), then it might be wise to not wait it out like they may have done with Manny. Make solid, responsible, aggressive offers to these guys in December. Don't wait for things to go bad again. It will be interesting seeing how the winter plays out.

[SonofaRoache]

1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

You really don’t think people were more pissed because of the way Hahn talked last season?  He literally spent the entire offseason hyping up our financial flexibility and made it seem like we were prepared to do whatever it took to land a Harper or Machado.  Honestly, had he said nothing half this board wouldn’t even be that mad right now as they would assumed it was never a possibility in the first place.  Expectations most definitely matter and he has nothing to gain from setting them.  Good for him to learn that lesson, now him, KW, & Jerry have to realize that 95% of the time landing elite free agents is all about offering the largest guaranteed package. Getting cute and trying to get a guy to accept vesting options isn’t going to work in any normal free agent market.  Match years and offer the biggest AAV or prepared to come our empty handed again.

Nope. I couldn't care less what Hahn said as is the case with most people. We are mad because we lost Machado to the Padres by being cheap. And then had the nerve to say their offer was better because they included incentives Machado wouldn't have reached. We are mad because we wasted money on his friends that could have went to him, not because Hahn was confident and open. 

[hi8is]

They’ll sign a mid level top tier guy and a bunch of second level guys..

[RTC]

2 hours ago, SonofaRoache said:

Hahn is spinning like a wheel here. People weren't pissed because he raised expectations with Machado. People are pissed because we all knew Machado was a fit for this team, at a reasonable cost for a young star, with 2 suitors, and we screwed up. We already know the Sox need to spend big this offseason whether Hahn says it or not. If they fail this off season, fans aren't gonna say we don't care because Hahn didn't raise expectations. 

I’m not so sure about that.  Fans on Soxtalk?  Agree.  But I’m not so sure the average fan gets that outraged about all this.  Even after last winters’ debacle average game attendance is up 10% this season.

[Chicago White Sox]

6 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

Nope. I couldn't care less what Hahn said as is the case with most people. We are mad because we lost Machado to the Padres by being cheap. And then had the nerve to say their offer was better because they included incentives Machado wouldn't have reached. We are mad because we wasted money on his friends that could have went to him, not because Hahn was confident and open. 

I think you’re taking your opinion and applying it to others.  There were many here who called out Hahn’s confidence throughout the process and had major issues with it well before we ultimately  missed out on Machado.  And there are many posters here who believe we’ll never sign an impactful free agent and the only reason they are upset right now about the Manny miss is because Hahn gave them the slightest bit of hope.  To say Hahn’s blatant cockiness throughout the offseason didn’t make the broader fanbase angrier is simply not true IMO.

[Dick Allen]

I do think they are going to have to have an off-season that shows they are about done with the rebuild this winter. The typical half assed measures, window opening  delayed again moves, are not going to be well received even by most of RH walks on water crowd. Expecting the team to make the playoffs in 2020 is not realistic, but expecting management to put them in position to be competitive and at least have a shot is not. It’s a very small expectation considering this group believes it is capable of building a team that wins multiple championships.

Edited August 10, 2019 by Dick Allen

[caulfield12]

They need to sign at least three “quality” players to three or more year contracts...something like the Robertson/Cabrera/LaRoche trio and trading for Samardzija offseason, in terms of potential impact of incoming players.

(Except not have any of the moves work out well.)

It certainly can’t be the equivalent of just Todd Frazier or Jeff Keppinger again.

Edited August 10, 2019 by caulfield12