Sox and As game 3 rubber match

[bubba phillips]

2 hours ago, fathom said:

Yeah I said this the other day but they can’t  just rely on Robert/Madrigal/Yoan fixing this.  This is truly awful watching so many of these guys suck.  Also, I really hope they aren’t counting on McCann being a starter next year.

This will not be fixed next year alone.  How can we compete with Cleveland and Minnesota next year?  Not only our hitting, but our overall pitching sucks.  Our run differential of -117 shows just how far we have to go to catch the teams above us in the division. The run differential between us and Minnesota is currently at 234.  It's 203 vs. Cleveland.

[kitekrazy]

26 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

The other thing that makes me curious, why does Skole get a better shot, all things considered than Collins?

I assume it's because Collins is a catcher.

[Dick Allen]

3 minutes ago, kitekrazy said:

I assume it's because Collins is a catcher.

But he is also playing some 1B and could DH.

[Dick Allen]

13 minutes ago, bubba phillips said:

This will not be fixed next year alone.  How can we compete with Cleveland and Minnesota next year?  Not only our hitting, but our overall pitching sucks.  Our run differential of -117 shows just how far we have to go to catch the teams above us in the division. The run differential between us and Minnesota is currently at 234.  It's 203 vs. Cleveland.

Home runs is what wins games these days and the White Sox have been outhomered at home by more than 30. Jon Jay types don’t move the needle, he is the MLB version of a 7 foot post player in the NBA and a first round running back in the NFL. The game has changed, and passed bythese types . Hahn needs to pick up power,and hope the guys he has hit more homers. I think Moncada and Eloy should hit more. You figure so will TA. Robert and Vaughn  obviously have some. Collins. Guys like Rutherford and Basabe are trade currency. They are baseball dinosaurs. They may develop into decent players but not the kind you win with in your line up every day.

Edited August 11, 2019 by Dick Allen

[pcq]

1 hour ago, bubba phillips said:

True.  But his ERA is in the 3's, just like it is for Fiers.  Their ERA's were not 0.00 coming in to this series.  Obviously somebody scores runs against them.

Billy signs Fiers and Rick signs Santana. They have better analytics. We trade for Yonder and the Cub trade for Castellanos. We don't seem to hit the target very often. 

[caulfield12]

7 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Home runs is what wins games these days and the White Sox have been outhomered at home by more than 30. Jon Jay types don’t move the needle, he is the MLB version of a 7 foot post player in the NBA and a first round running back in the NFL. The game has changed, and passed bythese types . Hahn needs to pick up power,and hope the guys he has hit more homers. I think Moncada and Eloy should hit more. You figure so will TA. Robert and Vaughn  obviously have some. Collins. Guys like Rutherford and Basabe are trade currency. They are baseball dinosaurs. They may develop into decent players but not the kind you win with in your line up every day.

Even then, if you just put up big power numbers and have nothing else to your game (high OBP), like Palka’s 2018 season...you’re also not of much use, either.

In many ways, Madrigal is the exact opposite of this entire trend, which is why it’s not surprising some are already hoping to trade him and move Moncada back to second and sign yet another (injury-plagued) free agent in his early 30’s to the biggest contract in team history to play 3B.

Edited August 11, 2019 by caulfield12

[pcq]

6 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Home runs is what wins games these days and the White Sox have been outhomered at home by more than 30. Jon Jay types don’t move the needle, he is the MLB version of a 7 foot post player in the NBA and a first round running back in the NFL. The game has changed, and passed bythese types . Hahn needs to pick up power,and hope the guys he has hit more homers. I think Moncada and Eloy should hit more. You figure so will TA. Robert and Vaughn  obviously have some. Collins. Guys like Rutherford and Basabe are trade currency. They are baseball dinosaurs. They may develop into decent players but not the kind you win with in your line up every day.

When the visitors take advantage of your home field advantage. No bueno. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

23 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Even then, if you just put up big power numbers and have nothing else to your game (high OBP), like Palka’s 2018 season...you’re also not of much use, either.

In many ways, Madrigal is the exact opposite of this entire trend, which is why it’s not surprising some are already hoping to trade him and move Moncada back to second and sign yet another (injury-plagued) free agent in his early 30’s to the biggest contract in team history to play 3B.

If you are talking about Rendon being injury plagued I'd like to know how he has put up 18.3 and counting bWAR the last 4 years while he should finish the year averaging 600 AB's for those years. Tell me he is not the best position player available and why you wouldn't want him. He also will not turn 30 until June next year. Try to get something right.

Edited August 11, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 hours ago, GermanSoxFan said:

.620, but he at least provides defensive value.

Also it's not like the 2nd half has been all that many games so far. Pointing to his numbers so far in the 2nd half is a lot more ridiculous than saying how good he was in the WHOLE 1st half.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 hours ago, fathom said:

Sign Rendon, move Yoan back to 2nd and trade Madrigal for pitching.....problem solved

I've been saying that for ages except for the trade Madrigal part. You have money  spend it. Keep prospects let them get better or worse . Still need depth .

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

Not a bad idea to be honest. I'm not sure that Moncada wouldn't take a step back with the bat if he went back to 2B though. 

Why would anyone think playing 3rd is tied to his hitting ? It's his new approach that changed his hitting not because he switched positions. The best moves you can make is 1 move that plugs 2 holes Then we have really good players at 3rd and 2nd.

[kitekrazy]

30 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Guys like Shark and Vazquez show that WAR has its flaws. You wouldn’t want either pitching a game with the season on the line, yet they out WAR most you would.

He spent almost all of his career in the NL and those stats don't always translate to the AL when that extra batter is one of the teams better hitters unless you are the White Sox. Either that or the Sox have bad luck with NL talent. I doubt getting Harper would have changed that trend.

 I think that trade was worse than the Shields trade.

[kitekrazy]

59 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

But he is also playing some 1B and could DH.

I guess he is not needed there either.  

[kitekrazy]

55 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Home runs is what wins games these days and the White Sox have been outhomered at home by more than 30. Jon Jay types don’t move the needle, he is the MLB version of a 7 foot post player in the NBA and a first round running back in the NFL. The game has changed, and passed bythese types . Hahn needs to pick up power,and hope the guys he has hit more homers. I think Moncada and Eloy should hit more. You figure so will TA. Robert and Vaughn  obviously have some. Collins. Guys like Rutherford and Basabe are trade currency. They are baseball dinosaurs. They may develop into decent players but not the kind you win with in your line up every day.

Some would add Madrigal to those dinosaurs. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

3 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

But we've learned enough about baseball that the guy who wins the batting title has probably had a lot of batted ball luck. It means nothing. I don't think even players take it seriously anymore. So a guy had a good season and got lucky in the process. Big deal. 

Jack Jack Jack this idea that having a high batting average is mostly luck has got to end. Is it luck they make enough contact to find holes or hit balls down the line or over peoples heads or hard enough to get through holes. I agree that in the age of the shift its much harder to win multiple batting titles but guys like Gwynn, Carew, Mauer, Ichiro all who won multiple titles are just truly gifted with the bat. The more hits a team gets the better off they are so while a nice OBP is great a high OBP with a high batting average is even better. When you are young you have better skills, as you age more experience, to utilize those skills. But sooner or later skills erode so the experience means less. If we continue to say skills,age and strength have given way to luck then it's what you think you have learned about baseball that I have to question.

[kitekrazy]

4 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Jack Jack Jack this idea that having a high batting average is mostly luck has got to end. Is it luck they make enough contact to find holes or hit balls down the line or over peoples heads or hard enough to get through holes. I agree that in the age of the shift its much harder to win multiple batting titles but guys like Gwynn, Carew, Mauer, Ichiro all who won multiple titles are just truly gifted with the bat. The more hits a team gets the better off they are so while a nice OBP is great a high OBP with a high batting average is even better. When you are young you have better skills, as you age more experience, to utilize those skills. But sooner or later skills erode so the experience means less. If we continue to say skills,age and strength have given way to luck then it's what you think you have learned about baseball that I have to question.

Let's not forget Miggy who won the triple crown in 2012. I guess he had a lot of luck.

 

[caulfield12]

55 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

If you are talking about Rendon being injury plagued I'd like to know how he has put up 18.3 and counting bWAR the last 4 years while he should finish the year averaging 600 AB's for those years. Tell me he is not the best position player available and why you wouldn't want him. He also will not turn 30 until June next year. Try to get something right.

I guess it was mostly 2015 that he was hurt, but he missed 41 games in 2017-18 as well.

We need guys who can consistently stay on the field 150-155 games per year...in fact, it’s one of the biggest raps on Moncada right now.

This idea of signing Rendon for let’s say $180-240 million also is predicated on the concept of getting a top of the rotation caliber pitcher for Madrigal.   Good luck with that.

You just pointed out every reason the White Sox won’t sign him, he’s too good and now they’re committed to Madrigal, Anderson and Moncada.  They’re much likelier to fill holes at other spots, in fact, Moncada at 3B and Giolito are the only huge bright spots on the roster statistically.

i thought he was already 30...at any rate, he will be 30 next year.  

Hahn is all doublespeak now about “augmenting” blah blah blah, there’s just no way in hell they will go after Rendon. Why?  They could have had Machado at age 26 and passed...makes no sense in terms of everything we’ve heard this year.

 

"You look ahead to the future - if you just go strictly internal, which won't be the case - but if you look internally at Giolito, Lopez, Cease, Kopech, Rodon, Dunning, Lambert, Jonathan Stiever. You've got five really good ones in there, and you're insulated, as well, against potential injury," Hahn said during the White Sox Talk Podcast on Thursday. "That said, when you have championship aspirations, you are going to have to augment that.

"Whether it's the biggest name on the free-agent market or whether it's solid, mid-rotation guys to help stem the tide of any losing streak or give you a reliable output every fifth day, those have value. We like, once healthy, where this organizational starting-pitching depth is going, but we at the same time know if they all click, augmenting it externally makes sense, as well."

https://sports.yahoo.com/white-sox-developing-lucas-giolito-225015811.html

 

Edited August 12, 2019 by caulfield12

[vilehoopster]

I went to the game today. Parking was a complete mess. Got there 50 minutes early, yet lot after lot was full. Took me 35 minutes just to get parked, once at stadium. 

But the Baines stuff was running late, so I still got to see a lot of that. That made up for the parking mess. 

But going to a game and seeing your team get shut out, by what you know is probably an average pitcher just sucks. It's ZERO fun. When that 2-run Oakland homer went over the fence, you already felt the game was over, done. And many people around me felt the same way. Inning after inning, you kept this flicker of hope, but you really didn't believe it. It was like watching a ship slowly sink. 

As of right now, I have no desire to go to a Sox game this year or next. God dammit. Score some runs. Today just sucked. 

And I agree, get rid of the batting coach or whatever approach is being used organization wide. Did I read from from Merkin on MLB.com that the Sox lead the majors in games where they only score one run or less?

Again, other than Baines thing, today's game was ZERO fun. 

[kitekrazy]

 I'm surprise they won one against OAK.

[caulfield12]

19 times 1 or zero runs.

18 times just 2 runs.

115 games, that means 32% of the time or 1/3 games you will be bored out of your mind...not exactly a great thing in the entertainment industry.

[whitesoxbrad]

1 hour ago, vilehoopster said:

I went to the game today. Parking was a complete mess. Got there 50 minutes early, yet lot after lot was full. Took me 35 minutes just to get parked, once at stadium. 

But the Baines stuff was running late, so I still got to see a lot of that. That made up for the parking mess. 

But going to a game and seeing your team get shut out, by what you know is probably an average pitcher just sucks. It's ZERO fun. When that 2-run Oakland homer went over the fence, you already felt the game was over, done. And many people around me felt the same way. Inning after inning, you kept this flicker of hope, but you really didn't believe it. It was like watching a ship slowly sink. 

As of right now, I have no desire to go to a Sox game this year or next. God dammit. Score some runs. Today just sucked. 

And I agree, get rid of the batting coach or whatever approach is being used organization wide. Did I read from from Merkin on MLB.com that the Sox lead the majors in games where they only score one run or less?

Again, other than Baines thing, today's game was ZERO fun. 

You  sound like you are a great Sox fan, but please give your hard earned money to a human or pet charity not to this garbage organization, they do not deserve one penny of it.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

3 hours ago, pcq said:

Only the Sox pick up scrubs like Reed and Skole and call them MLB cleanup hitters lollz. Rick was that you or Kenny?

Hahn.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

I guess it was mostly 2015 that he was hurt, but he missed 41 games in 2017-18 as well.

We need guys who can consistently stay on the field 150-155 games per year...in fact, it’s one of the biggest raps on Moncada right now.

This idea of signing Rendon for let’s say $180-240 million also is predicated on the concept of getting a top of the rotation caliber pitcher for Madrigal.   Good luck with that.

You just pointed out every reason the White Sox won’t sign him, he’s too good and now they’re committed to Madrigal, Anderson and Moncada.  They’re much likelier to fill holes at other spots, in fact, Moncada at 3B and Giolito are the only huge bright spots on the roster statistically.

i thought he was already 30...at any rate, he will be 30 next year.  

Hahn is all doublespeak now about “augmenting” blah blah blah, there’s just no way in hell they will go after Rendon. Why?  They could have had Machado at age 26 and passed...makes no sense in terms of everything we’ve heard this year.

 

"You look ahead to the future - if you just go strictly internal, which won't be the case - but if you look internally at Giolito, Lopez, Cease, Kopech, Rodon, Dunning, Lambert, Jonathan Stiever. You've got five really good ones in there, and you're insulated, as well, against potential injury," Hahn said during the White Sox Talk Podcast on Thursday. "That said, when you have championship aspirations, you are going to have to augment that.

"Whether it's the biggest name on the free-agent market or whether it's solid, mid-rotation guys to help stem the tide of any losing streak or give you a reliable output every fifth day, those have value. We like, once healthy, where this organizational starting-pitching depth is going, but we at the same time know if they all click, augmenting it externally makes sense, as well."

https://sports.yahoo.com/white-sox-developing-lucas-giolito-225015811.html

 

Look I don't like the way the FO office does things either but to start bashing the players isn't the answer. Injuries happen. The answer to that is depth like the Yankees have shown this year.That's why I don't advocate trading prospects just yet. Everyone finds fault with even the best players. All that does is create paralysis by analysis. No one is ever good enough. They are either too old , too injured, lucky , don't walk enough and on and on. You try to build a team that can win a championship. The rest of the stuff about sustained success is just a pipe dream

The Sox haven't done anything for us to think they can have sustained success. They won't put the money into doing what is necessary to evaluate talent properly. How has drafting gone since the rebuild started? Have they done anything to think any kind of success can be maintained ? Have they discovered or developed any hidden gems ? How is it the Dodgers , Astros and Yankees can get all this depth or find hidden gems when a team like the Sox can't do it during a rebuild when the talent level is so low and they give so many chances. Where is our Max Muncy ? If the Sox had got him can anyone be at all confident he would ve ended up doing as well as he has with the Dodgers ? At this point I can't ,nor can I be at any point, in the future if things remain status quo.

What has the status quo produced so far? Traded away young talent for 2 pitchers Samardzija and Shields . How did that work out ? Talent evaluation is terrible . Got a good closer for a terrible defensive catcher with years of control who was one of the few on an upwards projectory with the bat and also one of the few who had good AB's. If they got Colome to trade him that didn't succeed either. Failed to close the deal on Machado when he was there for the taking. SIgned a few friends and family who became some of the biggest stiffs they ever got. Just a small fraction of those dollars could've been spent on high speed cameras and some salaries for guys with knowledge to analyze the film or hired away people from the good teams. Apparently they can't develop hitters or good fielders. All they can do is try to sign the best free agents because they aren't much good at evaluating the middling ones either. The same guys are still in charge

Edited August 12, 2019 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[poppysox]

4 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Even then, if you just put up big power numbers and have nothing else to your game (high OBP), like Palka’s 2018 season...you’re also not of much use, either.

In many ways, Madrigal is the exact opposite of this entire trend, which is why it’s not surprising some are already hoping to trade him and move Moncada back to second and sign yet another (injury-plagued) free agent in his early 30’s to the biggest contract in team history to play 3B.

It's nice when someone is on when those homers are hit.

[caulfield12]

27 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Look I don't like the way the FO office does things either but to start bashing the players isn't the answer. Injuries happen. The answer to that is depth like the Yankees have shown this year.That's why I don't advocate trading prospects just yet. Everyone finds fault with even the best players. All that does is create paralysis by analysis. No one is ever good enough. They are either too old , too injured, lucky , don't walk enough and on and on. You try to build a team that can win a championship. The rest of the stuff about sustained success is just a pipe dream

The Sox haven't done anything for us to think they can have sustained success. They won't put the money into doing what is necessary to evaluate talent properly. How has drafting gone since the rebuild started? Have they done anything to think any kind of success can be maintained ? Have they discovered or developed any hidden gems ? How is it the Dodgers , Astros and Yankees can get all this depth or find hidden gems when a team like the Sox can't do it during a rebuild when the talent level is so low and they give so many chances. Where is our Max Muncy ? If the Sox had got him can anyone be at all confident he would ve ended up doing as well as he has with the Dodgers ? At this point I can't ,nor can I be at any point, in the future if things remain status quo.

What has the status quo produced so far? Traded away young talent for 2 pitchers Samardzija and Shields . How did that work out ? Talent evaluation is terrible . Got a good closer for a terrible defensive catcher with years of control who was one of the few on an upwards projectory with the bat and also one of the few who had good AB's. If they got Colome to trade him that didn't succeed either. Failed to close the deal on Machado when he was there for the taking. SIgned a few friends and family who became some of the biggest stiffs they ever got. Just a small fraction of those dollars could've been spent on high speed cameras and some salaries for guys with knowledge to analyze the film or hired away people from the good teams. Apparently they can't develop hitters or good fielders. All they can do is try to sign the best free agents because they aren't much good at evaluating the middling ones either. The same guys are still in charge

I hear you.

Was shocked to see Muncy playing second base with pretty decent mobility the other night.  Not only do the Dodgers hit with their draft picks, but guys like Muncy, Chris Taylor, Turner, Kiki Gonzalez, it’s uncanny.  But they can do it with consistency.

It’s almost like Madrigal and Robert played so well this year that it’s making Hahn falsely believe he can get away with his “incremental augmentation” plan of Type B/C free agents because we have a bigger base or foundation of young talent than just four players (Eaton, Sale, Q, Abreu).  

We’ve doubled it to eight, essentially.  But those final “over the top” pieces...or even supplemental moves to upgrade where you’re getting 1.5-2.5 fWAR out of RF, DH, 2B, etc., those remain especially elusive.

After all this “tryout” time, three full seasons, the only useful pieces to come forth (after the obvious headliners) are Leury Garcia, maybe Fry, Bummer and McCann.