A fair and balanced soliloquy about Jose Abreu, by ron

[Bob Sacamano]

11 hours ago, ron883 said:

The Abreu hero worshipping on here is sickening. You may very well be public enemy #1 for posting facts like this around here.

At least this year the negativity is warranted. Unlike the last 3-4 years you've posted negatively about him.

[hogan873]

7 hours ago, greg775 said:

Why do you despise one of our better hitters so much? Again, he is an actual worthy big leaguer. We've had so many hitters on this team this year and past several years who are not big league hitters. Why pick on one of our best players? Do you want we Jose lovers to admit he's not Pujols in his prime? Of course I'll admit it. Jose is not overpaid by any means. He has been one of our better hitters his entire stay in Chicago. Is your beef you'd rather save the money he gets and give it to some other free agent? Yonder Alonso isn't exactly tearing it up. All Jose does is play the game the right way. He's not some mega superstar, fine. You win. He is again ... ONE OF OUR BEST PLAYERS. He put together a fine little career. That means nothing I guess.

Again ... are you out to save jerry a few bucks? Uh, I don't think Jerry needs your help when he threw money out the window when he signed Jay and Alonso. Nobody needs the money; Jose takes a good chunk, tries to earn his keep and you hate him. Again WE ADMIT HE"S NOT GOD'S GIFT TO HITTING, NOT DICK ALLEN, NOT RICHIE ZISK ,not the Big Hurt. But he's been one of the top hitters in our lineup for years. And you despise him. It's sick.

Face it, Greg.  There are Abreu haters on this board that will never change their mind regardless of facts, data, and pleadings presented to them.  It doesn't matter, especially considering we have absolutely no say in whether he stays or goes.  All indications are that the Sox like him, and I would expect him to be around for at least one more year to allow Vaughn to get here.  Personally, I'd be fine with 2-3 more years.  He still delivers offensively and would be a great mentor for Vaughn; he's already shown to be a great mentor and leader.

He's on pace to hit 30+ HRs and drive in over 100 runs.  His BA is lower than it has been historically, but he's been streaky this year.  I still expect him to hit .260+.  I get checking advanced stats, but living by advanced stats alone and ignoring traditional ones is no way to value a player.

[Greg Hibbard]

Imagine for a moment being such an utterly miserable human being as to only be able to take pleasure from continuously trolling a white sox fan board about 2/17 slumps Jose Abreu is having, only to immediately duck for cover when he gets hot. 

i know, I can’t really imagine it either. It’s despicable and sickening behavior. 

[GermanSoxFan]

Abreu has been making it easy for Ron though in the last 18 months ?‍♂️

People are saying that Abreu “haters“, I don‘t hate him,to say that is ridiculous, are ignoring stats and facts and only bring up RBI and HR. His HR numbers in this juiced ball era aren‘t great either. Solid, but not great. His hitting with RISP is also good, there is no denying that.

But the sample size over the past 18 months is big enough that Jose Abreu at this point in his career is a slightly better than league average hitter, which is pretty bad for a 1B, and is a liability defensively. I wouldn‘t mind bringing him back on a 1yr deal at market value (which would be way less than he is making now) to bridge the gap to Vaughn, but extending him for 3yrs at AAVs I‘ve seen thrown around here is insanity. 

Edited June 24, 2019 by GermanSoxFan

[Bob Sacamano]

4 minutes ago, GermanSoxFan said:

Abreu has been making it easy for Ron though in the last 18 months ?‍♂️

People are saying that Abreu “haters“, I don‘t hate him,to say that is ridiculous, are ignoring stats and facts and only bring up RBI and HR. His HR numbers in this juiced ball era aren‘t great either. Solid, but not great. His hitting with RISP is also good, there is no denying that.

But the sample size over the past 18 months is big enough that Jose Abreu at this point in his career is a slightly above league average hitter, which is pretty bad for a 1B, and is a liability defensively. I wouldn‘t mind him bringing him back on a 1yr deal at market value (which would be way less than he is making now) to bridge the gap to Vaughn, but extending him for 3yrs at AAVs I‘ve seen thrown around here is insanity. 

One year with the understanding he is the DH. Also, get him out of the 3-spot. Want him 4th behind Eloy or 5th (depending on what they do in the off-season or how they structure the lineup when Robert and Madrigal are up)? That would be fine too.

Edited June 24, 2019 by soxfan2014

[Dick Allen]

9 hours ago, ron883 said:

He does just fine when the team he bad. Jose is King of hitting when there is no pressure. The guy was worth 1.2 fWAR last year and has been worth 0.3 fWAR this year. He just isn't that good! Sub 800 OPS this year. You replace him with Palka or Collins and not much changes IMO

You said facts. So name the 2 pitchers Jose Abreu has homered off of most often in his career.

 

Justin Verlander

Corey Kluber

 

So your first sentence is garbage.

[ron883]

22 minutes ago, GermanSoxFan said:

Abreu has been making it easy for Ron though in the last 18 months ?‍♂️

People are saying that Abreu “haters“, I don‘t hate him,to say that is ridiculous, are ignoring stats and facts and only bring up RBI and HR. His HR numbers in this juiced ball era aren‘t great either. Solid, but not great. His hitting with RISP is also good, there is no denying that.

But the sample size over the past 18 months is big enough that Jose Abreu at this point in his career is a slightly better than league average hitter, which is pretty bad for a 1B, and is a liability defensively. I wouldn‘t mind bringing him back on a 1yr deal at market value (which would be way less than he is making now) to bridge the gap to Vaughn, but extending him for 3yrs at AAVs I‘ve seen thrown around here is insanity. 

Thank you. The guy needs to stop playing first. 1 year/8m with the understanding that he is relegated to DH

[greg775]

5 hours ago, GermanSoxFan said:

Abreu has been making it easy for Ron though in the last 18 months ?‍♂️

People are saying that Abreu “haters“, I don‘t hate him,to say that is ridiculous, are ignoring stats and facts and only bring up RBI and HR. His HR numbers in this juiced ball era aren‘t great either. Solid, but not great. His hitting with RISP is also good, there is no denying that.

But the sample size over the past 18 months is big enough that Jose Abreu at this point in his career is a slightly better than league average hitter, which is pretty bad for a 1B, and is a liability defensively. I wouldn‘t mind bringing him back on a 1yr deal at market value (which would be way less than he is making now) to bridge the gap to Vaughn, but extending him for 3yrs at AAVs I‘ve seen thrown around here is insanity. 

Again why is it insanity? Not saying you but there are so many posters on here the last 10 years trying to save Jerry a few pennies here and there. My long post just got ignored. He's been one of our best hitters year after year. I don't know why he has to be discussed over and over as somebody to get rid of. 

[poppysox]

17 hours ago, greg775 said:

Again why is it insanity? Not saying you but there are so many posters on here the last 10 years trying to save Jerry a few pennies here and there. My long post just got ignored. He's been one of our best hitters year after year. I don't know why he has to be discussed over and over as somebody to get rid of. 

I would like to see Ricky experiment with Abreu lower in the batting order.  He swings at way to many out of zone pitches based on his desire to be the rbi guy.  When he is swinging under control he is still a dangerous hitter.

[Lip Man 1]

Jose blamed himself for the loss last night, said he wasn't in the proper position to guard the line in the 9th inning.

[greg775]

5 hours ago, poppysox said:

I would like to see Ricky experiment with Abreu lower in the batting order.  He swings at way to many out of zone pitches based on his desire to be the rbi guy.  When he is swinging under control he is still a dangerous hitter.

As much hate as there is on Abreu, he arguably has been as productive as Machado this season at 1/gazilion the cost. Manny in 288 at bats has 16 homers and 47 RBIs. Abreu in 302 at bats has 55 RBI and 18 homers. Now comes the bad news in OBP, Jose is .298 with an OPS of .798 and slugging percentage of .500 and heaven forbid a war of 0.6. His BA is .258. He has 17 walks on a team that often flails away simply because the team blows and it has to be difficult to do the little things when we've been tanking as a team for some time now.

Meanwhile Manny has 32 bases on balls to Jose's 17. Thus Manny is at .278 BA with OBP of .354, slugging of .493 and OPS of .847. But stop the presses Manny's war is 2.1 by gosh to Jose's 0.6. The majority of baseball announcers would look at the simple BA, HR, RBI categories and conclude Jose has been just as productive as Manny this season. The advanced statters (watch baseball games, they still flash BA, HR AND RBI ON THE SCREEN and announcers talk about these figures!) I guess would say Manny is having a WAY better season than Jose.

My point is ... to the average fan it seems Jose is as good or better than Manny in production this season. Are those 20 walks THAT IMPORTANT? Jose faring about as well as moneybags Manny? How can that be??

Edited June 25, 2019 by greg775

[Balta1701]

4 minutes ago, greg775 said:

My point is ... to the average fan it seems Jose is as good or better than Manny in production this season. Are those 20 walks THAT IMPORTANT? Jose faring about as well as moneybags Manny? How can that be??

Defense and baserunning and the ability to play positions other than 1b are things that exist also. 

[greg775]

13 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Defense and baserunning and the ability to play positions other than 1b are things that exist also. 

Manny has two stolen bases so he has no interest in that department anymore. Defense? Yeah, I'm not hearing Manny is any Brooks Robinson but obviously he's better than Jose. But for the $$$s? I'd think the Sox who don't like to pay, are getting their $$$s worth and then some with Jose's production.

[Balta1701]

16 minutes ago, greg775 said:

Manny has two stolen bases so he has no interest in that department anymore. Defense? Yeah, I'm not hearing Manny is any Brooks Robinson but obviously he's better than Jose. But for the $$$s? I'd think the Sox who don't like to pay, are getting their $$$s worth and then some with Jose's production.

Quote

So how good is Manny Machado at third base?

I decided to ask someone who owns 16 Gold Gloves at the position.

“He’s as good as anybody playing over there,” said Hall of Famer Brooks Robinson.

https://www.masnsports.com/school-of-roch/2013/07/brooks-robinson-on-manny-machado-hes-as-good-as-anybody-playing-over-there.html

[hogan873]

55 minutes ago, greg775 said:

As much hate as there is on Abreu, he arguably has been as productive as Machado this season at 1/gazilion the cost. Manny in 288 at bats has 16 homers and 47 RBIs. Abreu in 302 at bats has 55 RBI and 18 homers. Now comes the bad news in OBP, Jose is .298 with an OPS of .798 and slugging percentage of .500 and heaven forbid a war of 0.6. His BA is .258. He has 17 walks on a team that often flails away simply because the team blows and it has to be difficult to do the little things when we've been tanking as a team for some time now.

Meanwhile Manny has 32 bases on balls to Jose's 17. Thus Manny is at .278 BA with OBP of .354, slugging of .493 and OPS of .847. But stop the presses Manny's war is 2.1 by gosh to Jose's 0.6. The majority of baseball announcers would look at the simple BA, HR, RBI categories and conclude Jose has been just as productive as Manny this season. The advanced statters (watch baseball games, they still flash BA, HR AND RBI ON THE SCREEN and announcers talk about these figures!) I guess would say Manny is having a WAY better season than Jose.

My point is ... to the average fan it seems Jose is as good or better than Manny in production this season. Are those 20 walks THAT IMPORTANT? Jose faring about as well as moneybags Manny? How can that be??

I've agreed with you about Abreu being better than he's given credit for.  But, dude, you cannot compare Abreu to Machado and say Jose is as good or better.  Ignore the money for a second and look at the total package.  Abreu plays a mediocre first base, which is not a "premium" position.  Machado plays a very good (some would argue elite) third base, which is a much more premium and difficult position to play (read: valuable).  The offense production of the two is similar at first glance, but Machado is still the better offensive player according to the not-so advanced stats of OPS and slugging.  Start looking at advanced stats, and the difference is more evident.

Now, let's go ahead and talk money.  Sure, Machado is getting paid a lot of money.  Many could, and probably do, argue that he's overpaid.  Maybe he is, maybe not.  Keep in mind, though, that he's getting paid on a long term contract.  He's 26, and will be in his prime for several years.  Abreu is past his prime, even though I believe he'll continue to be a productive part of an offense for a couple more years.

So, I would say that, regardless of basic stats and the "eye test", Machado is a much more valuable player.  Worth the money?  To the Padres, I'm sure he is.  And many of us would be happy to have the Sox be paying him $30M for what he's doing.  Is Abreu worth the money?  Sure, this year.  I'd still sign him for another year or two for $12M per, but as a bridge to Vaughn and primarily as a DH.

[greg775]

5 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

https://www.masnsports.com/school-of-roch/2013/07/brooks-robinson-on-manny-machado-hes-as-good-as-anybody-playing-over-there.html

Good job nailing me on that. I could be a dick and say, "What else is Brooks supposed to say?" But I won't. What about my general point that through 80 games Jose is basically outperforming Manny this season, especially when you consider cost efficiency which the White Sox obviously care greatly about?

Edited June 26, 2019 by greg775

[greg775]

4 hours ago, hogan873 said:

I've agreed with you about Abreu being better than he's given credit for.  But, dude, you cannot compare Abreu to Machado and say Jose is as good or better..

I'm talking about this season, arguably Jose has been better than Manny (at least equal) for 1/zillionth the cost. So some of you think I'm ready for the insane asylum? Call a talk show and ask the host about this and you'll see them agree with my point (unless they are extreme advanced statnik type of hosts).

I read your entire thread. Not so sure anybody read mine. I'm just talking about this season, which is fair, because whenever somebody was ready to deem Avi trash they always just looked at current performance not ever looking at the season he bashed .320 or whatever it was.

Now Tatis? Arguably what he's doing is scary good at this time. I'll give you that.

[poppysox]

Abreu chasing out of the zone  pitches is getting chronic.  I would drop him in the order to 5th or 6th.

[Chisox378]

Now is the time to trade him. His K to walk is aweful. I love him, he will always be a White Sox icon, but he no longer has the bat we need. Let Collins DH, I can gaurentee he will have better results.

[greg775]

14 minutes ago, Chisox378 said:

Now is the time to trade him. His K to walk is aweful. I love him, he will always be a White Sox icon, but he no longer has the bat we need. Let Collins DH, I can gaurentee he will have better results.

I give up and am sick of defending him. Players go through slumps especially ones on bad teams, but with no love for Jose I hope we trade him soon. I'm weary of defending him. I hope you all get 2-3 good prospects for him and not lousy prospects.

[poppysox]

21 minutes ago, greg775 said:

I give up and am sick of defending him. Players go through slumps especially ones on bad teams, but with no love for Jose I hope we trade him soon. I'm weary of defending him. I hope you all get 2-3 good prospects for him and not lousy prospects.

Ricky should drop him in the order.  I wish our manager would have a little creativity and change a lineup when the current one is stagnant.

[harkness99]

The at bat with the runner on 3rd what was virgin little leaguers are made of.

[poppysox]

11 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Jose blamed himself for the loss last night, said he wasn't in the proper position to guard the line in the 9th inning.

He should have mentioned...also not hitting for crap.

[ron883]

1 hour ago, greg775 said:

I give up and am sick of defending him. Players go through slumps especially ones on bad teams, but with no love for Jose I hope we trade him soon. I'm weary of defending him. I hope you all get 2-3 good prospects for him and not lousy prospects.

He isn't worth 2-3 good prospects. He probably isn't worth 1 good prospect

[greg775]

18 minutes ago, ron883 said:

He isn't worth 2-3 good prospects. He probably isn't worth 1 good prospect

Then dump him for whatever you can get for him. Maybe 3 prospects with the ceiling of a Jon Jay in his prime or a Todd Ritchie in his prime? He's old and no good and too expensive to sign. I am giving in. Takes too much energy to try to talk some sense into you folks. I'm OK with trading him now.