The fragility of some fans on this board recently...

[mqr]

4 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

 When he was "going for it", the best he did was win 78 games. What has changed that makes you believe he is capable of picking the correct players to get the team over the top? Obviously, the Tatis trade was horrible, but coming in 2nd may have been the Shark trade. The Sox need pitchers. Hopefully trading for them isn't the option they choose.

The fact that they need to add WAY less from outside than they did in 2016

[GermanSoxFan]

Just now, mqr said:

The fact that they need to add WAY less from outside than they did in 2016

And the clubhouse was a huge mess. 

On paper the team was decent though, didn‘t PECOTA project them for 85 wins?

[Greg Hibbard]

8 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

 When he was "going for it", the best he did was win 78 games. What has changed that makes you believe he is capable of picking the correct players to get the team over the top? Obviously, the Tatis trade was horrible, but coming in 2nd may have been the Shark trade. The Sox need pitchers. Hopefully trading for them isn't the option they choose.

Do you really think RH had full control over what was going on during the 2016 campaign and leading up to it? Were the players all his guys/acquisitions?

[Chicago White Sox]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

If it only was that easy. I have waved my white flag as much as possible. Once the games get out of hand anymore, even if I am there, I am out of there. Up until last season I don't think, except for rain delays, I ever had left a White Sox game before it was over. I do it all the time now. 

But I have no confidence in management. They are trying to get in a position where they were before where adding correct pieces would lead to wins. They rarely add a correct piece. It's almost always wrong. Even the guys they miss out on, the Logan Morrison's of the world, were just wastes of money. Maybe they are due to be correct. That would be nice, but I don't think so.

And it’s totally fine you feel that way as this ownership group and front office haven’t done much to earn our trust.

The problem is when certain poster repeat ad nauseas that Hahn is the worst GM ever and is definitely going to fail this offseason.  Or when people imply the Sox are going to rock an $80M payroll next year because they claim Ivan Nova types are the best we will ever do in free agency.  It’s one thing to be cautious or even to have a negative outlook on certain things, it’s another to be completely irrational out of spite and start polluting the board with the same hate-filled takes over & over.  

This place has stopped becoming a message board for certain posters and purely an outlet to voice their anger & hate to the detriment of everyone else.  At some point that posting style just becomes selfish as it brings down the overall quality of the board and dissuades two way conversation.

[Greg Hibbard]

I guess in this whole thing I would counter that the White Sox organizationally were a very competitive team from 1990-2012. More often than not, they were above .500, and they won the division 4 times and won a world series. And yes, no need to start linking data about how historically bad this franchise is overall, I know. I have read it. However, I guess I would say that that the 23 seasons in which they routinely won 80 games and won 90 a handful of times, and the world series...that all means just a little bit more in terms of equity than the 6 bad seasons we have endured recently, which have required a great deal more patience.

Oddly, this 6 season timeframe is somewhat very similar to the 6 bad years before 1990, after the magical '83 season.

[ChiSox59]

8 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

And it’s totally fine you feel that way as this ownership group and front office haven’t done much to earn our trust.

The problem is when certain poster repeat ad nauseas that Hahn is the worst GM ever and is definitely going to fail this offseason.  Or when people imply the Sox are going to rock an $80M payroll next year because they claim Ivan Nova types are the best we will ever do in free agency.  It’s one thing to be cautious or even to have a negative outlook on certain things, it’s another to be completely irrational out of spite and start polluting the board with the same hate-filled takes over & over.  

This place has stopped becoming a message board for certain posters and purely an outlet to voice their anger & hate to the detriment of everyone else.  At some point that posting style just becomes selfish as it brings down the overall quality of the board and dissuades two way conversation.

This is a pretty good summary of this place.  Add in about 5-10 posters who add pretty much nothing of value but post about 15-20x a day, and you have a lot of BS to weed through to find the stuff that I try to come here for.  It's a shame.  

[Greg Hibbard]

21 minutes ago, Tony said:

I'm sorry, but this just isn't true, or at least how you're using the term "very competitive"

I agree with a lot of the points you're making in this thread, I tend to be somewhat optimistic but also a realistic based in what I believe is logic based decision making, so to say the White Sox as an organization has been very competitive is a huge stretch for me.  They've been an incredibly mediocre franchise since 1990, with a fantastic 2005 season snuck into the fold. I've said it time and time again if they would have at least made the playoffs in 2004 or 2006, that stretch would have seemed a lot different. But 2005 came and went so quickly, and since 2005, things have been BAD. 

Not a lot of other ways to skin that cat.  

Their combined record over those 23 seasons is 1925-1733. That's nearly 200 games over .500. Per season average (a bit hinky because of the strike) is 84 wins. (the average season is 84-75 - again hinky because of the strike).

How many other teams won an average of more than 84 games per season during that 23 year stretch?

Edit - double checked my math and I added something wrong so I fixed it.

Edited July 29, 2019 by Greg Hibbard

[Dick Allen]

34 minutes ago, Greg Hibbard said:

Do you really think RH had full control over what was going on during the 2016 campaign and leading up to it? Were the players all his guys/acquisitions?

Yes. His title is the same today as it was then. I don't but the good move Hahn, bad move KW line. Besides Hahn admitted one of if not his first move as GM, signing Keppinger was all him. KW opposed. 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

13 minutes ago, Tony said:

I'm sorry, but this just isn't true, or at least how you're using the term "very competitive"

I agree with a lot of the points you're making in this thread, I tend to be somewhat optimistic but also a realistic based in what I believe is logic based decision making, so to say the White Sox as an organization has been very competitive is a huge stretch for me.  They've been an incredibly mediocre franchise since 1990, with a fantastic 2005 season snuck into the fold. I've said it time and time again if they would have at least made the playoffs in 2004 or 2006, that stretch would have seemed a lot different. But 2005 came and went so quickly, and since 2005, things have been BAD. 

Not a lot of other ways to skin that cat. 

I mean, for a 20ish year period they had like the 5th most wins in baseball.

They had some bad luck a couple times - winning a lot of games and missing out. Their owner cost them one chance at a WS by leading a strike.

They were certainly competitive and pretty good. Every august and september It felt like the games mattered - even if they'd choke or etc. That's all you can ask as a fan really. They were competitive for 2 decades.

Edited July 29, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Dick Allen]

19 minutes ago, Greg Hibbard said:

I guess in this whole thing I would counter that the White Sox organizationally were a very competitive team from 1990-2012. More often than not, they were above .500, and they won the division 4 times and won a world series. And yes, no need to start linking data about how historically bad this franchise is overall, I know. I have read it. However, I guess I would say that that the 23 seasons in which they routinely won 80 games and won 90 a handful of times, and the world series...that all means just a little bit more in terms of equity than the 6 bad seasons we have endured recently, which have required a great deal more patience.

Oddly, this 6 season timeframe is somewhat very similar to the 6 bad years before 1990, after the magical '83 season.

2012 was quite a while ago. I think in JRs 39 seasons of ownership they average less than 1 win a season over .500. Mediocrity defined. 5 playoff appearance, 1 WS, the only seaon they won a playoff series. One odd thing, they've never been a wildcard team win the division or bust. 

[Greg Hibbard]

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

2012 was quite a while ago. I think in JRs 39 seasons of ownership they average less than 1 win a season over .500. Mediocrity defined. 5 playoff appearance, 1 WS, the only seaon they won a playoff series. One odd thing, they've never been a wildcard team win the division or bust. 

It's not at all odd to me. The AL east has been the WC representative more often than not because the Yankees and Red Sox almost always ate up two playoff spots. The second WC wasn't even around until 2012.

[mqr]

6 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

. One odd thing, they've never been a wildcard team win the division or bust. 

Well considering the AL east (Mostly either NY or BOS) has accounted for 90% of pre-two team wild cards. 

Edited July 29, 2019 by mqr

[Dick Allen]

3 minutes ago, mqr said:

Well considering the AL east (Mostly either NY or BOS) has accounted for 90% of pre-two team wild cards. 

You would think if they were so competitive for 23 years, they would have had one.  If you or anyone else is satisfied with how things are and have gone, good for you. I am just pointing out IMO, they have given the fanbase plenty to complain about, and I an as sick and tired of Lip b****ing about antine who hasn't done an interview with him as the next guy.

Edited July 29, 2019 by Dick Allen

[Greg Hibbard]

4 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

You would think if they were so competitive for 23 years, they would have had one.  If you or anyone else is satisfied with how things are and have gone, good for you. I am just pointing out IMO, they have given the fanbase plenty to complain about, and I an as sick and tired of Lip b****ing about antine who hasn't done an interview with him as the next guy.

They would have had one in 1990 if it existed at the time. Should we blame the organization on that too?

[Greg Hibbard]

2 minutes ago, Tony said:

No, I can ask more as a fan. Since 1990, they have made the playoffs 4 times. They play in a major media market. This isn't Cincinnati or Cleveland. 

Since 1990...

The Cubs have made the playoffs 8 times

The Twins have made the playoffs 8 times

The Indians have made the playoffs 11 times

The Reds have made the playoffs 5 times

The Tigers have made the playoffs 5 times 

Even the Orioles have been to the playoffs 5 times, that's in the AL East. 

Furthermore, the Rays have been around since 1998 and made the playoffs 4 times. 

My point is, as a fan, I can ask for more. 2005 was a long time ago. 

 

We have had a lot of near misses in close divisional races that we lost down the stretch (2003, 2011, 2012) and some of those other seasons had injury circumstances (2004) and 1994...we all know what happened there.

I also wonder how many of those precious playoff appearances the Tigers, Twins, Indians, Rays and Orioles would trade for a World Championship sometime in those years . 

 

[Greg Hibbard]

5 minutes ago, Tony said:

They would all trade them in for a WS victory, no doubt. And I'm incredibly thankful for 2005. 

But that was 2005. It's 2019, and I want more. I expect more. That doesn't make me a bad fan, it makes me not ok with mediocrity. 

I’m not ok with mediocrity, either. You seem to discount 2008 as a successful season. Was it not? Because that division title set the tone for the next three seasons, two of which were near misses. Robin’s first season was a near miss. Exactly what should they have done differently from 2006-2012?

[Baron]

59 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

And it’s totally fine you feel that way as this ownership group and front office haven’t done much to earn our trust.

The problem is when certain poster repeat ad nauseas that Hahn is the worst GM ever and is definitely going to fail this offseason.  Or when people imply the Sox are going to rock an $80M payroll next year because they claim Ivan Nova types are the best we will ever do in free agency.  It’s one thing to be cautious or even to have a negative outlook on certain things, it’s another to be completely irrational out of spite and start polluting the board with the same hate-filled takes over & over.  

This place has stopped becoming a message board for certain posters and purely an outlet to voice their anger & hate to the detriment of everyone else.  At some point that posting style just becomes selfish as it brings down the overall quality of the board and dissuades two way conversation.

The problem is when certain poster repeat ad nauseas that Hahn is the worst GM ever and is definitely going to fail this offseason

 

 

Who has said this? I know your probably referring to me I'm just wondering if your using hyperbole and pulling something out of thin air or if you actually have evidence. If you think this is bad you need to expand your horizons to other teams with even a few years of losing and the fanbase is absolutely furious. I think up until recently this forum has been very tame with the amount of losing this franchise has been doing lately. 

Edited July 29, 2019 by Baron

[caulfield12]

17 minutes ago, Greg Hibbard said:

We have had a lot of near misses in close divisional races that we lost down the stretch (2003, 2011, 2012) and some of those other seasons had injury circumstances (2004) and 1994...we all know what happened there.

I also wonder how many of those precious playoff appearances the Tigers, Twins, Indians, Rays and Orioles would trade for a World Championship sometime in those years . 

 

2010 they had a 26-5 run in the middle of the summer...2011 was Dunn’s disastrous first year, leading to Ozzie and Buehrle leaving.

[Greg Hibbard]

1 minute ago, Tony said:

Something, considering they only made the playoffs once during that seven year stretch. I guess as a fan, I just don't hang my hat on "near misses" and the run of past-their-prime acquisitions like Kevin Youkilis, Orlando Hudson, Manny Ramirez, Griffey and others. 

I see. I wonder how you would have done as a Yankees fan from 1982 to 1993.

[caulfield12]

8 minutes ago, Greg Hibbard said:

I’m not ok with mediocrity, either. You seem to discount 2008 as a successful season. Was it not? Because that division title set the tone for the next three seasons, two of which were near misses. Robin’s first season was a near miss. Exactly what should they have done differently from 2006-2012?

Well, Floyd, Danks, Alexei and Quentin were great while they lasted.

Then the Core 3 that we later traded to kick off the rebuild.

But drafting was largely abysmal and two of the most highly touted in Beckham and Viciedo flopped.  Then the biggest miss of all, Dunn.  

Another obvious point would be picking someone who really wanted to manage, not just a caretaker.

Not holding onto the 2005 core as long as they did, waiting for another miraculous series of acquisitions like the 2004-2005 cycle.

[mqr]

7 minutes ago, Tony said:

Something, considering they only made the playoffs once during that seven year stretch. I guess as a fan, I just don't hang my hat on "near misses" and the run of past-their-prime acquisitions like Kevin Youkilis, Orlando Hudson, Manny Ramirez, Griffey and others. 

What do you call what they're doing now?

[caulfield12]

6 minutes ago, Greg Hibbard said:

I see. I wonder how you would have done as a Yankees fan from 1982 to 1993.

That’s easy, you had hope the owner would eventually get tired of losing to the Blue Jays...with unlimited resources.  And you had your unprecedented 22 World Series titles or whatever the number to reminisce about.  As well as the dreams of a new baseball cathedral to replace aging Yankee Stadium.  And Donnie Baseball.

Edited July 29, 2019 by caulfield12

[Chicago White Sox]

2 hours ago, Baron said:

I'll be condescending. That's a stupid argument. If you don't see the obvious replies to that I can't help you. 

Why is it a stupid argument?  Sports are all about hope and if you have none, then why the fuck would you submit yourself to this torture?  No offense, but that’s just fucking dumb IMO.

I consider myself as big of a Sox fan as anyone here, but there are times I just have to tell myself “fuck this” and take a breather.  When Kopech went down with TJS I simply did not have the ability to follow the White Sox and get any joy out of it.  I stopped watching games, I stopped checking box scores, and I stopped coming here.  After a couple months, my White Sox itch become too prevalent to ignore and I finally came back with a more positive, level-headed perspective.

Long-story short, if the Sox provide you with absolutely no hope and nothing but resentment, then find something else to occupy your time.  And this really isn’t intended to be directed at you Baron, but SoxTalk is meant to be a forum for two way conversation, not an outlet to whine & b**** over the same shit day after day.  I get the need to lash out at times, but once all your contributions become the same hate-filled rhetoric then people get the fuck out of here for everyone else’s sake.

[Baron]

11 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Why is it a stupid argument?  Sports are all about hope and if you have none, then why the fuck would you submit yourself to this torture?  No offense, but that’s just fucking dumb IMO.

I consider myself as big of a Sox fan as anyone here, but there are times I just have to tell myself “fuck this” and take a breather.  When Kopech went down with TJS I simply did not have the ability to follow the White Sox and get any joy out of it.  I stopped watching games, I stopped checking box scores, and I stopped coming here.  After a couple months, my White Sox itch become too prevalent to ignore and I finally came back with a more positive, level-headed perspective.

Long-story short, if the Sox provide you with absolutely no hope and nothing but resentment, then find something else to occupy your time.  And this really isn’t intended to be directed at you Baron, but SoxTalk is meant to be a forum for two way conversation, not an outlet to whine & b**** over the same shit day after day.  I get the need to lash out at times, but once all your contributions become the same hate-filled rhetoric then people get the fuck out of here for everyone else’s sake.

Your assuming I believe they have no hope which makes the argument stupid. There's always hope. Just because I think our General Manager does more harm than good doesn't mean that eventually someone won't take over that won't turn this team completely around. I've been a Chicago Bears fan all my life. In a short time that team went from a laughing stock with Marc Trestman and Phil Emery to Matt Nagy and Ryan Pace. Is Jerry as quick to pull the trigger as George is for the Bears? Absolutely not. But he'll get there at some point. Until then I'll be along for the ride with the players that are getting sick of losing and are trying hard to win.

Excuse me but I just absolutely hate the post police. You want to know what will change in this forum? When the team finally decides it's time to win.I guarantee you it'll do a 180. Give the "look what I'm doing and you'll be fine!" stuff a break. I don't think anyone here needs to be told how to run their life or when to talk about their favorite team. 

Edited July 29, 2019 by Baron

[Chicago White Sox]

27 minutes ago, Baron said:

The problem is when certain poster repeat ad nauseas that Hahn is the worst GM ever and is definitely going to fail this offseason

 

 

Who has said this? I know your probably referring to me I'm just wondering if your using hyperbole and pulling something out of thin air or if you actually have evidence. If you think this is bad you need to expand your horizons to other teams with even a few years of losing and the fanbase is absolutely furious. I think up until recently this forum has been very tame with the amount of losing this franchise has been doing lately. 

I wasn’t referring to you.  You don’t post the same shit 20x a day like the posters I’m referring to.