Possible SS

[whitesox61382]

There has been a lot of talk about SS canidates for next year. It seems like the majority of people don't want Valentin back and I am on that boat. Tejada and Matsui are the top FA SS, but both are out of the Sox financial ability. Cabrera could be a decent, REALITIVEY cheap option, but I still don't think the Sox will spend much money on the FA market. A guy that no one has mentioned, or knows much about is the San Diego SS Ramon Vazquez. He isn't a great SS, but makes the minimum, is only 27, and would be a nice fit for the Sox. He could be available with San Diego giving the SS job to top prospect Greene. He would be a significant power decrease from Valentin, however, he is better in the areas that need improvement. He will probably hit in the .260-.270 range, which isn't great, but a nice improvement over Valentin. He has solid plate disipline and has managed to post an OBP over .340 the last 2 years. He doesn't have great speed, but he is a smart baserunner, and could be compared to a younger Valentin on the basepads. He is above average defensively, and similar to Clayton because he doesn't have great range or arm, but makes all of the routine plays with few errors. He is also very versatile and can play either 2B or 3B as well. Another positive that I have heard about him is that he has a great work ethic. At 27 there is still room for improvement and he could be a long term solution. I think it would be wise for the Sox to check him out. It might not take more then a pitcher liek Wright/Ginter/Diaz to get him. Sox fans have to face the reality that KW has very little flexibility with the payroll that is currently tied up and many holes to fill. I think Vazquez would be a legit option that fits financially. What are your thoughts?

[Chisoxfn]

I don't mind Vazquez, but I wouldn't give up anything too decent for him. He really reminds me of Jimenez.

 

I'm not comparing attitudes, but I just find them to be similar players. Good OBP, solid defensively. Remember, I was a big Jimenez fan, so this isn't a knock on Vazquez.

[DBAHO]

Hmmm he'd be an option if da Padres go after Tejada. Could get .290 and 20 to 30 SB's at the top of the order, dunno if he's a good enough fielder, but yeah sure he's an option.

[CWSOX45]

I don't mind Vazquez, but I wouldn't give up anything too decent for him.  He really reminds me of Jimenez. 

 

I'm not comparing attitudes, but I just find them to be similar players.  Good OBP, solid defensively.  Remember, I was a big Jimenez fan, so this isn't a knock on Vazquez.

Jason, I liked your idea about getting Khalil Greene. Let the Pads have Vazquez or let them sign Tejada if they want another big name player in their park.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing Greene in a Sox uniform, especially after watching him play at Clemson in the College World Series.

 

CWSOX45

[JoshPR]

There has been a lot of talk about SS canidates for next year. It seems like the majority of people don't want Valentin back and I am on that boat. Tejada and Matsui are the top FA SS, but both are out of the Sox financial ability. Cabrera could be a decent, REALITIVEY cheap option, but I still don't think the Sox will spend much money on the FA market. A guy that no one has mentioned, or knows much about is the San Diego SS Ramon Vazquez. He isn't a great SS, but makes the minimum, is only 27, and would be a nice fit for the Sox. He could be available with San Diego giving the SS job to top prospect Greene. He would be a significant power decrease from Valentin, however, he is better in the areas that need improvement. He will probably hit in the .260-.270 range, which isn't great, but a nice improvement over Valentin. He has solid plate disipline and has managed to post an OBP over .340 the last 2 years. He doesn't have great speed, but he is a smart baserunner, and could be compared to a younger Valentin on the basepads. He is above average defensively, and similar to Clayton because he doesn't have great range or arm, but makes all of the routine plays with few errors. He is also very versatile and can play either 2B or 3B as well. Another positive that I have heard about him is that he has a great work ethic. At 27 there is still room for improvement and he could be a long term solution. I think it would be wise for the Sox to check him out. It might not take more then a pitcher liek Wright/Ginter/Diaz to get him. Sox fans have to face the reality that KW has very little flexibility with the payroll that is currently tied up and many holes to fill. I think Vazquez would be a legit option that fits financially. What are your thoughts?

Vazquez is pretty good. But's gonna be moved to second base. He hardly never plays Short in Winterball either. So i don't think he's an Option.

 

People complain about Jose but what else is out there after Tejada and Renteria? Jose Hernandez?? Please No, Rey Ordoñez is gonna retire Clayton..NOT!!! So not much out there. I think Jose can keep short warm until Robert Valido is Ready.

[whitesox61382]

"I don't mind Vazquez, but I wouldn't give up anything too decent for him. He really reminds me of Jimenez.

 

I'm not comparing attitudes, but I just find them to be similar players. Good OBP, solid defensively. Remember, I was a big Jimenez fan, so this isn't a knock on Vazquez."

 

I still think Jimenez is going to be a good player in this league despite his attitude.

 

"Hmmm he'd be an option if da Padres go after Tejada. Could get .290 and 20 to 30 SB's at the top of the order, dunno if he's a good enough fielder, but yeah sure he's an option."

 

The thing that I like about Vazquez is his plate disipline. If he can get his average in the .280 range, than he will likely have a .360+ OBP, which would look nice in the #2 hole. His D is actually pretty solid. He doesn't have great range or arm, but makes very few errors and is versatile.

[CWSOX45]

Vazquez is pretty good. But's gonna be moved to second base. He hardly never plays Short in Winterball either. So i don't think he's an Option.

 

People complain about Jose but what else is out there after Tejada and Renteria? Jose Hernandez?? Please No, Rey Ordoñez is gonna retire Clayton..NOT!!! So not much out there. I think Jose can keep short warm until Robert Valido is Ready.

LOL. I don't want Jose here that long!!!!! Valido is still a LONG WAY away from the majors.

 

We need an answer now, and I dont think Jose is the answer.

 

CWSOX45

[whitesox61382]

"Jason, I liked your idea about getting Khalil Greene. Let the Pads have Vazquez or let them sign Tejada if they want another big name player in their park."

 

I doubt that San Diego goes after Tejada. They have enough offense and top prospect Greene to play SS. Look for them to spend money on pitching this offseason. I don't think Greene will be available. I also think Greene is a little overrated. I am a strong believer in plate disipline, especially in young hitters, and Greene has yet to show solid plate disipline in the minors and looked overmatched in the small sample at the end of the year.

 

"Vazquez is pretty good. But's gonna be moved to second base. He hardly never plays Short in Winterball either. So i don't think he's an Option.

 

People complain about Jose but what else is out there after Tejada and Renteria? Jose Hernandez?? Please No, Rey Ordoñez is gonna retire Clayton..NOT!!! So not much out there. I think Jose can keep short warm until Robert Valido is Ready."

 

I would rather have Vazquez keeping that spot warm instead of Valentin(Valido is at least 3 years away though so it will be a long wait). He will give you a better average, better OBP, better D, cheaper, younger, more versatile, and slightly better speed.

[JoshPR]

I bet Valido is here in 2 years. At least i'm betting he will be.

 

If it was up to me I would like Renteria but too much money is involved. If we could get Cabrera than Thanks Jose.. But Orlando is here

[Jim Fainter]

We are stuck with Jose at SS for 2004.

[whitesox61382]

"We are stuck with Jose at SS for 2004."

 

Is this just your gut feeling? I think Sox management is looking for a change. They have been mentioned with Tejada and to some degree Matusi, which leads me to believe that Valentin's days are numbered. I doubt that management is serious about going after either, but I think it is an indication that Valentin will not be the starting SS next year. I really think that the Sox should take a look at Vazquez. He isn't a great SS, but he is a better option then Valentin, especially when you consider age and salary. It is just speculation on my behalf though. All I know for sure is that KW is going to have his hands full this offseason and Sox fans could see a lot of new faces next year(for better or worse).

 

"I bet Valido is here in 2 years. At least i'm betting he will be."

 

HIGHLY unlikely. The kid is 18 and just graduated high school. I HOPE that the Sox don't even think about rushing him like that either. That is one way to really hurt a prospects development. If you are willing to bet that he will be in Chicago in 2 years, than I recommend staying away from Vegas, because that is not a good bet. Here is the most likely progression of Valido, assuming he doesn't get injuried and continues to develop, which in itself is a major question(a good half year in rookie ball is way to small of a sample size to make an accurate judgement). He will most likely start next year in advanced rookie ball, and MAYBE will get a taste of low A ball. In 2005 he will probably start in low A ball and MIGHT make it to high A ball if he plays well. In 2006 he will probably start in high A ball POSSIBLE AA if he is really progressing fast. In 2007 he will probably start in AA or AAA and MIGHT get his 1st major league action at some point during the 2007 season. This is probably the earliest that you will see Valido, and that is boardline rushing him. So he is AT LEAST 3 years away and probably longer.

 

"If it was up to me I would like Renteria but too much money is involved. If we could get Cabrera than Thanks Jose.. But Orlando is here"

 

I would love to see either Renteria or Cabrera in a Sox uniform, but I just don't see that happening. What Sox fans fail to realize is that the current payroll for 2004, taking into consideration contract raises and likely increases through arbitration, is pretty close to the total payroll amount that the Sox will have, and that still leaves MANY holes such as the middle infield, starting pitching, and bullpen. My guess is that the Sox will not be big players on the FA market. Look for KW to move AT LEAST 1 big salary and possible 2 or 3, and filling in the holes with these trades and the rest with cheap options(like a Vazquez at SS). Players like Tejada and Matsui are pipedreams.

[YASNY]

Is this just your gut feeling? I think Sox management is looking for a change. They have been mentioned with Tejada and to some degree Matusi, which leads me to believe that Valentin's days are numbered. I doubt that management is serious about going after either, but I think it is an indication that Valentin will not be the starting SS next year. I really think that the Sox should take a look at Vazquez. He isn't a great SS, but he is a better option then Valentin, especially when you consider age and salary. It is just speculation on my behalf though. All I know for sure is that KW is going to have his hands full this offseason and Sox fans could see a lot of new faces next year(for better or worse).

 

 

Are you saying the White Sox have been mentioned with Tejada and Matsui? Other fans wishful thinking fans, who has mentioned the Sox considering going after either one of these guys? If you have a source, I'd love to see or hear it.

[Al Lopez Ghost (old)]

Is this just your gut feeling? I think Sox management is looking for a change. They have been mentioned with Tejada and to some degree Matusi, which leads me to believe that Valentin's days are numbered. I doubt that management is serious about going after either, but I think it is an indication that Valentin will not be the starting SS next year. I really think that the Sox should take a look at Vazquez. He isn't a great SS, but he is a better option then Valentin, especially when you consider age and salary. It is just speculation on my behalf though. All I know for sure is that KW is going to have his hands full this offseason and Sox fans could see a lot of new faces next year(for better or worse).

 

 

Are you saying the White Sox have been mentioned with Tejada and Matsui? Other fans wishful thinking fans, who has mentioned the Sox considering going after either one of these guys? If you have a source, I'd love to see or hear it.

I don't have the cites, but someone has posted on this board newspaper opinion pieces - might have been from ESPN - that mentioned the White Sox as an interested party for both of them. Personally, I think it's hogwash.

[winninguglyin83]

Valido?

 

he's just out of high school and played a half-season of rookie ball.

 

1. He's less than 50-50 to even make the big leagues.

 

2. If he does make it, it won't be until 2007 or 2008 at the earliest.

 

Andy Gonzalez was as highly rated as Valido two years ago. Then he moved into the Sally League this year and the bottom fell out on his offense.

 

We wasted that Number One pick on Jason Dellaero. He was supposed to be The Guy at SS by now. As much as we all complained about Manuel and Koch and Konerko, scouting and development have failed the Sox as much as anything.

 

All the draft picks burned on the Mark Johnsons, Jeff Liefers, Jason Dellaeros, Brett Caradonnas, Bobby Seays, Jasons Stumms, Rob Purvises, Joe Borchards and Wyatt Allens explain the mess we're in.

[Rex Hudler]

We wasted that Number One pick on Jason Dellaero. He was supposed to be The Guy at SS by now.

 

He would be the Sox SS today without a doubt....... IF you could DH for the SS instead of the pitcher! lol

 

All the draft picks burned on the Mark Johnsons, Jeff Liefers, Jason Dellaeros, Brett Caradonnas, Bobby Seays, Jasons Stumms, Rob Purvises, Joe Borchards and Wyatt Allens explain the mess we're in.

 

I don't want to get into a debate over blown draft picks because I don't have the time nor the desire to research 29 other teams..... But ALL teams have high draft picks that don't pan out. Many more picks don't pan than do.

 

And looking at your list..... Liefer and Johnson made the bigs, Dellaero was too damned stubborn to change, can't blame the Sox because Stumm got hurt twice, Purvis has had two surgeies now (although I am not convinced he would have made it anyway, but you never know), Borchard still has a chance as well as Allen. Sometimes you have to take a chance on guys that are risks but could have a high ceiling.

[Loaiza21]

I think it's time we draft a SS in the first round.

 

And whenever people say Ramon Vazquez, I think skinny, weak, slow, Jimenez.....

[SoxFan1]

That is the exact same thing I thought of when he mentioned Padres and SS. Jimenez, NO!

[winninguglyin83]

agreed that all teams waste picks. Every team makes bad calls, many in the first round.

 

drafting and development is a difficult thing to do well.

But the Sox big run in the early 90s was fueled, in part, by four fabulous first round picks in consecutive seasons -- McDowell, Ventura, Thomas and Fernandez.

 

We benefitted from having some high picks. But they were still picks that were on the money. And, they were all college guys. I agree with Billy Beane's philosophy of not taking high school kids in the first round. We've been burned by several.

 

Now, let's look at some of the recent blunders:

 

1996 -- drafted Bobby Seay (whom they failed to sign, thankfully because he's been an expensive bust with Tampa). Could have had Eric Milton or Gil Meche.

 

1997 -- Took Jason Dellaero (could have had Lance Berkman or Adam Kennedy)

 

1998 -- Took Kip Wells (and traded him for Alpo; could have had CC Sabathia, Brad Wilkerson or Adam Dunn.)

 

1999 -- Took Jason Stumm (who has been unlucky with injuries, but he was a high school kid and risky; could have had Kurt Ainsworth, Mike MacDougle, Jerome Williams or Ben Broussard)

 

2000 -- drafted Joe Borchard (still a prospect, but only if he cuts way down on strikeouts; could have had Chase Utley, Billy Traber or Adam Wainwright).

 

Frank Thomas, drafted in 1989, is the only homegrown first-round pick who contributed to the 2003 team.

 

The drafting needs to improve.

[mac9001]

Orlando Cabrera = big money, 5-7 mil per season/4 years. A SS that puts up .297-17-80 and plays great D will command a s***load of money.

[winninguglyin83]

i take it that Jorge Nunez (ss at charlotte), Guillermo Reyes (Birmingham SS) and Michael Morse (SS at Winston Salem) are not viable options

[Jim Fainter]

The Sox painted themselves into a corner. Jose has an option for $5 MM. That makes him untradeable. Regarding that position, you might as well be thinking about 2005.

[southsider2k5]

The Sox painted themselves into a corner.  Jose has an option for $5 MM.  That makes him untradeable.  Regarding that position, you might as well be thinking about 2005.

Jose's option was based on PA's wasn't it? I don't think he has an option anymore then...

[CWSOX45]

Jose's option was based on PA's wasn't it?  I don't think he has an option anymore then...

It was, the last I heard he came up short too.

 

BUH BYE JOSE!!

 

CWSOX45

[aboz56]

agreed that all teams waste picks. Every team makes bad calls, many in the first round.

 

drafting and development is a difficult thing to do well.

But the Sox big run in the early 90s was fueled, in part, by four fabulous first round picks in consecutive seasons -- McDowell, Ventura, Thomas and Fernandez.

 

We benefitted from having some high picks. But they were still picks that were on the money. And, they were all college guys. I agree with Billy Beane's philosophy of not taking high school kids in the first round. We've been burned by several.

 

Now, let's look at some of the recent blunders:

 

1996 -- drafted Bobby Seay (whom they failed to sign, thankfully because he's been an expensive bust with Tampa). Could have had Eric Milton or Gil Meche.

 

1997 -- Took Jason Dellaero (could have had Lance Berkman or Adam Kennedy)

 

1998 -- Took Kip Wells (and traded him for Alpo; could have had CC Sabathia, Brad Wilkerson or Adam Dunn.)

 

1999 -- Took Jason Stumm (who has been unlucky with injuries, but he was a high school kid and risky; could have had Kurt Ainsworth, Mike MacDougle, Jerome Williams or Ben Broussard)

 

2000 -- drafted Joe Borchard (still a prospect, but only if he cuts way down on strikeouts; could have had Chase Utley, Billy Traber or Adam Wainwright).

 

Frank Thomas, drafted in 1989, is the only homegrown first-round pick who contributed to the 2003 team.

 

The drafting needs to improve.

Agreed on all points.

[Jim Fainter]

Regarding Jose, you might be right, CWSOX. He had 503 AB's + 53 Walks. I think he needed 570 PA's. Don't know about his Sac's or hit by pitches. Anybody have this info?