poppysox Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 21 minutes ago, Jake said: FWIW, I think Jose is extremely popular among Sox fans in general Very few Sox fans would disagree. If we get overpaid...that of course is a different story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogan873 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 35 minutes ago, Jake said: FWIW, I think Jose is extremely popular among Sox fans in general I agree that he's well liked by the fans in general. On this board, though, there's a lot of dislike towards him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 20 minutes ago, hogan873 said: I agree that he's well liked by the fans in general. On this board, though, there's a lot of dislike towards him. To be honest, its really only a few people. Abreu is a very talented hitter, but he is the type of player that has been losing value around the league for some time now. He's just not a guy you need to pay $15M+ a year to on the open market. I do think the Sox eventually pay him a little more than they need to, and he gets extended or resigns for a 2 year $24-26M deal to stay with the Sox. I honestly think 2/$18M should get it done, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamaDoc Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 (edited) Post playing days, I wonder if Jose would have interest in any kind of organizational position post baseball. An aide to the guys who come from Latin America/Carribean? Some what continuing in a mentorship role. Maybe around the big club when they are at home and minors when they are on the road. If he doesn't want that time commitment, he could still be an ambassador and do the spring training visit and a few during the season etc. Edited June 18, 2019 by BamaDoc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mqr Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, hogan873 said: I agree that he's well liked by the fans in general. On this board, though, there's a lot of dislike towards him. There's a huge difference between disliking a guy and thinking it's time to cut bait before things get real ugly. He's an aging, one dimensional player whose one dimension has just been pretty solid, not anything approaching elite. Edited June 18, 2019 by mqr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogan873 Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 5 minutes ago, mqr said: There's a huge difference between disliking a guy and thinking it's time to cut bait before things get real ugly. There's really no evidence that things are going to get real ugly soon. He's hitting for more power this year and is bringing his average back up closer to where we'd expect it to be. I think it's safe to have the guy around for another 2 years, especially considering the young talent coming into the fold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mqr Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, hogan873 said: There's really no evidence that things are going to get real ugly soon. He's hitting for more power this year and is bringing his average back up closer to where we'd expect it to be. I think it's safe to have the guy around for another 2 years, especially considering the young talent coming into the fold. He's been floating between a 110-120 wRC+ for a year and half now. That's already pretty close to useless for player like abreu. If it get's any worse, and it likely will get worse next year or the year after, he becomes an active hindrance. If he goes on an absolute tear the next month or two I'll rethink this, but right now there's no way I give him more than a year + team option. Edited June 18, 2019 by mqr 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Hibbard Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, mqr said: He's been floating between a 110-120 wRC+ for a year and half now. That's already pretty close to useless for player like abreu. If it get's any worse, and it likely will get worse next year or the year after, he becomes an active hindrance. If he goes on an absolute tear the next month or two I'll rethink this, but right now there's no way I give him more than a year + team option. He is 66th out of 157th qualified over at Fangraphs in wRC+. That’s not useless, IMO. I think the mantra we have gotten used to in evaluating players like Jose in this era is looking at how bad they are defensively and saying that they gotta somehow be completely elite offensively to offset that; ie if Jose is not a 4-6 WAR player offsetting the defensive liabilities, he’s “bad”. However, there are a ton of players in exactly his boat that I don’t think are bad. And, really, is the defensive component offsetting it that much? ”Bad defense” is also incredibly tough to quantify the impact of. Certain errors are utterly meaningless, whereas other errors open the door to runs or even losses, but also if we look at fangraphs team defensive metric stats, a lot of them make zero sense. Certain teams make up for bad range with one player with excellent range from another, ie Luis Robert might make Eloy Jimenez more passable defensively. The Twins are one of the worst defensively rated teams and yet they have that sterling record. Conversely, the Diamondbacks have the best rating in terms of team defense but they’re not much better than our Sox in the standings. jose is a 1.2 fWAR player today. If he ends up being a 3 WAR player (not that much of a tear to go on and his BABIP is still below career, and it’s not even hot out yet) I just think what you have is still a solid reliable option for 2 more years. I think is floor is certainly still heigher than a player like Yonder “Look Out Below” Alonso. Edited June 18, 2019 by Greg Hibbard 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Greg Hibbard said: He is 66th out of 157th qualified over at Fangraphs in wRC+. That’s not useless, IMO. I think the mantra we have gotten used to in evaluating players like Jose in this era is looking at how bad they are defensively and saying that they gotta somehow be completely elite offensively to offset that; ie if Jose is not a 4-6 WAR player offsetting the defensive liabilities, he’s “bad”. However, there are a ton of players in exactly his boat that I don’t think are bad. And, really, is the defensive component offsetting it that much? ”Bad defense” is also incredibly tough to quantify the impact of. Certain errors are utterly meaningless, whereas other errors open the door to runs or even losses, but also if we look at fangraphs team defensive metric stats, a lot of them make zero sense. Certain teams make up for bad range with one player with excellent range from another, ie Luis Robert might make Eloy Jimenez more passable defensively. The Twins are one of the worst defensively rated teams and yet they have that sterling record. Conversely, the Diamondbacks have the best rating in terms of team defense but they’re not much better than our Sox in the standings. jose is a 1.2 fWAR player today. If he ends up being a 3 WAR player (not that much of a tear to go on and his BABIP is still below career, and it’s not even hot out yet) I just think what you have is still a solid reliable option for 2 more years. I think is floor is certainly still heigher than a player like Yonder “Look Out Below” Alonso. I agree with everything you posted except after watching Jose lumber around 1B for the last half a decade I think we can conclude he's one of the worst defensive 1B in all MLB and costs the sox about 10 runs every year that a really good 1B would prevent. That's about 1 WAR and it's why Jose's bat needs to be better than just "good" for him to be anything more than a decent regular. The Sox might be in a position where it's smart to pay him like a decent regular. But the market rate for decent DHs isn't much. Edited June 18, 2019 by chitownsportsfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcq Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 10 hours ago, Quin said: Can we cut the shit about Cubans lying about their age? The island is heavily scouted, especially with international play. I know that as a KU basketball fan, @greg775 is used to sports teams lying about anything and everything to get an advantage, but this shit is old and isn't unique to Cuba. American athletes have lied about their ages. I think it is more common in the DR. It is harder to do in places where they keep good records. I heard Scary Spice knocked a couple years off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 1 hour ago, chitownsportsfan said: I agree with everything you posted except after watching Jose lumber around 1B for the last half a decade I think we can conclude he's one of the worst defensive 1B in all MLB and costs the sox about 10 runs every year that a really good 1B would prevent. That's about 1 WAR and it's why Jose's bat needs to be better than just "good" for him to be anything more than a decent regular. The Sox might be in a position where it's smart to pay him like a decent regular. But the market rate for decent DHs isn't much. A decent regular is needed until Vaughn get here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 15 hours ago, hogan873 said: I don't think I've ever seen so much distaste for a player by a group of fans. Let me rephrase that: I haven't seen this much distaste for a good player. It just drives me crazy. It's like the stat people just have to prove how smarter they are than traditional stat peeps by insisting Jose blows. They find an advanced stat and won't consider homers and RBIs at all. I've said it before I worship Jose Abreu in the baseball sense of the word and considering my disdain for what I consider a cheap owner, I wouldn't be upset if we signed him four years at 16 mill a year. Again it's not my cash. I think a fair deal would be 3 years 39 million. Jose is a masher! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulie4Pres Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 I may not be this savvy advanced stats guru, but, isn't Abreu leading the AL in RBIs? On the...10th ranked offense in the AL? Advanced stats be damned. Guys that drive in runs like he does, on a pretty average offensive team, are kind of valuable... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 6 hours ago, greg775 said: It just drives me crazy. It's like the stat people just have to prove how smarter they are than traditional stat peeps by insisting Jose blows. They find an advanced stat and won't consider homers and RBIs at all. I've said it before I worship Jose Abreu in the baseball sense of the word and considering my disdain for what I consider a cheap owner, I wouldn't be upset if we signed him four years at 16 mill a year. Again it's not my cash. I think a fair deal would be 3 years 39 million. Jose is a masher! I was with you all the way until " four years at 16 mill a year." I would like to see 2 or 3 years at 10 to 12 mill. At our best we might have 150-175 million to spread around those 25 players. Need to pay fairly but not overpay. Like most players... Jose is a great power & RBI guy but has his shortcomings. Another year at 1st base and another year or two at DH while Vaughn prepares himself. However RH handles it...I think it's an absolute must that Abreu signs an extension or gets traded. He is a good asset and those can't be allowed to just walk away at the end of his contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogan873 Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 7 hours ago, greg775 said: It just drives me crazy. It's like the stat people just have to prove how smarter they are than traditional stat peeps by insisting Jose blows. They find an advanced stat and won't consider homers and RBIs at all. I've said it before I worship Jose Abreu in the baseball sense of the word and considering my disdain for what I consider a cheap owner, I wouldn't be upset if we signed him four years at 16 mill a year. Again it's not my cash. I think a fair deal would be 3 years 39 million. Jose is a masher! To a point, I think advanced stats are ruining baseball. To a point. I can understand a team (those making the decisions) scouring over stats and making the best moves based on what the stats are telling them. That makes sense. But when fans will scour the advanced stats to find a reason to say a player is terrible when all the basic stats say otherwise...that's a different story. My point about Jose was that there is no one in the Sox system that will produce as he is right now and should produce for a couple more years. There's not a lot of guys out there the Sox could sign or trade for that could produce like Jose is producing; not for less money, that is. He's on pace to lead the team in HRs and RBIs, and he's a leader on and off the field. He's made it clear he wants to play here. If the Sox can sign him for another 2 years at $12M per or so, he'd be worth it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitekrazy Posted June 19, 2019 Share Posted June 19, 2019 11 hours ago, greg775 said: It just drives me crazy. It's like the stat people just have to prove how smarter they are than traditional stat peeps by insisting Jose blows. They find an advanced stat and won't consider homers and RBIs at all. I've said it before I worship Jose Abreu in the baseball sense of the word and considering my disdain for what I consider a cheap owner, I wouldn't be upset if we signed him four years at 16 mill a year. Again it's not my cash. I think a fair deal would be 3 years 39 million. Jose is a masher! Post of the week! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 14 hours ago, poppysox said: I was with you all the way until " four years at 16 mill a year." I would like to see 2 or 3 years at 10 to 12 mill. At our best we might have 150-175 million to spread around those 25 players. Need to pay fairly but not overpay. Like most players... Jose is a great power & RBI guy but has his shortcomings. Another year at 1st base and another year or two at DH while Vaughn prepares himself. However RH handles it...I think it's an absolute must that Abreu signs an extension or gets traded. He is a good asset and those can't be allowed to just walk away at the end of his contract. I said 4 years 16 mill a year just cause i'm mad at Jerry and would be OK with nice guy Jose getting some of his money. But I'm more like 12 or 13 mill a year for 3 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted June 20, 2019 Share Posted June 20, 2019 3 minutes ago, greg775 said: I said 4 years 16 mill a year just cause i'm mad at Jerry and would be OK with nice guy Jose getting some of his money. But I'm more like 12 or 13 mill a year for 3 years. Yeah...I brainwashed into watching out that someone gets some of Jerry's money they don't deserve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GermanSoxFan Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 Abreu is 21st out of 26 qualifying 1B in baseball in WRC+, 21st in WAR. 24th in OBP. He is 13th in slugging. The problem is that the FA market for 1B is pretty barren this year, unless they would ask someone like Castellanos to play first. I guess the best bet is to sign him to a 1yr deal and move on from him once Vaughn is ready. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron883 Posted June 24, 2019 Author Share Posted June 24, 2019 On 6/16/2019 at 5:38 PM, Greg Hibbard said: Since this thread went up, Jose is 10/17 with 2 doubles and a homer but I’m sure it’s extraordinarily concerning to Ron that he hasn’t been able to elevate his pathetic .588 batting average to a higher obp with any walks over that timeframe How's he doing now? Jose is on one of his patented ice cold streaks where he is complete garbage. We don't need Jose past this season. Vaughn may be a better hitter than him NOW 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron883 Posted June 24, 2019 Author Share Posted June 24, 2019 43 minutes ago, GermanSoxFan said: Abreu is 21st out of 26 qualifying 1B in baseball in WRC+, 21st in WAR. 24th in OBP. He is 13th in slugging. The problem is that the FA market for 1B is pretty barren this year, unless they would ask someone like Castellanos to play first. I guess the best bet is to sign him to a 1yr deal and move on from him once Vaughn is ready. The Abreu hero worshipping on here is sickening. You may very well be public enemy #1 for posting facts like this around here. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 3 hours ago, ron883 said: The Abreu hero worshipping on here is sickening. You may very well be public enemy #1 for posting facts like this around here. Our lineup would be so bad without Abreu. In your hatred of him do you realize how hard it's been on him for years with such a pathetic lineup and so little protection around here? Do you realize how tough it is to hit year after year when the team blows so badly? Just give Abreu his $$$s and forget about it. Better he get some money than Jerry pocket even more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ron883 Posted June 24, 2019 Author Share Posted June 24, 2019 36 minutes ago, greg775 said: Our lineup would be so bad without Abreu. In your hatred of him do you realize how hard it's been on him for years with such a pathetic lineup and so little protection around here? Do you realize how tough it is to hit year after year when the team blows so badly? Just give Abreu his $$$s and forget about it. Better he get some money than Jerry pocket even more. He does just fine when the team he bad. Jose is King of hitting when there is no pressure. The guy was worth 1.2 fWAR last year and has been worth 0.3 fWAR this year. He just isn't that good! Sub 800 OPS this year. You replace him with Palka or Collins and not much changes IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 31 minutes ago, ron883 said: He does just fine when the team he bad. Jose is King of hitting when there is no pressure. The guy was worth 1.2 fWAR last year and has been worth 0.3 fWAR this year. He just isn't that good! Sub 800 OPS this year. You replace him with Palka or Collins and not much changes IMO Why do you despise one of our better hitters so much? Again, he is an actual worthy big leaguer. We've had so many hitters on this team this year and past several years who are not big league hitters. Why pick on one of our best players? Do you want we Jose lovers to admit he's not Pujols in his prime? Of course I'll admit it. Jose is not overpaid by any means. He has been one of our better hitters his entire stay in Chicago. Is your beef you'd rather save the money he gets and give it to some other free agent? Yonder Alonso isn't exactly tearing it up. All Jose does is play the game the right way. He's not some mega superstar, fine. You win. He is again ... ONE OF OUR BEST PLAYERS. He put together a fine little career. That means nothing I guess. Again ... are you out to save jerry a few bucks? Uh, I don't think Jerry needs your help when he threw money out the window when he signed Jay and Alonso. Nobody needs the money; Jose takes a good chunk, tries to earn his keep and you hate him. Again WE ADMIT HE"S NOT GOD'S GIFT TO HITTING, NOT DICK ALLEN, NOT RICHIE ZISK ,not the Big Hurt. But he's been one of the top hitters in our lineup for years. And you despise him. It's sick. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thad Bosley Posted June 24, 2019 Share Posted June 24, 2019 2 hours ago, ron883 said: He does just fine when the team he bad. Jose is King of hitting when there is no pressure. The guy was worth 1.2 fWAR last year and has been worth 0.3 fWAR this year. He just isn't that good! Sub 800 OPS this year. You replace him with Palka or Collins and not much changes IMO Bugger off with your nonsense, already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.