Free Agency - How confident are you?

[ChiSox59]

7 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

We can reconvene in the offseason.  I am still hoping for the best.  The Sox need to add a couple starters for sure.  I think we can agree on that.

For sure.  I'd love for it to be Cole or Strasburg, but even if the Sox are interested, they can't make those guys sign with Sox.   

Even if Cole and Strasburg sign elsewhere, that does not mean the offseason is a failure.  One of Wheeler, Ryu, Bumgarner, Keuchel + one of Wood, Odorizzi, Gibson, Pineda would certainly be a step in the right direction.   A lot also depends on how much they plan to ease Kopech into MLB action.  1 SP may be enough if they take the kid gloves off, but I think he opens in AAA - meaning 2 SP are needed.  Get a big stick in RF and/or 1B/DH, and you have a pretty good team once the young guns arrive in late April.

Edited August 29, 2019 by ChiSox59

[Jack Parkman]

15 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

For sure.  I'd love for it to be Cole or Strasburg, but even if the Sox are interested, they can't make those guys sign with Sox.   

Even if Cole and Strasburg sign elsewhere, that does not mean the offseason is a failure.  One of Wheeler, Ryu, Bumgarner, Keuchel + one of Wood, Odorizzi, Gibson, Pineda would certainly be a step in the right direction.   A lot also depends on how much they plan to ease Kopech into MLB action.  1 SP may be enough if they take the kid gloves off, but I think he opens in AAA - meaning 2 SP are needed.  Get a big stick in RF and/or 1B/DH, and you have a pretty good team once the young guns arrive in late April.

I still think Brandon Nimmo can be had. The Mets OF is crowded. If the Sox can trade for Nimmo, that would plug the hole in RF for the next 4 years potentially. 

With regard to FA, I want to believe that they're going to pull something significant off, but I'll believe it when I see it. I want to believe they understand that they can't do this rebuild completely from internal options, but you never know. One of the things I'm concerned about isn't that the Sox don't want to spend money, but....FA don't want to come here. 

[ChiSox59]

3 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I still think Brandon Nimmo can be had. The Mets OF is crowded. If the Sox can trade for Nimmo, that would plug the hole in RF for the next 4 years potentially. 

Yah, I mean, I think I've been the lead cheerleader on Nimmo.  He makes too much sense.  Just really tough to pinpoint what he'd cost.  If the Sox could get him without giving up any of their top 5 or so prospects, and perhaps even trim some of the 40 man while doing it, that would be great.

Perhaps something like Rutherford + Hansen + Pilkington or Lambert gets it done.  Not sure.  Assuming the obvious are off the table, I assure Mets would want Rutherford/Walker + Dunning/Stiever as the first two pieces.  

[mqr]

8 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

I assure Mets would want Rutherford/Walker + Dunning/Stiever as the first two pieces.  

Done

[Jose Abreu]

Stiever is someone I would sell high on. This would be a weird time to trade Dunning though. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

I just want to say that theres 0% chance Alex Wood gets 4 years 60 million. 0% 

[ChiSox59]

1 hour ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

I just want to say that theres 0% chance Alex Wood gets 4 years 60 million. 0% 

There is also no chance he evens gets that AAV on a 1 year deal.  WOOF

[South Side Fireworks Man]

18 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Gennett is fine to replace Yolmer and at least offers some upside...but these last few pages read like 2014~16 mode.

We had four core players...traded away young talent and got exactly nowhere with the likes of Robertson and Frazier.

It even feels like Shark back then was a bigger move than anyone but Cole Strasburg Wheeler and Bumgarner this time around.

And that bullpen still is shaky as long as they can't rely at all on Herrera.

This is what's troubling about having the current Sox front office, Jerry included, oversee this rebuild.

The Sox had a great core of Thomas, Ordonez, Lee, Konerko, Durham and couldn't build a winner around them.  If only they would have ponied up for another decent starting pitcher in those years (2000 -2004) instead of going without a competent 5th starter and cutting salary by dumping guys like Durham and Lofton for basically nothing.

In 2005, everything just came together, despite losing Ordonez, thanks to bringing in guys like AJ, Iguchi, and catching lightning in a bottle with the bullpen, so kudos to KW for that.  But despite it looking like the Sox were about to start a dynasty, they only made the playoffs once after that in 2008, barely getting in and then being eliminated in the first round.

Then the Sox had another good young core with guys like Sale, Quintana, Eaton, etc. but failed to build a winner around them either, instead surrounding them with washed up vets and B-level free agents.

Now they had the fans suffer through this rebuild to acquire another promising young core.  But if they once again fail to augment this core with top tier talent instead of half-assing it as usual, we will just be back where we started, maybe making the playoffs once in the next several years and not going very deep.

Here's hoping this time Jerry opens his wallet for top tier free agents and Hahn & Co. do a better job of identifying talent to bring in.  But don't hold your breath.  I'd feel much better about this rebuild with other people in charge.

 

[SonofaRoache]

7 minutes ago, South Side Fireworks Man said:

This is what's troubling about having the current Sox front office, Jerry included, oversee this rebuild.

The Sox had a great core of Thomas, Ordonez, Lee, Konerko, Durham and couldn't build a winner around them.  If only they would have ponied up for another decent starting pitcher in those years (2000 -2004) instead of going without a competent 5th starter and cutting salary by dumping guys like Durham and Lofton for basically nothing.

In 2005, everything just came together, despite losing Ordonez, thanks to bringing in guys like AJ, Iguchi, and catching lightning in a bottle with the bullpen, so kudos to KW for that.  But despite it looking like the Sox were about to start a dynasty, they only made the playoffs once after that in 2008, barely getting in and then being eliminated in the first round.

Then the Sox had another good young core with guys like Sale, Quintana, Eaton, etc. but failed to build a winner around them either, instead surrounding them with washed up vets and B-level free agents.

Now they had the fans suffer through this rebuild to acquire another promising young core.  But if they once again fail to augment this core with top tier talent instead of half-assing it as usual, we will just be back where we started, maybe making the playoffs once in the next several years and not going very deep.

Here's hoping this time Jerry opens his wallet for top tier free agents and Hahn & Co. do a better job of identifying talent to bring in.  But don't hold your breath.  I'd feel much better about this rebuild with other people in charge.

 

Had we signed B level free agents we wouldn't have needed a rebuild. Our FA track record is awful the last 7 years or so. Thankfully we only have positions that are red zones (RF and DH) and two rotation spots that must be locked up this offseason through FA.  

[poppysox]

35 minutes ago, South Side Fireworks Man said:

This is what's troubling about having the current Sox front office, Jerry included, oversee this rebuild.

The Sox had a great core of Thomas, Ordonez, Lee, Konerko, Durham and couldn't build a winner around them.  If only they would have ponied up for another decent starting pitcher in those years (2000 -2004) instead of going without a competent 5th starter and cutting salary by dumping guys like Durham and Lofton for basically nothing.

In 2005, everything just came together, despite losing Ordonez, thanks to bringing in guys like AJ, Iguchi, and catching lightning in a bottle with the bullpen, so kudos to KW for that.  But despite it looking like the Sox were about to start a dynasty, they only made the playoffs once after that in 2008, barely getting in and then being eliminated in the first round.

Then the Sox had another good young core with guys like Sale, Quintana, Eaton, etc. but failed to build a winner around them either, instead surrounding them with washed up vets and B-level free agents.

Now they had the fans suffer through this rebuild to acquire another promising young core.  But if they once again fail to augment this core with top tier talent instead of half-assing it as usual, we will just be back where we started, maybe making the playoffs once in the next several years and not going very deep.

Here's hoping this time Jerry opens his wallet for top tier free agents and Hahn & Co. do a better job of identifying talent to bring in.  But don't hold your breath.  I'd feel much better about this rebuild with other people in charge.

 

Scotty Pods was a big part of 2005.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

On 8/28/2019 at 2:56 PM, RTC said:

If “discounted price”, “bounce back”, “resigning for cheap”, “low OBP” or “always injured” are used by Hahn relative to any FA targets this winter he should be fired.  The time for that crap has passed.

Not necessarily.Look at how the Twins got so much better this year. Cruz 1 yr with option for $14.3M, Schoop, One year, $7.5MM ,Marwin Gonzalez, INF/OF: Two years, $21MM, Martin Perez, LHP: One year, $4MM (includes $500K buyout of 2020 club option) ,Claimed 1B C.J. Cron off waivers from the Rays and then a $4.8 M salary,Blake Parker, RHP: One year, $1.8MM

Total Spent including names I haven't listed and not including Cron's $4.8M is $49.4M .

 

We could also look at some starting pitchers signed by other teams who have had very good years for cheap like Wade Miley, LHP: one year, $4.5MM by Astros , Lance Lynn, RHP: three years, $30MM by Rangers, Mike Fiers, RHP: two years, $14.1MM by Oakland Brett Anderson, LHP: one year, $1.5MM by Oakland 2.5WAR for that salary.

We could also look at some position players . MVP candidate DJ LeMahieu, INF: Two years, $24MM  by the Yankees, Michael Brantley, OF: two years, $32MM by Astros, Mike Moustakas, 2B/3B: One year, $10MM, Yasmani Grandal, ? One year, $18.25MM (includes $2MM buyout on 2020 mutual option) by Brewers. I include him even at that salary because it's a short contract. Any time you can get an established star on a short contract , you do it, just like Astros did with Brantley or Braves did with Donaldson even though that contract was $23M for a year  Donaldson has been great for the Braves.

The problem is identifying them and using your tools to approach guys with things that might make them better like the Astros did with Verlander when they traded for him and Cole . We have yet to see the Sox have any strength in these areas.

I got much of this info from MLB Trade Rumors in their Offseason in review Series that review team acquisitions in the offseason in March.

Just to remind everyone I will include a few things from The Sox review from MLBTR .

Here’s White Sox executive vice president Kenny Williams attempting to defend the team’s eight-year, $250MM final offer (to Machado), as reported by Daryl Van Schouwen of the Chicago Sun-Times: “People are lost on the fact that on a yearly basis, our offer was more than San Diego’s. The average annual value was $31 [million] and change. So it was about years guaranteed. So there is an argument that could be made that our offer was the better of the two. It certainly had more upside for him. All he had to do was basically stay healthy.”  This is almost comical, as is Williams’ assertion that if the team had gone further financially, fans would have been “much more disappointed in our inability to keep this next core together.”  The key piece of that core, Eloy Jimenez, remains a minor leaguer for the purpose of gaining control of his 2025 season.  The team’s “next core” literally hasn’t reached the Majors yet, but giving Machado an extra two years would break it up?

Hahn’s claim that the Sox made a “very aggressive offer” is patently untrue.  With every large market team sitting out Machado’s market and the price coming in much lower than it could have been, the White Sox still never got close. 

There were words used in the article like ridiculous, comically, patently untrue ,strangely, fairly typical offseason,

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2019/03/offseason-in-review-chicago-white-sox-11.html

[WBWSF]

When the White Sox brought in Carson Fulmer last night, Steve Stone mentioned that Fulmer has to start taking advantage of being called up again. Stone said the 2020 rotation is going to be Giolito, Lopez, Cease, Kopech and probably Rodon and Dunning.  Some people seem to think that Stone has become a mouthpiece for JR and judging by his comments last night, he seemed like he was telling White Sox fans don't expect any pitchers to be added  via free agency.

[BackDoorBreach]

8 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

When the White Sox brought in Carson Fulmer last night, Steve Stone mentioned that Fulmer has to start taking advantage of being called up again. Stone said the 2020 rotation is going to be Giolito, Lopez, Cease, Kopech and probably Rodon and Dunning.  Some people seem to think that Stone has become a mouthpiece for JR and judging by his comments last night, he seemed like he was telling White Sox fans don't expect any pitchers to be added  via free agency.

Kopech is going to be on an innings limit and Rodon won't be back till after the ASB.

Dunning was in AA before he got hurt and will also be on a limit.  That wouldn't make any sense unless they plan on running out Covey as the 5th starter and have an opener or something some games.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

On 8/28/2019 at 2:49 PM, Harold's Leg Lift said:

I'd like them to find the next Scooter Gennett.

I'd like them to find the next Yordan Alvarez or Aristides Aquino like the Astros acquired Alvarez from the Dodgers .

Aquino was non-tendered by the Reds and became a free agent on November 30, 2018. He re-signed a minor league deal on December 3, 2018. So there was a small window to acquire him at a time when we had no production in right field.

[GermanSoxFan]

7 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

I'd like them to find the next Yordan Alvarez or Aristides Aquino like the Astros acquired Alvarez from the Dodgers .

Aquino was non-tendered by the Reds and became a free agent on November 30, 2018. He re-signed a minor league deal on December 3, 2018. So there was a small window to acquire him at a time when we had no production in right field.

Aquino was also kinda bad in his last two minor league seasons. I don't think you can fault them/or any other team for not jumping at the chance to sign a guy who had a .700ish OPS in his last two seasons. He never had much prospect pedigree either.

Edited September 3, 2019 by GermanSoxFan

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

7 minutes ago, GermanSoxFan said:

Aquino was also kinda bad in his last two minor league seasons. I don't think you can fault them/or any other team for not jumping at the chance to sign a guy who had a .700ish OPS in his last two seasons. He never had much prospect pedigree either.

You're probably right but isn't that what rebuilding teams do ? After all, we acquired Tilson, Palka ,Cordell, Gillaspie (not an OF ), LaMarre and probably a few I am missing during the rebuild. Who is out there trying to identify Dominican talent ? Notice anything all those guys I mentioned have in common ?

Edited September 3, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[fathom]

Just now, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

You're probably right but isn't that what rebuilding teams do ? After all we acquired Tilson, Palka ,Cordell, Gillaspie (not an OF ), LaMarre and probably a few I am missing during the rebuild.

You mean give Mercedes a chance instead of a retread in Skole?  I’m sure they will also try to make Covey a starter instead of seeing if he can make it as an Opener.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Just now, fathom said:

You mean give Mercedes a chance instead of a retread in Skole?  I’m sure they will also try to make Covey a starter instead of seeing if he can make it as an Opener.

Well I always thought that I was among the 1st here if not the 1st to start inquiring about Mercedes last year. David Ortiz and Edgar Martinez didn't become who they became until around the same age as Mercedes.  A 1.033 OPS kind of speaks for itself and for a team hurting for power you'd think they could find some room for him if they just got rid of Castillo. It's just the last month of the season. I also edited/added to that post above.

[fathom]

1 minute ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Well I always thought that I was among the 1st here if not the 1st to start inquiring about Mercedes last year. David Ortiz and Edgar Martinez didn't become who they became until around the same age as Mercedes.  A 1.033 OPS kind of speaks for itself and for a team hurting for power you'd think they could find some room for him if they just got rid of Castillo. It's just the last month of the season. I also edited/added to that post above.

They’ve shown no creativity the 2nd half of the year. A part of me thinks they got their hopes up they could compete after a solid first half, and that caused them to spend another month or so trying to win games instead of develop guys like Collins.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

7 minutes ago, fathom said:

They’ve shown no creativity the 2nd half of the year. A part of me thinks they got their hopes up they could compete after a solid first half, and that caused them to spend another month or so trying to win games instead of develop guys like Collins.

Nah they knew they couldn't compete . They would have to be blind to the holes in the starting staff to think that. I think it's they have no interest in winning a bunch more games because of the draft pick.

Edited September 3, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[fathom]

Just now, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Nah they knew they couldn't compete . They would have to be blind to the holes in the starting staff to think that. I think it's they have no interest in winning a bunch more games because of the draft pick.

They were definitely of the impression that they could be in the wild card hunt at the ASB.  They thought Cease would be an upgrade.

[GermanSoxFan]

22 minutes ago, fathom said:

They’ve shown no creativity the 2nd half of the year. A part of me thinks they got their hopes up they could compete after a solid first half, and that caused them to spend another month or so trying to win games instead of develop guys like Collins.

Yeah the lack of courage and creativity irks me the most. The Cardinals always give guys who produced in the upper minors extensive looks even when they are competing . That’s how they ended up with guys who had some good years in the majors like Allen Craig, Jose Martinez Paul Dejong and  Matt Adams.

[Bob Sacamano]

59 minutes ago, fathom said:

They were definitely of the impression that they could be in the wild card hunt at the ASB.  They thought Cease would be an upgrade.

Based on what, struggling in Triple-A?

Edited September 4, 2019 by soxfan2014

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

On 9/3/2019 at 4:11 PM, fathom said:

They were definitely of the impression that they could be in the wild card hunt at the ASB.  They thought Cease would be an upgrade.

I don't believe it for a second. I think you are fooling yourself. They aren't that stupid no matter how much I criticize them. Giolito was good the 1st half but who else was there ? Nova was bad the 1st half ,Lopez was bad, Banuelos was bad then got injured. Covey was bad, Rodon was bad then got hurt. Giolito and a rookie just coming up wouldn't make anyone think you could compete along with retreads like Depaigne and Detwiler.

Edited September 7, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside
no changes

[Jose Abreu]

Just now, Jack Parkman said:

Passan saying Strasburg likely to opt out. Surprised nobody beat me to this. 

This was posted last week because it's the article where he mentioned us being motivated for Cole and that Moncada and Giolito are extension candidates