Luis Robert and Nick Madrigal

[SoxBlanco]

1 hour ago, caulfield12 said:

Why is Alex Gordon the solution at his age based on one season out of his last four where he actually came close to earning his salary...?

Relying on him or Collins or whatever seems pretty desperate.

 

I want to sign Gordon to a one year deal. I would hardly call that a “solution”. 

[Ducksnort]

2 hours ago, ptatc said:

the fact that they brought him up and didnt play him, makes me think that they are really grooming him. from what I heard they really had him work with McCann on learning preparation and hitters. There is much more to being a catcher than hitting.

I could be way off base but I think they are set on using a McCann/Collins tandem.

You seem to be the voice of reason in every conversation you are involved in on this board.

Thank you.

[kitekrazy]

On 8/11/2019 at 7:43 AM, ptatc said:

I'm not sure why people keep discussing signing Grandal. The catching tandem next year will be McCann and Collins. The Sox will give Collins every chance to stick at catcher .

  Yep.  Since we discussed it's almost a sure bet Reinsdorf will say no.

[kitekrazy]

On 8/11/2019 at 3:16 PM, ptatc said:

the fact that they brought him up and didnt play him, makes me think that they are really grooming him. from what I heard they really had him work with McCann on learning preparation and hitters. There is much more to being a catcher than hitting.

I could be way off base but I think they are set on using a McCann/Collins tandem.

 Agree.  It's the toughest position to develop and no longer a glamorous position in baseball.   I think most organizations prefer a guy to do well behind the plate than at the plate.  

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

1) Robert - Elite speed and XBH abilities

2) Madrigal - Elite contact skills to move Robert over when he leads off with either a 2B or a single/walk + SB. 

Basically the Pods/Iguchi tandem, if Pods could hit 30+ bombs a year and Iguchi had well above average speed.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

The interesting thing about people putting Madrigal at lead off is that the guy swings at everything in the strike zone. He's not going to draw out long ABs. Not typically what you want from your lead off hitter. And Madrigal batting 2nd after Robert may actually force Madrigal to take a couple of pitches to let Robert try to steal a bag. And even if Madrigal goes down 0-2 in the count giving Robert a chance to steal, he's the guy who is going to strike out less than anyone else in baseball, so you can bet on him to at least advance Robert over to 3B if he does give him that chance to steal 2B.

[SoxBlanco]

2 hours ago, ChiliIrishHammock24 said:

1) Robert - Elite speed and XBH abilities

2) Madrigal - Elite contact skills to move Robert over when he leads off with either a 2B or a single/walk + SB. 

Basically the Pods/Iguchi tandem, if Pods could hit 30+ bombs a year and Iguchi had well above average speed.

I agree with this. The only reason I had Madrigal 1 and Robert 2 in my mock lineup is because that’s what they started doing at AAA. But I prefer Madrigal in the 2 spot. 

[ptatc]

4 hours ago, ChiliIrishHammock24 said:

The interesting thing about people putting Madrigal at lead off is that the guy swings at everything in the strike zone. He's not going to draw out long ABs. Not typically what you want from your lead off hitter. And Madrigal batting 2nd after Robert may actually force Madrigal to take a couple of pitches to let Robert try to steal a bag. And even if Madrigal goes down 0-2 in the count giving Robert a chance to steal, he's the guy who is going to strike out less than anyone else in baseball, so you can bet on him to at least advance Robert over to 3B if he does give him that chance to steal 2B.

This really isn't true. He has seen 3.28 pitches per at plate appearance at AAA compared to Robert at 3.41. That isn't significant. He doesnt so much swing at everything, its more like he hits everything at which he swings.

Edited August 13, 2019 by ptatc

[BamaDoc]

I think Madrigal's spot in the batting lineup is totally dependent on if he hits enough.  Let me explain, he is not a guy who is dead  pull in fact he hits to right a good bit.  He doesn't strike out and he has decent speed.  This profile screams two hole hitter to me.  If the leadoff man gets on, he should be ok taking a couple pitches if you want the leadoff man to steal.  Post stolen base or if leadoff has doubled, his natural profile has him hitting behind the runner and at least getting him to third with one out.  His bat to ball skills also make hitting and running a fine option.  He just has to hit enough that if the leadoff man is out, he is not a low average hitter who you just pound with fastballs ala a bunch of hitters we have run thru the last several years.  If he doesn't hit enough, he is your nine hitter with decent speed, the "second leadoff man".  Obviously, there is a point where if anyone doesn't hit enough they are out of baseball.

[ChiSox59]

On 8/11/2019 at 3:02 PM, ptatc said:

I think they are going with Collins as the catcher with McCann. The left handed bat may be from RF.

This isn't so much that I dont like Grandal as I think the Sox have too much invested in Collins to sign another catcher, from their view.

Collins has started 68 games in AAA this season.   41 at catcher, 16 at 1B and 11 at DH.  Clearly they are open to him playing multiple positions - which is also evident based on how much they were working him out (before games) at 1B while with the big league club.  You can only really take advantage of that flexibility with a third catcher on the big league club.

Grandal should, without a doubt, be the Sox #1 positional player target in FA. He is legitimately a perfect fit.  

Madrigal 2B, Moncada 3B, Robert CF, Eloy, LF, FA/TRADE LH RF, Abreu 1B, Grandal C/DH, Anderson SS, Collins DH/1B/C

McCann catches against 3-4 days a week to get Collins out of the lineup against LHP and Grandal slides to DH.  Can also give Abreu more rest this way.  

 

Edited August 13, 2019 by ChiSox59

[ChiSox59]

On 8/11/2019 at 5:23 PM, caulfield12 said:

Why is Alex Gordon the solution at his age based on one season out of his last four where he actually came close to earning his salary...?

Relying on him or Collins or whatever seems pretty desperate.

 

I don't know that Alex Gordon is truly a solution, but I don't mind him as a short term stop gap to give Adolfo/Walker/Rutherford another year to see if they can take a big step forward and become the RF in 2021.  

All the top tier RF options on the FA market hit the wrong way and are poor defenders.  They're also going to be expensive and require longer term deals.  Gordon could likely be had for a 1 year deal around $8-$10M.  He is a plus defender, a decent LH bat, knows the division super well and is a good clubhouse guy.  We could certainly do worse if nothing presents itself on the trade market in RF.  

[ptatc]

45 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Collins has started 68 games in AAA this season.   41 at catcher, 16 at 1B and 11 at DH.  Clearly they are open to him playing multiple positions - which is also evident based on how much they were working him out (before games) at 1B while with the big league club.  You can only really take advantage of that flexibility with a third catcher on the big league club.

Grandal should, without a doubt, be the Sox #1 positional player target in FA. He is legitimately a perfect fit.  

Madrigal 2B, Moncada 3B, Robert CF, Eloy, LF, FA/TRADE LH RF, Abreu 1B, Grandal C/DH, Anderson SS, Collins DH/1B/C

McCann catches against 3-4 days a week to get Collins out of the lineup against LHP and Grandal slides to DH.  Can also give Abreu more rest this way.  

 

I'm not disagreeing with the logic. I just don't see them having all 3 of those on the roster, even with the expanded roster.

[ChiSox59]

5 minutes ago, ptatc said:

I'm not disagreeing with the logic. I just don't see them having all 3 of those on the roster, even with the expanded roster.

Then Collins is a straight back up catcher that sucks at catching? That doesn’t really fit with your “Sox are committed to Collins” take either. He would be far better utilized as a guy they can plug in at DH and 1B as well. More difficult to do that regularly with 2 catchers. 

[ptatc]

56 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Then Collins is a straight back up catcher that sucks at catching? That doesn’t really fit with your “Sox are committed to Collins” take either. He would be far better utilized as a guy they can plug in at DH and 1B as well. More difficult to do that regularly with 2 catchers. 

We'll find out in the offseason. 

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

18 hours ago, ptatc said:

This really isn't true. He has seen 3.28 pitches per at plate appearance at AAA compared to Robert at 3.41. That isn't significant. He doesnt so much swing at everything, its more like he hits everything at which he swings.

The MLB average is 3.92 Pit/PA. I am terrible with Baseball-Reference's website so I can't figure out how to see what Madrigal's Pit/PA was in AA and A+, but considering he's well below the MLB average and would be the lowest on the Sox, how does that make the statement that he swings at everything in the strikezone to be untrue?

Edited August 14, 2019 by ChiliIrishHammock24

[Moan4Yoan]

15 hours ago, ptatc said:

I'm not disagreeing with the logic. I just don't see them having all 3 of those on the roster, even with the expanded roster.

The Sox not going after Grandal with all the money they should have available would either mean that the Sox just aren’t very bright or they will be going cheap in free agency because ChiSox59’s plan makes perfect sense and would be a feasible way to greatly improve the lineup.

Edited August 14, 2019 by Moan4Yoan

[ptatc]

7 hours ago, Moan4Yoan said:

The Sox not going after Grandal with all the money they should have available would either mean that the Sox just aren’t very bright or they will be going cheap in free agency because ChiSox59’s plan makes perfect sense and would be a feasible way to greatly improve the lineup.

You'll have something more to complain about next year then.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Just now, ptatc said:

You'll have something more to complain about next year then.

He always does but then again so do I . The Sox give us a lot to be upset about but when everything bothers you to the point that you can't be objective then it becomes a problem.

For example Moan can't understand why an innings eater like Nova did exactly what the Sox wanted him to do in a rebuild year and why that was needed in a rebuild year. He considered it a waste of $9M because he was too inconsistent to be traded at the deadline.

1st of all you need starters. It's been a disaster with him imagine how bad it would be without him staying healthy and having the most innings pitched on the Sox . A guy like him is the glue that kept the whole pitching staff from becoming a complete nightmare. We have seen guys like Covey, Detweiler and Despaigne with him. Who else do we see without him ? His innings and health save the pen from being a disaster also . Without him maybe there are even more injuries because of having to over pitch guys. I know the guy has knowledge but his agenda/need to complain overrules his rational mind or he just isn't as knowledgeable as I think. Guys who go out there every 5th day consistently but are just mediocre might not be worth much to contenders but on a staff like the Sox he was worth every penny.

[ptatc]

31 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

He always does but then again so do I . The Sox give us a lot to be upset about but when everything bothers you to the point that you can't be objective then it becomes a problem.

For example Moan can't understand why an innings eater like Nova did exactly what the Sox wanted him to do in a rebuild year and why that was needed in a rebuild year. He considered it a waste of $9M because he was too inconsistent to be traded at the deadline.

1st of all you need starters. It's been a disaster with him imagine how bad it would be without him staying healthy and having the most innings pitched on the Sox . A guy like him is the glue that kept the whole pitching staff from becoming a complete nightmare. We have seen guys like Covey, Detweiler and Despaigne with him. Who else do we see without him ? His innings and health save the pen from being a disaster also . Without him maybe there are even more injuries because of having to over pitch guys. I know the guy has knowledge but his agenda/need to complain overrules his rational mind or he just isn't as knowledgeable as I think. Guys who go out there every 5th day consistently but are just mediocre might not be worth much to contenders but on a staff like the Sox he was worth every penny.

No doubt.

[SCCWS]

10 hours ago, Moan4Yoan said:

The Sox not going after Grandal with all the money they should have available would either mean that the Sox just aren’t very bright or they will be going cheap in free agency because ChiSox59’s plan makes perfect sense and would be a feasible way to greatly improve the lineup.

Moan: Two questions. What kind of deal would you see him getting?   What happens if McCann has a good( .280+) 2nd half?

Grandal is getting 18.2 MIL this year.  Now that was a 1 yr Brewer all in move.  He is 30 and he turned down 4 YR $60 last season when he took the $18.2 to become a FA. His BA drops off pretty consistently 2nd half each year but homers don't.  He has struggled in numerous postseason appearances. 

He now averages 120 starts so he is is pretty healthy.  Very good defensive catcher although this year McCann may be slightly better stat wise.  He would bat mostly  LH which is a lineup need.   I would guess he takes best offer but that might be minimum 4 YR $60 Mil again.  

 

[poppysox]

33 minutes ago, SCCWS said:

Moan: Two questions. What kind of deal would you see him getting?   What happens if McCann has a good( .280+) 2nd half?

Grandal is getting 18.2 MIL this year.  Now that was a 1 yr Brewer all in move.  He is 30 and he turned down 4 YR $60 last season when he took the $18.2 to become a FA. His BA drops off pretty consistently 2nd half each year but homers don't.  He has struggled in numerous postseason appearances. 

He now averages 120 starts so he is is pretty healthy.  Very good defensive catcher although this year McCann may be slightly better stat wise.  He would bat mostly  LH which is a lineup need.   I would guess he takes best offer but that might be minimum 4 YR $60 Mil again.  

 

I would give him 4 year 60 million.  He fits our need nicely.

[SCCWS]

2 hours ago, poppysox said:

I would give him 4 year 60 million.  He fits our need nicely.

If he turned that down last year, that may have to be the opening bid. Maybe more like 5 and 80

[Moan4Yoan]

3 hours ago, SCCWS said:

Moan: Two questions. What kind of deal would you see him getting?   What happens if McCann has a good( .280+) 2nd half?

Grandal is getting 18.2 MIL this year.  Now that was a 1 yr Brewer all in move.  He is 30 and he turned down 4 YR $60 last season when he took the $18.2 to become a FA. His BA drops off pretty consistently 2nd half each year but homers don't.  He has struggled in numerous postseason appearances. 

He now averages 120 starts so he is is pretty healthy.  Very good defensive catcher although this year McCann may be slightly better stat wise.  He would bat mostly  LH which is a lineup need.   I would guess he takes best offer but that might be minimum 4 YR $60 Mil again.  

 

I would give Grandal 4-years, $60 million in a second.  $60 million guaranteed ($15 million per year) is easily manageable for the Sox and would have a big impact on the lineup.  Sure, I would love to see the Sox throw a big contract at Cole but he could get 6-years and $200 million.  For much less money and risk, a guy like Grandal could still make a big impact.

Also, I don’t care how McCann finishes the season.  He’s too big of a risk as a one year wonder even if he finishes strong.  Besides, having two good catchers is a great problem to have.  Add Collins to the roster and you could play some interesting lineups to get 2 of these 3 bats in the lineup at C, DH, and 1B while keeping a viable catcher on the bench getting them all a good amount of at bats as well as keeping them all fresh for an entire season.

Edited August 14, 2019 by Moan4Yoan

[SCCWS]

1 hour ago, Moan4Yoan said:

I would give Grandal 4-years, $60 million in a second.  $60 million guaranteed ($15 million per year) is easily manageable for the Sox and would have a big impact on the lineup.  Sure, I would love to see the Sox throw a big contract at Cole but he could get 6-years and $200 million.  For much less money and risk, a guy like Grandal could still make a big impact.

Also, I don’t care how McCann finishes the season.  He’s too big of a risk as a one year wonder even if he finishes strong.  Besides, having two good catchers is a great problem to have.  Add Collins to the roster and you could play some interesting lineups to get 2 of these 3 bats in the lineup at C, DH, and 1B while keeping a viable catcher on the bench getting them all a good amount of at bats as well as keeping them all fresh for an entire season.

I understand your thinking on McCann and he would be an excellent backup with just his defense. Also cut Grandal 's catching duties and utilize his bat to prevent his drop off late in year.   But if Grandal already turned down 4-60, as I said earlier I would guess you have to go 5-80 to get him.   

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

9 minutes ago, SCCWS said:

I understand your thinking on McCann and he would be an excellent backup with just his defense. Also cut Grandal 's catching duties and utilize his bat to prevent his drop off late in year.   But if Grandal already turned down 4-60, as I said earlier I would guess you have to go 5-80 to get him.   

No one is signing a 31 year old catcher for 5 years 80 million.

Theres a lot of conflicting catcher data that says grandal is a bad defender too.

Edited August 14, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run