Madrigal Promoted to AAA

[SonofaRoache]

38 minutes ago, Capital G said:

I am pretty much in the middle of this. I get having them come up to get some MLB experience. I get keeping them down to save a year of service.

But I am not so sure your argument is why I would bring them up. As you stated, Eloy has been here since day 1 and he's still struggling at the plate. Gio struggled all of last year. Moncada too. Do you think bringing up Madrigal and Robert for a couple months will make that big of a difference in how they will play in '20 when it took Gio/Yo a year and Eloy hopefully a year?

IMO if Madrigal and Robert succeed right out the gate in '20 it wont be bc we brought them up to the majors for a month/2months. It'll be bc they simply adjusted to MLB quicker than the above mentioned.

Actually I think it does with Robert. If it takes hom a year to figure it out, that would mean he would be ready to shine next august and into the playoffs. I also like the idea of having an offseason to get to know the guys, the city, and work on things that were troublesome in his 2 month stint. The service time argument makes sense, but I stipp think you'd be handing over a playoff run in 2020 for an unknown 2026. 

[SCCWS]

30 minutes ago, SonofaRoache said:

Actually I think it does with Robert. If it takes hom a year to figure it out, that would mean he would be ready to shine next august and into the playoffs. I also like the idea of having an offseason to get to know the guys, the city, and work on things that were troublesome in his 2 month stint. The service time argument makes sense, but I stipp think you'd be handing over a playoff run in 2020 for an unknown 2026. 

I really think it comes down to the player.  As least w positional players, some make the jump from AA to majors and seem to belong.  We have seen almost all of our prospects so far go through a learning curve arriving from AAA.  probably most MLB prospects do. Maybe the Red Sox, Houston, Yankees, Dodgers etc. have better AAA coaching or stronger roving instructors since they seem to bring "some" prospects up who look like they belong on day 1. 

[ptatc]

5 minutes ago, SCCWS said:

I really think it comes down to the player.  As least w positional players, some make the jump from AA to majors and seem to belong.  We have seen almost all of our prospects so far go through a learning curve arriving from AAA.  probably most MLB prospects do. Maybe the Red Sox, Houston, Yankees, Dodgers etc. have better AAA coaching or stronger roving instructors since they seem to bring "some" prospects up who look like they belong on day 1. 

I wonder if some of the adjustments with Sox prospects is from the parks they play in. The AA seems difficult to hit in then the AAAc seems easy to hit in. After making those adjustments they need to normalize their approach at the MLB.

[caulfield12]

21 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I wonder if some of the adjustments with Sox prospects is from the parks they play in. The AA seems difficult to hit in then the AAAc seems easy to hit in. After making those adjustments they need to normalize their approach at the MLB.

Some would argue that it would be better if Birmingham was more of a hitter's park (or at least the Southern League in general, compared with Texas), with Charlotte having much smaller dimensions.

One way or the other, though...you need to assess your talent realistically, and that jump from High A to AA has always been THE dividing line between real prospects and suspects.  We've witnessed it this season with the struggles of Luis Gonzalez, Basabe and Rutherford.  Otoh, you can definitely see the positive progression with Sheets, to the point where he's a legitimate candidate for 1B/DH in the next 18 months.

The Dodgers, for example...always had this issue with Albuquerque and San Antonio, but one could argue that the gaudy offensive numbers put up there only padded their prospect status.  Over the decades, scouts started to doubt those external ratings, but they've brought up stud after stud after stud beginning around 2010 or 2011. 

(If we wanted to trade any of our four outfielders, including Adolfo, their value would be 30-50 cents on the dollar.)

Edited August 5, 2019 by caulfield12

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

On 8/2/2019 at 10:43 AM, ChiSox59 said:

I for one am glad the FO isn’t rushing this thing because the 24-26 seasons “are not that important”. 

They are trying to build a team for sustained success and a big part of that is spreading out free agency and having waves of talent. 

I am okay being patient, but admit it all changes come May 2020, and they damn better flex their financial flexibility this offseason. 

They really aren't that important. You can't built a team for 24-26 now but you can build a team from the present through 2023. Sustained success is bullshit man.  You are believing the smoke they are blowing up your ass. Win a damn World Series . That's the main goal . Have they put the resources into building sustained success ? Nope. Sustained success means you are relying on the farm to consistently produce talent. Do they have 75 high speed cameras throughout the system like the Astros ? Do they have an extra minor league team ? Do they consistently spend all their intl. bonus pool money ? Do they have a thorough analytics dept ?

The Sox are still a huge question mark in terms of knowing what to do with young talent and a huge question mark on drafting and development. They have no idea how to approach free agents. Can you imagine the Sox blowing away a free agent pitcher the way the Astro's did Gerrit Cole after they traded for him  ? Commit the funds and resources to develop young talent and I might believe you are serious about sustained success . Also if serious about contending why not have your best players prepared and on the field immediately in 2020 ? Why let the 2 of them miss a combined 40 games or so waiting for the correct date to be called up ? Does that sound like a team that wants to win? Isn't the point of spending big this off season to start the contention window next year ? If so why turn around and take your best players purposely out of the lineup ?

The info about the Astro's is contained in a book titled The MVP Machine: How Baseball’s New Nonconformists Are Using Data to Build Better Players by The Ringer’s Ben Lindbergh and FiveThirtyEight’s Travis Sawchik. Here is a link to a review of it https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2019/6/12/18661954/astros-lindbergh-sawchik-mvp-machine

Edited August 5, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[caulfield12]

34 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

They really aren't that important. You can't built a team for 24-26 now but you can build a team from the present through 2023. Sustained success is bullshit man.  You are believing the smoke they are blowing up your ass. Win a damn World Series . That's the main goal . Have they put the resources into building sustained success ? Nope. Sustained success means you are relying on the farm to consistently produce talent. Do they have 75 high speed cameras throughout the system like the Astros ? Do they have an extra minor league team ? Do they consistently spend all their intl. bonus pool money ? Do they have a thorough analytics dept ?

The Sox are still a huge question mark in terms of knowing what to do with young talent and a huge question mark on drafting and development. They have no idea how to approach free agents. Can you imagine the Sox blowing away a free agent pitcher the way the Astro's did Gerrit Cole after they traded for him  ? Commit the funds and resources to develop young talent and I might believe you are serious about sustained success . Also if serious about contending why not have your best players prepared and on the field immediately in 2020 ? Why let the 2 of them miss a combined 40 games or so waiting for the correct date to be called up ? Does that sound like a team that wants to win? Isn't the point of spending big this off season to start the contention window next year ? If so why turn around and take your best players purposely out of the lineup ?

The info about the Astro's is contained in a book titled The MVP Machine: How Baseball’s New Nonconformists Are Using Data to Build Better Players by The Ringer’s Ben Lindbergh and FiveThirtyEight’s Travis Sawchik. Here is a link to a review of it https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2019/6/12/18661954/astros-lindbergh-sawchik-mvp-machine

Sawchik also wrote one on the Pirates three years ago, at that time about defensive shifts, pitch framing and starting pitchers allowing more balls to be out into play by focusing on more low two-seam fastballs paired with Gold Glove level defense on the infield.

https://www.amazon.com/Big-Data-Baseball-Miracles-20-Year/dp/1250094259

 

it would be one thing if we had a proven track record of success...but sacrificing one more year from Moncada and Giolito isn’t likely to end well for Sox fans.  

Or just ask the Nationals if they would treat Strasburg in the same way if he departs the franchise this offseason without a World Series title on his resume. 

[kitekrazy]

The Nationals always remind me of an NFL that plays a good season but just choke in the playoffs.

[Bananarchy]

On 8/4/2019 at 7:50 AM, Jack Parkman said:

Ok, counterargument: Why do you want to waste a season of Moncada and Giolito's prime, by waiting for Robert and Madrigal to make adjustments? Why not get those growing pains out of the way before they matter? The Sox are past the time in the rebuild to worry about service time considerations. The goal now is to get as many good players performing at a high level on the team simultaneously. 

This is a completely different scenario from last year with Eloy. In 2018, the Sox didn't have an established core group of players. In 2019 they do. Huge, massive, gigantic difference. If the Sox keep playing service time games they're going to inadvertently shorten their window because there's always going to be a hole here or there in the lineup or rotation because somebody's going through growing pains. If you have a chance to avoid that, why wouldn't you? 

Players that will be here in 2020: 

Moncada

Giolito

Lopez 

Kopech

Players that are all free agents before 2026: 

Moncada

Giolito

Lopez 

Kopech 

 

Think about this long and hard before playing silly games with service time. If they bring up Robert in late August and Madrigal in September, they have a chance to be the 2015 Cubs in 2020. If they don't, it is likely 2020 is another rebuilding year. Eloy has been here since day 1 and he's still struggling at the plate, as well as showing promise. Do you really want to go through that all season with Robert next year? 

If we were a Luis Robert away from contention, I would maybe feel differently.  However, we're not.  

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

39 minutes ago, Eloy Jiménez said:

If we were a Luis Robert away from contention, I would maybe feel differently.  However, we're not.  

Of course we aren't but you add Madrigal also and some quality FA arms a RF etc. who is to say they don't have a shot at the playoffs? Id gladly take Rendon and move Moncada back to 2nd base or even let Rendon play 2nd base. Scooter Gennett , MadBum, Strasburg if he opts out, Wheeler , Betances plenty of decent options out there. Have to use that payroll flexibility sooner than later.

Sustained success is a lie. Make a run at winning a title in the next 5 years starting next year.

[Bananarchy]

On 8/5/2019 at 11:00 PM, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Sustained success is a lie. Make a run at winning a title in the next 5 years starting next year.

This is below Greg 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

4 hours ago, Eloy Jiménez said:

This is below Greg 

Not sure what you mean .

[zisk]

On ‎8‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 11:00 PM, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Of course we aren't but you add Madrigal also and some quality FA arms a RF etc. who is to say they don't have a shot at the playoffs? Id gladly take Rendon and move Moncada back to 2nd base or even let Rendon play 2nd base. Scooter Gennett , MadBum, Strasburg if he opts out, Wheeler , Betances plenty of decent options out there. Have to use that payroll flexibility sooner than later.

Sustained success is a lie. Make a run at winning a title in the next 5 years starting next year.

Robert,Madrigal and Vaughn will all be added in 2020. Seems to me that we'll have as potent an offense as any one. Sign a real starter and give him 4-5 years.

Might miss the playoffs next year, but you never know. 2021 we'll be knee deep in pitching as well.

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, zisk said:

Robert,Madrigal and Vaughn will all be added in 2020. Seems to me that we'll have as potent an offense as any one. Sign a real starter and give him 4-5 years.

Might miss the playoffs next year, but you never know. 2021 we'll be knee deep in pitching as well.

Can’t see Vaughn being up until August...and then you’re right back in the middle of the same service time debate.

They will either have to add at the deadline or bring him up if they’re in roughly the same position the Giants were in at the deadline.

No more wasted seasons can be tolerated.   Fall short of the playoffs, fine, but at least put yourself in the best position to win, which is the same thing a number of other mid market teams (even the Jays, who are well out of any race) are doing.

[Bob Sacamano]

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

Can’t see Vaughn being up until August...and then you’re right back in the middle of the same service time debate.

They will either have to add at the deadline or bring him up if they’re in roughly the same position the Giants were in at the deadline.

No more wasted seasons can be tolerated.   Fall short of the playoffs, fine, but at least put yourself in the best position to win, which is the same thing a number of other mid market teams (even the Jays, who are well out of any race) are doing.

If they're competitive next year and Vaughn is tearing it up, I can see a late July/August callup. Depends on how the current 1B/DH situation is doing though.

[Balta1701]

3 hours ago, soxfan2014 said:

If they're competitive next year and Vaughn is tearing it up, I can see a late July/August callup. Depends on how the current 1B/DH situation is doing though.

If Vaughn gets off to a good start at AA next year I want him up ASAP, maybe as early as May. 

Advanced bat, destroyed college, plays fairly easy defensive position, once he proves capable at hitting AA pitching next year, what more will he have to learn in the minors?

[SoxBlanco]

Just now, Balta1701 said:

If Vaughn gets off to a good start at AA next year I want him up ASAP, maybe as early as May. 

Advanced bat, destroyed college, plays fairly easy defensive position, once he proves capable at hitting AA pitching next year, what more will he have to learn in the minors?

Do you think Vaughn will start in AA?

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, SoxBlanco said:

Do you think Vaughn will start in AA?

If he's decent at W-S over the next month and he looks ok in Spring Training...I would. What the White Sox will do I don't know, but I want to see him at AA as soon as his performance justifies it. 

And FWIW, I've been way more conservative about calling for people being called up than the White Sox have been, like 75% of their callups I say "This is too early". I cannot remember any player we've drafted that I publicly said "Rush this guy!" Maybe back to the gordon beckham days? So me saying all this about Vaughn...this is unusual for me. I feel half weird about it, but this player we should push as aggressively as his numbers allow.