Free Agency - How confident are you?

[Jose Abreu]

10 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

To be fair, they didn't negotiate with Boras last winter over Harper. They heard the asking price, thought it was too much and moved on. 

Not according to Heyman, who gets his info straight from Boras. He reported in June that the Sox made a last minute run at him after missing on Machado. Obviously, they failed, so it doesn't really matter, but the other poster is incorrect in saying that the Sox don't even negotiate with Boras. 

Don't sign his clients? Sure. But they absolutely negotiate, and it's a weird thing to deny

[caulfield12]

I never said Castellanos and Ozuna couldn’t be signed by the White Sox, just that they probably wouldn’t be worth their free agent contracts based on the seasons they’re currently having...that neither would be the first players signed to contracts of over $68 million with the Sox.

Just because we logically took Rodon after Aiken/Kolek and before Schwarber doesn’t mean we now actively seek out Boras clients whenever possible.  Heck, Crede was a Boras client who turned out to have possibly hurt himself by not signing a long term extension while it was still possible, instead electing to go year to year in arbitration.

If anything, it has put the White Sox in a difficult position of never really getting much surplus benefit from Rodon, then watching him depart to another organization.  Dealing with Boras might have accidentally saved money for the team in both situations, but it’s hard to argue that dealing with a guy that takes 95% of his clients into free agency is helpful for a mid market team.

We also know that there was very limited contact or follow up with Boras after those original meetings w/ Harper...just the proverbial seat at the table.

Edited August 27, 2019 by caulfield12

[ChiSox59]

Just now, Jose Abreu said:

We're discussing him as a 2B, where he used to play

Sure.  Just doesn't seem like a wise use of resources.  If the Sox signed Rendon, played him at 2B and moved Madrigal for a young stud SP, sure that works.

But the Sox future IF is set IMO.  The $ will be spent on starting pitching, a bullpen anchor, DH/1B type and perhaps a RF (I see them trading for the RF, personally). 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 minute ago, Moan4Yoan said:

Agreed, but the Sox aren’t signing Rendon because they don’t want to move Moncada’s position again.  They aren’t signing Rendon because Moncada plays 3B just fine and Madrigal is almost ready to take over 2B.  And also the massive contract it would take to sign Rendon.  So the current setup will work without having to spend any more money.  Signing Rendon and changing Moncada’s position would obviously make the team better.

When you have a finite number of resources, spending a large % of them on a position that is already occupied by your best player is a waste as you will never maximize your return.

The Sox have holes and weaknesses they need to fill. Those holes cost money to fill. When you spend money filling a hole that doesnt exist, you are not allocating your finite resources efficiently and effectively. The Sox would be better off signing 2 pitchers for what it would cost to sign Rendon. The White Sox do not need an infielder, therefore they shouldnt sign the most expensive one on the market. This really isnt difficult to understand. You invest in areas of opportunity, not the other way around.

[Jose Abreu]

Just now, ChiSox59 said:

Sure.  Just doesn't seem like a wise use of resources.  If the Sox signed Rendon, played him at 2B and moved Madrigal for a young stud SP, sure that works.

But the Sox future IF is set IMO.  The $ will be spent on starting pitching, a bullpen anchor, DH/1B type and perhaps a RF (I see them trading for the RF, personally). 

That's exactly what I mean (bold). But I agree with you, Moncada should not be moved again, and they'll probably sign a couple SPs and a DH. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 minutes ago, mqr said:

If the brewers can get away with Mike Moustakas at second...

Rendon was literally a natural second baseman most of his college and pro career until the Nats moved him.

The Sox don't need an infielder though so this is a pointless discussion.

[Dick Allen]

1 minute ago, Jose Abreu said:

Not according to Heyman, who gets his info straight from Boras. He reported in June that the Sox made a last minute run at him after missing on Machado. Obviously, they failed, so it doesn't really matter, but the other poster is incorrect in saying that the Sox don't even negotiate with Boras. 

Don't sign his clients? Sure. But they absolutely negotiate, and it's a weird thing to deny

Boras fed Heyman some BS to increase the offers. The Sox were done with Harper right after their meeting. The Sox were used as leverage, again.

[Moan4Yoan]

2 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

Not according to Heyman, who gets his info straight from Boras. He reported in June that the Sox made a last minute run at him after missing on Machado. Obviously, they failed, so it doesn't really matter, but the other poster is incorrect in saying that the Sox don't even negotiate with Boras. 

Don't sign his clients? Sure. But they absolutely negotiate, and it's a weird thing to deny

Heyman is Boras’s shill.  It’s tough to believe a word he says.  Many people think Heyman is on Boras’s payroll.

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, Jose Abreu said:

Not according to Heyman, who gets his info straight from Boras. He reported in June that the Sox made a last minute run at him after missing on Machado. Obviously, they failed, so it doesn't really matter, but the other poster is incorrect in saying that the Sox don't even negotiate with Boras. 

Don't sign his clients? Sure. But they absolutely negotiate, and it's a weird thing to deny

And all that could have been a negotiating ploy, nobody knows for sure how legitimate it was...just like the Rangers with A-Rod.  Most felt we simply were there to get used as a bogeyman to up his final contract numbers even though they were basically negotiating against themselves at that point.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Sure.  Just doesn't seem like a wise use of resources.  If the Sox signed Rendon, played him at 2B and moved Madrigal for a young stud SP, sure that works.

But the Sox future IF is set IMO.  The $ will be spent on starting pitching, a bullpen anchor, DH/1B type and perhaps a RF (I see them trading for the RF, personally). 

Yes, the only way signing rendon could be even remotely feasible is if they traded Madrigal. 

At that point, your overcomplicating things though. Just acquire the pitchers/RF with the money you have saved by using a young core of position talent.

[ChiSox59]

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

Boras fed Heyman some BS to increase the offers. The Sox were done with Harper right after their meeting. The Sox were used as leverage, again.

This was WELLLLLL after Harper had signed with the Phillies.  

[Jose Abreu]

Just now, Dick Allen said:

Boras fed Heyman some BS to increase the offers. The Sox were done with Harper right after their meeting. The Sox were used as leverage, again.

 

Just now, Moan4Yoan said:

Heyman is Boras’s shill.  It’s tough to believe a word he says.  Many people think Heyman is on Boras’s payroll.

 

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

And all that could have been a negotiating ploy, nobody knows for sure how legitimate it was...just like the Rangers with A-Rod.  Most felt we simply were there to get used as a bogeyman to up his final contract numbers even though they were basically negotiating against themselves at that point.

It's possible, but the fact that this was reported months after Harper signed suggests that there was nothing for Boras to gain in terms of leverage. That's why I believe it.

[Dick Allen]

2 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

 

 

It's possible, but the fact that this was reported months after Harper signed suggests that there was nothing for Boras to gain in terms of leverage. That's why I believe it.

It was to make the Phillies feel they weren't bidding against themselves. Boras has more clients. Philadelphia still has more money. The White Sox, who were more open about their Machado chase than ever before, had nothing to say about Harper except he cost too much. They didn't pursue him again. Ask wsd. He heard nothing about Harper after the December meeting, and while I am not a fan of his, his stuff was the most accurate last winter.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Dick Allen

[Moan4Yoan]

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

It was to make the Phillies feel they weren't bidding against themselves. Boras has more clients. Philadelphia still has more money.

How do people think Boras makes most of his money?!?

The mysterious MYSTERY TEAM of course!

And who tweets about these mystery teams more than anyone?  Heyman.

[caulfield12]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

When you have a finite number of resources, spending a large % of them on a position that is already occupied by your best player is a waste as you will never maximize your return.

The Sox have holes and weaknesses they need to fill. Those holes cost money to fill. When you spend money filling a hole that doesnt exist, you are not allocating your finite resources efficiently and effectively. The Sox would be better off signing 2 pitchers for what it would cost to sign Rendon. The White Sox do not need an infielder, therefore they shouldnt sign the most expensive one on the market. This really isnt difficult to understand. You invest in areas of opportunity, not the other way around.

Then why waste months and months on Machado when they already knew Moncada was moving there?

The areas of opportunity are playing Russian Roulette by selecting the right free agent pitchers and also extracting value from Tier B/C positional free agents in RF and DH...not exactly their forte.

Besides the fact that their biggest area of depth is minor league corner outfielders...which argues against a long term move there as well.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

3 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

 

 

It's possible, but the fact that this was reported months after Harper signed suggests that there was nothing for Boras to gain in terms of leverage. That's why I believe it.

If you have proof to the contrary they'll say it's fake. Theres honestly no point in arguing. They have their predisposed beliefs and nothing will change that.

[GermanSoxFan]

Rendon would be a pretty great 1B defensively and his bat more than plays there. Could be an option, even though you wouldn‘t maximize his value as a 1B.

 

The likelihood of that happening is llike the Sox winning the division this yer though.

Edited August 27, 2019 by GermanSoxFan

[Dick Allen]

Last winter, Buster Olney laughed when people thought the White Sox would sign a premier guy. He isn't a shock guy. He isn't a moron. Until Buster can't laugh anymore, having confidence the White Sox will actually convert on any player of this ilk has to be very low.

[Balta1701]

9 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Boras fed Heyman some BS to increase the offers. The Sox were done with Harper right after their meeting. The Sox were used as leverage, again.

The White Sox weren't even used as leverage, they weren't in the lists of teams being leaked as having met with Boras in February. That was the Giants, Phillies, Dodgers I believe. 

[GermanSoxFan]

4 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

How do people think Boras makes most of his money?!?

The mysterious MYSTERY TEAM of course!

And who tweets about these mystery teams more than anyone?  Heyman.

Boras is a genius, driving up the price MONTHS after the contract is signed.

[caulfield12]

Which comes first, breaking the $68 million barrier or signing a top Boras client in free agency?

 

[poppysox]

24 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

So talking about inane you are all for moving Anderson the established star at SS to the OF ( and for the record I would be too because it MIGHT be for the betterment of the team) but you want Moncada who is clearly the best player on the Sox to stay at 3rd because he played well there 1 year and crappy at 2nd base for 1 year. A year that his hitting was so bad it couldve affected his fielding for Madrigal a guy who hasn't proven anything yet.

I am not saying my ideas are the best course of action. My thinking is the Sox have to be flexible if they want to create ways to make the most of their payroll when we all know payroll concerns are among the things that will hurt the completion of the rebuild. You know its a big picture kind of view not tunnel vision

I like Anderson as well as the next guy but "established star" is a stretch.  What I am advocating is you need to move Moncada or for that matter Anderson...move them where you have a need which is right field.  

[RTC]

RTC poses hypothetical question: Giant can opened.  Worms everywhere.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Rendon was literally a natural second baseman most of his college and pro career until the Nats moved him.

The Sox don't need an infielder though so this is a pointless discussion.

Oh so the Nats moved Rendon what a novel concept and he just happened to become one of the best 3rd basemen in the majors . But yet Moncada shouldn't be moved to the OF or back to 2nd base because it might just so happen that it would improve the team greatly. But sure lets keep talking about the finite resources and for a team with a ton of payroll space. After all it's not about winning . I too like Madrigal but let's not pretend he is a sure thing and if Moncada becomes an OF or Rendon plays 3rd and Moncada OF that still leaves room for Madrigal at 2nd base. Plus they could still upgrade the pitching if Rendon was the only expensive position player they go after .

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

4 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Then why waste months and months on Machado when they already knew Moncada was moving there?

The areas of opportunity are playing Russian Roulette by selecting the right free agent pitchers and also extracting value from Tier B/C positional free agents in RF and DH...not exactly their forte.

Besides the fact that their biggest area of depth is minor league corner outfielders...which argues against a long term move there as well.

At the time, Madrigal had not proven anything in professional baseball. Machado could play third and Moncada would move back to 2nd. Or Machado could play SS, and Tim could play the OF.

Rendon can not play SS.

Over the past year, things have changed too. Players have gotten hurt (pitchers mostly) and position players have taken big steps forward (Madrigal, Tim and Yoan).