Don Cooper’s Eventual Replacement

[SkokieSox]

11 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

There is a story on the athletic from last year, where Giolito talks about how much Farquhar helped him. He's the reason Giolito ditched his sinker for the high 4 seamer. 

 

10 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I believe he’s very analytical and heavy into Trackman data.  We definitely need a more modern thinking pitching coach when Cooper calls it quits IMO.

Thanks! Didn’t realize, very promising! I’ll try finding that article. 

[pcq]

2 hours ago, bmags said:

The Mets pitching coach is 82.

Before your time but Phil Regan aka The Vulture was a prominent reliever with the infamous tanking 1969 Cubs. Leo Durocher used him every day until he broke down.

[TaylorStSox]

I think people get too caught up in the results of an individual players and consider it a trend. Different coach's, techniques, and philosophies are going to resonate with players differently. It's like any teaching style. I could just as easily say, "Nova, Lopez and Bummer look outstanding. Cooper still has it." 

[turnin' two]

Is there a Don Cooper Jr?

[demonbluess]

Don Cooper will go when he butts heads with the next manager, presumably someone who is strong willed and established and meant to lead us through multiple playoff runs.

[SoxAce]

3 hours ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

Another outside the box candidate that might not seem outside the box very soon is Danny Farquhar. 

I mentioned him in the GT yesterday as someone I'd rather see at this point.

[bmags]

12 minutes ago, SmashROT said:

Don Cooper will get promoted when he butts heads with the next manager, presumably someone who is strong willed and established and meant to lead us through multiple playoff runs.

fify

[pcq]

13 minutes ago, SmashROT said:

Don Cooper will go when he butts heads with the next manager, presumably someone who is strong willed and established and meant to lead us through multiple playoff runs.

In the past Donnie has been the mgr snitch and also rags on the fans for not attending. As long as he is open to change he can be a good thing. Team approach is needed. 

[Dominikk85]

Well minor league pitching dev wasn't that great the last years. Almost everyone got hurt and the guys who did well all were already in AA-AAA so mostly developed by other clubs  except for cease.

After sale and quintana the sox didn't really develope another good starting pitcher from within (I'm talking guys who were drafted, intentionally signed or traded for while still in A ball, not AAA pitchers traded for like giolito, kopech, lopez)

So I would prefer an external solution, not just promoting a minor league guy based on tenure and good standing in the franchise.

[bubba phillips]

2 hours ago, pcq said:

Before your time but Phil Regan aka The Vulture was a prominent reliever with the infamous tanking 1969 Cubs. Leo Durocher used him every day until he broke down.

????

[Texsox]

Sigh, look at former players from circa 2000. McDowell or Buehrle.

#expecttheworse

Joking, a little

[kitekrazy]

On 8/16/2019 at 9:22 AM, Chicago White Sox said:

Are you suggesting he may not retiree soon?

 I doubt it.  He's gold in the organization.   It doesn't appear he wants to be a manager either.  The ownership treats him like he's another Bill Billichick.

[caulfield12]

2 hours ago, kitekrazy said:

 I doubt it.  He's gold in the organization.   It doesn't appear he wants to be a manager either.  The ownership treats him like he's another Bill Billichick.

More like Charlie Weis...

[GradMc]

On 8/16/2019 at 11:34 AM, bmags said:

i'm prepared for that.

Like the owner.

Doesn't know when to shut it down.

Reinsdorf should have taken his last curtain call after his successful one year revival of Damn Yankees in 2005. 

Instead some 14 years later we still feel the pain when he did the mambo.

Edited August 19, 2019 by GradMc

[poppysox]

On 8/16/2019 at 3:40 PM, TaylorStSox said:

I think people get too caught up in the results of an individual players and consider it a trend. Different coach's, techniques, and philosophies are going to resonate with players differently. It's like any teaching style. I could just as easily say, "Nova, Lopez and Bummer look outstanding. Cooper still has it." 

Good point.

[poppysox]

On 8/17/2019 at 11:30 AM, Texsox said:

Sigh, look at former players from circa 2000. McDowell or Buehrle.

#expecttheworse

Joking, a little

Buehrle would be a very popular choice.  He knows how to pitch...not just throw.

[southsideirish71]

41 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Buehrle would be a very popular choice.  He knows how to pitch...not just throw.



I don't know what the fascination is with ex-players automatically becoming coaches based on their playing career.   Robin Ventura was an absolute beast of a player.  Slick glove, great approach at the plate.   How exactly did that work out as a manager.   Its a twist of your fandom for the player clouding your judgement. 

If any of these guys wants a job then work your way through the minors learning the craft.  

 

 

[Thad Bosley]

1 hour ago, southsideirish71 said:

I don't know what the fascination is with ex-players automatically becoming coaches based on their playing career.   Robin Ventura was an absolute beast of a player.  Slick glove, great approach at the plate.   How exactly did that work out as a manager.   Its a twist of your fandom for the player clouding your judgement. 

If any of these guys wants a job then work your way through the minors learning the craft.  

 

 

The converse of Ventura would be someone like Tony LaRussa.  Utility infielder who ended up with a .199 career average, but then turned into a HOF manager.  

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

After reading Fegan's piece in September about continuity within the system and one voice/message throughout all levels, paired with the massive jump in analytics this year at the MLB level, I find the anger directed at Cooper by fans to be misguided. 

When you read Eno Sarris talk about how the average pitching coach tenure is 1 season, you realize that continuity is likely a better driving force of success than constant turnover. You will have peaks and valleys within the tenure, but the continuity from level to level has a lot of value. Cooper also isn't as archaic as people think.

An excerpt from one of the articles I found promising:

But Giolito — who ditched his sinker and returned to working exclusively with a high-riding four-seamer because of a report from White Sox analytics in spring training — says that the simplicity of in-game cues frequently belies the complexity of mid-week work on spin axis, ride, spin rate, angle and extension. Getting López’s fastball to ride like it did over the barrels of Cleveland hitters all afternoon has been a back-and-forth battle with frequent hiccups. But it’s been about establishing in side sessions what elements in his delivery will produce the fastball action they’re looking for with Trackman and Rapsodo data, and getting him to carry that into games.

“A lot of credit to Coop and Has (bullpen coach Curt Hasler) with having the old-school background, old-school pitching mentality and learning all this stuff from our analytics department,” Giolito said. “Really, really educating themselves so they can in turn help all the pitchers. We look at that stuff on an almost daily basis in our bullpens and stuff like that and that’s been super beneficial to me this year. When I can look at an outing and see I climbed up a little higher (in release point) and my ride wasn’t as good. OK, let me go into my next bullpen and focus on getting back into my good (arm) slot and then we have the Rapsodo on it and it’s like oh, there it is, there’s the carry and the way the ball should be coming out. A lot of credit to them for learning all that stuff, taking it all on.”

Edited November 15, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[SoxBlanco]

23 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

After reading Fegan's piece in September about continuity within the system and one voice/message throughout all levels, paired with the massive jump in analytics this year at the MLB level, I find the anger directed at Cooper by fans to be misguided. 

When you read Eno Sarris talk about how the average pitching coach tenure is 1 season, you realize that continuity is likely a better driving force of success than constant turnover. You will have peaks and valleys within the tenure, but the continuity from level to level has a lot of value. Cooper also isn't as archaic as people think.

An excerpt from one of the articles I found promising:

But Giolito — who ditched his sinker and returned to working exclusively with a high-riding four-seamer because of a report from White Sox analytics in spring training — says that the simplicity of in-game cues frequently belies the complexity of mid-week work on spin axis, ride, spin rate, angle and extension. Getting López’s fastball to ride like it did over the barrels of Cleveland hitters all afternoon has been a back-and-forth battle with frequent hiccups. But it’s been about establishing in side sessions what elements in his delivery will produce the fastball action they’re looking for with Trackman and Rapsodo data, and getting him to carry that into games.

“A lot of credit to Coop and Has (bullpen coach Curt Hasler) with having the old-school background, old-school pitching mentality and learning all this stuff from our analytics department,” Giolito said. “Really, really educating themselves so they can in turn help all the pitchers. We look at that stuff on an almost daily basis in our bullpens and stuff like that and that’s been super beneficial to me this year. When I can look at an outing and see I climbed up a little higher (in release point) and my ride wasn’t as good. OK, let me go into my next bullpen and focus on getting back into my good (arm) slot and then we have the Rapsodo on it and it’s like oh, there it is, there’s the carry and the way the ball should be coming out. A lot of credit to them for learning all that stuff, taking it all on.”

Fantastic post. Thank you.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

11 minutes ago, SoxBlanco said:

Fantastic post. Thank you.

That entire article is a great read; there are other excerpts as exciting as the above but I don't want to direct link too much because it's a subscription service.

The piece about Cooper today in Fegan's piece touched on all of this further; some excerpts from that - I agree very much with the following.

“There is a benefit to having the continuity of instruction, the fact our drafted players are hearing the same message in the minor leagues that they’ll hear all the way up the chain in Chicago,” Hahn said. “That’s in part because of the long-term continuity of Coop and the other pitching coaches in the organization. Another layer, our scouts have a really good sense of what type of arm action and deliveries we feel as a staff we’re really good at getting better, and what hangups we avoid because historically we haven’t seen good results from. There is a great benefit from that continuity from a development and scouting standpoint.”

 

[caulfield12]

If this is the case, why so many pitching injuries at the major/minor levels...the failures of most of the projected collegiate relievers along with top line disappointments like Fulmer/Hansen/Burdi /Adams, etc.?

Imagine you stripped away Gio, Lopez, Dunning, Kopech and Cease...going all the way back to the time of the Rodon selection.

Who have we successfully developed on our own since Sale/Q?

Bummer and Fry?  Lambert?

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

11 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

If this is the case, why so many pitching injuries at the major/minor levels...the failures of most of the projected collegiate relievers along with top line disappointments like Fulmer/Hansen/Burdi /Adams, etc.?

Imagine you stripped away Gio, Lopez, Dunning, Kopech and Cease...going all the way back to the time of the Rodon selection.

Who have we successfully developed on our own since Sale/Q?

Bummer and Fry?  Lambert?

Yeah, let's strip away all the success stories and then evaluate the effectiveness of the system then - that'll tell us a great story. Great take.

No matter how good you are, you're going to have failures.

It doesn't mean you'll always be correct. The Sox track record with pitching isn't bad in the least bit.

So many pitching injuries ha; all they've done is revert to the mean. Likely their shoulder programs and etc have been copied and implemented across the league. Edges in baseball don't last very long; if you're doing something really well, it won't take long before people start copying your system.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Yeah, let's strip away all the success stories and then evaluate the effectiveness of the system then - that'll tell us a great story. Great take.

No matter how good you are, you're going to have failures.

It doesn't mean you'll always be correct. The Sox track record with pitching isn't bad in the least bit.

So many pitching injuries ha; all they've done is revert to the mean. Likely their shoulder programs and etc have been copied and implemented across the league. Edges in baseball don't last very long; if you're doing something really well, it won't take long before people start copying your system.

Should all those injuries be happening to relievers as well as starters?

Our entire foundation...other than Lopez, is based upon a set of pitchers with at least one TJ surgery in their history.  High potential, sure, but also high volatility.   Which is the biggest reason they need to add the pitchers now in FA.

Somehow teams like the Rays, A’s, Twins, Indians, Brewers and Braves can figure this stuff out while investing a lot less money than we have historically into our starting rotations.  Even with the Rays getting hit by a series of setbacks to Snell, Glasnow and one of their top prospects, they still manage to roll right along.

We lose Kopech, and it seemingly set the rebuild back 1 1/2 years.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Giolito was broken when the Sox acquired him - he's now, arguably, a top 10 arm in baseball.

Kopech couldn't find command; he struggled early with the Sox before finding his release point and really taking off. 

Dunning had developed really nicely before the injury.

The Sox got a 4 MPH increase out of Stievers fastball in ONE off-season.

They turned Tommy Kahnle, 

Anthony Swarzak went from worthless, to a piece they traded at the deadline for something. 

I won't even get into the find and development of Q and Sale.