Don Cooper’s Eventual Replacement

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Should all those injuries be happening to relievers as well as starters?

Our entire foundation...other than Lopez, is based upon a set of pitchers with at least one TJ surgery in their history.  High potential, sure, but also high volatility.   Which is the biggest reason they need to add the pitchers now in FA.

Somehow teams like the Rays, A’s, Twins, Indians, Brewers and Braves can figure this stuff out while investing a lot less money than we have historically into our starting rotations.  Even with the Rays getting hit by a series of setbacks to Snell, Glasnow and one of their top prospects, they still manage to roll right along.

We lose Kopech, and it seemingly set the rebuild back 1 1/2 years.

What do you mean? What are you asking? Do you think that the Sox now, somehow, are causing injuries? 

How did it set the rebuild back? What are you being critical of? You're just typing a bunch of stuff but not making any actual points. 

What have those teams figured out? 

[SoxAce]

I remember somebody here posted that article a few months ago about Cooper finally accepting and learning about the advanced analytic numbers. Fegan does a wonderful job at the Athletic. 

Edited November 15, 2019 by SoxAce

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

Just now, SoxAce said:

I remember somebody here posted that article a few months ago about Cooper finally accepting and learning about the advanced analytic numbers. Fegan does a wonderful job at the Athletic. 

Yeah, and now you have a coach who still has some old school mental mind trick coaching paired with an analytical mind. Cooper can be a bit of a curmudgeon, but those quotes and reviews from his staff - particularly Gio who is now the leader of that unit - are glowing and lead me to be very optimistic. 

I still have hope for Lopez too; assuming he can find that ride on his fastball consistently. Time will tell if he can; it's clearly an arm action issue. 

[caulfield12]

7 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

What do you mean? What are you asking? Do you think that the Sox now, somehow, are causing injuries? 

How did it set the rebuild back? What are you being critical of? You're just typing a bunch of stuff but not making any actual points. 

What have those teams figured out? 

The rebuild was pretty poorly structured for Balta to have gone from proclaiming it a dynamic dynasty in the making...to however you would describe his current take.

Losing Kopech to injury removed 2019 from being the .500ish year and pushed contending all the way back to possibly the second half of 2020 or first half of 2021.

Imagine we lose one of Giolito, Cease, Kopech to injury again after having only added Wheeler...or the very real possibility the gamble on Wheeler doesn’t go as expected.

What do we have to trade with, then?  We are heading right back to a mid 20’s ranked farm system after graduating Robert, Madrigal and Vaughn.

Then the payroll would be forced into the $150-165 million range out of necessity (dipping back into FA like the Cubs have been forced into)...because rebuilding again obviously wouldn’t seem to be a realistic option.

Edited November 15, 2019 by caulfield12

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

The rebuild was pretty poorly structured for Balta to have gone from proclaiming it a dynamic dynasty in the making...to however you would describe his current take.

Losing Kopech to injury removed 2019 from being the .500ish year and pushed contending all the way back to possibly the second half of 2020 or first half of 2021.

Imagine we lose one of Giolito, Cease, Kopech to injury again after having only added Wheeler...or the very real possibility the gamble on Wheeler doesn’t go as expected.

What do we have to trade with, then?  We are heading right back to a mid 20’s ranked farm system after graduating Robert, Madrigal and Vaughn.

What are you being critical of? What does any of this have to do with this thread?

Yes, if their best starter gets hurt that would be bad. 

How do you contend in just one half of baseball?

How was kopech going to make a 70 win team into an 82 win team?

Development isnt linear. Guys you were disappointed in last year could make adjustments and come out strong. You honestly never know. 

Why is Balta the one that determines the success of the rebuild?

Edited November 15, 2019 by Look at Ray Ray Run

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

4 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

The rebuild was pretty poorly structured for Balta to have gone from proclaiming it a dynamic dynasty in the making...to however you would describe his current take.

Losing Kopech to injury removed 2019 from being the .500ish year and pushed contending all the way back to possibly the second half of 2020 or first half of 2021.

Imagine we lose one of Giolito, Cease, Kopech to injury again after having only added Wheeler...or the very real possibility the gamble on Wheeler doesn’t go as expected.

What do we have to trade with, then?  We are heading right back to a mid 20’s ranked farm system after graduating Robert, Madrigal and Vaughn.

Then the payroll would be forced into the $150-165 million range out of necessity (dipping back into FA like the Cubs have been forced into)...because rebuilding again obviously wouldn’t seem to be a realistic option.

A payroll being 150-165 means the rebuild didnt work? So the cubs and astros rebuilds didnt work? You're all over the place. 

Also, again this has nothing to do with this thread or my posts. You're just going thread to thread to complain about the same thing.

[caulfield12]

Just now, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

What are you being critical of? What does any of this have to do with this thread?

Yes, if their best starter gets hurt that would be bad. 

How do you contend in just one half of baseball?

How was kopech going to make a 70 win team into an 82 win team?

Development isnt linear. Guys you were disappointed in last year could make adjustments and come out strong. You honestly never know. 

Every year under KW/Hahn, we always had this mentality of fixing things at the ASB and only adding at that time if attendance was on the upswing and the team was in a “realistically competitive” position.

The last times we set out to compete from Opening Day were April, 2006 and 2011 with Dunn and you can argue rest of the decade if you are so inclined.

[caulfield12]

1 minute ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

A payroll being 150-165 means the rebuild didnt work? So the cubs and astros rebuilds didnt work? You're all over the place. 

Also, again this has nothing to do with this thread or my posts. You're just going thread to thread to complain about the same thing.

If you can guarantee JR will be comfortable spending that much, there’s absolutely nothing to be concerned about.

Of course, payroll range still wouldn’t put us in below the bottom fringe of last year’s playoff field.  Good enough to make it, but not realistically constructed to compete with the big boys. 

[hi8is]

Peter Joseph Incaviglia

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

3 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Every year under KW/Hahn, we always had this mentality of fixing things at the ASB and only adding at that time if attendance was on the upswing and the team was in a “realistically competitive” position.

The last times we set out to compete from Opening Day were April, 2006 and 2011 with Dunn and you can argue rest of the decade if you are so inclined.

What the heck does any of this have to do with Don Cooper's acceptance and strong embrace of advanced analytics for developing his pitching staff? 

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

If you can guarantee JR will be comfortable spending that much, there’s absolutely nothing to be concerned about.

Of course, payroll range still wouldn’t put us in below the bottom fringe of last year’s playoff field.  Good enough to make it, but not realistically constructed to compete with the big boys. 

165 million would put them at the same level as the Astros; do they struggle to compete with the "big boys?"

I'm going to go ahead and stop responding as you are derailing the point of the thread with non-relateable posts complaining about completely irrelevant things. 

[DirtySox]

Nothing can be said to be certain, except death, taxes, and Caulfield posts.

[caulfield12]

2 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

165 million would put them at the same level as the Astros; do they struggle to compete with the "big boys?"

I'm going to go ahead and stop responding as you are derailing the point of the thread with non-relateable posts complaining about completely irrelevant things. 

You act like one Fegan article mitigates every long-standing concern with Cooper.

It doesn’t work that way.

If Lopez, Cease, Kopech and Giolito...if two of those guys consistently pitch like Cy Young candidates throughout the next three seasons, I’ll more than happily say I was wrong about Don Cooper.  You can go back to this thread and keep reposting it at the top of the site as we make the playoffs for at least three consecutive years.

Time will tell.  About Cooper’s health, and that of the pitching staff.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

1 minute ago, caulfield12 said:

You act like one Fegan article mitigates every long-standing concern with Cooper.

It doesn’t work that way.

If Lopez, Cease, Kopech and Giolito...if two of those guys consistently pitch like Cy Young candidates throughout the next three seasons, I’ll more than happily say I was wrong about Don Cooper.  You can go back to this thread and keep reposting it at the top of the site as we make the playoffs for at least three consecutive years.

Time will tell.  About Cooper’s health, and that of the pitching staff.

The concern was never warranted in the first place. 

Cooper has a nice track record and noticeable impact on very specific arm types. In a tenure as long as his, times will change and failures will happen. Being WILLING to change with the times while pairing that with some old school thoughts that made him successful says a lot about the guy. 

People love firing coaches in sports; in reality, continuity and consistency at the positions correlates better to success than not.

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

Danny Farquhar 

[Chicago White Sox]

2 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

The rebuild was pretty poorly structured for Balta to have gone from proclaiming it a dynamic dynasty in the making...to however you would describe his current take.

Losing Kopech to injury removed 2019 from being the .500ish year and pushed contending all the way back to possibly the second half of 2020 or first half of 2021.

Imagine we lose one of Giolito, Cease, Kopech to injury again after having only added Wheeler...or the very real possibility the gamble on Wheeler doesn’t go as expected.

What do we have to trade with, then?  We are heading right back to a mid 20’s ranked farm system after graduating Robert, Madrigal and Vaughn.

Then the payroll would be forced into the $150-165 million range out of necessity (dipping back into FA like the Cubs have been forced into)...because rebuilding again obviously wouldn’t seem to be a realistic option.

Citing Balta’s ridiculously pessimistic opinions as proof of the rebuild failing may be an all-time low for Soxtalk.

[poppysox]

1 hour ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

Danny Farquhar 

Another thing to like about how the WS treat their own.

[pcq]

Only G*d replaces Don Cooper you sob.  

[hi8is]

9 minutes ago, pcq said:

Only G*d replaces Don Cooper you sob.  

[GradMc]

On 8/16/2019 at 11:22 AM, Chicago White Sox said:

Are you suggesting he may not retiree soon?

Ray Berres would over well 100 if we were still allive and I would take him over anybody out there.

The best White Sox pitching coach ever...not even close.

Age has nothing to do with it, millenials. 

An effective pitching coach's best asset rests with his power of persuasion. 

Ray had it

Don doesn't.

 

Edited November 17, 2019 by GradMc

[Sleepy Harold]

26 minutes ago, GradMc said:

Ray Berres would over well 100 if we were still allive and I would take him over anybody out there.

The best White Sox pitching coach ever...not even close.

Age has nothing to do with it, millenials. 

An effective pitching coach's best asset rests with his power of persuasion. 

Ray had it

Don doesn't.

 

Ok boomer.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

https://theathletic.com/1563110/2020/01/27/we-look-at-the-numbers-every-day-white-sox-tout-technology-usage-in-scouting-player-development/?source=shared-article

Another deep dive into the White Sox all-in mentality pertaining technology and data analysis; spearheaded by Cooper and his team. 

Some quotes from the article;
 

“You have to have evaluation and you have to have technology — we want scouts that can use both,” Shirley said. “We’re trying to define who’s got the best fastball. Who’s got the best fastball command? Who’s got the best fastball stuff? Who’s got the best axis on it? Who’s got the best spin rate, who’s got the most carry on their fastball? This is the stuff our technology pieces are looking at.”

“There’s a fallacy going on that I’m so old school I don’t care about the numbers,” pitching coach Don Cooper said. “That couldn’t be further from the truth. We look at the numbers every day. We have the Rapsodo out every day. We have the high-speed camera out every day. Because you want every tool you can have that’s going to help.”

But he also reeled off motion and pitch-tracking systems Trackman, BlastMotion, K-Vest and Rapsodo by name. He broke down for fans how scouts use force plates to measure how players are pressing their feet into the ground during their swings, and how the correlation to bat speed has become requisite knowledge for his army of 17 area scouts.

 

Seems like the Sox have caught up quickly, and have likely already passed the Cubs in their analytics department.

[Jose Abreu]

14 minutes ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

https://theathletic.com/1563110/2020/01/27/we-look-at-the-numbers-every-day-white-sox-tout-technology-usage-in-scouting-player-development/?source=shared-article

Another deep dive into the White Sox all-in mentality pertaining technology and data analysis; spearheaded by Cooper and his team. 

Some quotes from the article;
 

“You have to have evaluation and you have to have technology — we want scouts that can use both,” Shirley said. “We’re trying to define who’s got the best fastball. Who’s got the best fastball command? Who’s got the best fastball stuff? Who’s got the best axis on it? Who’s got the best spin rate, who’s got the most carry on their fastball? This is the stuff our technology pieces are looking at.”

 “There’s a fallacy going on that I’m so old school I don’t care about the numbers,” pitching coach Don Cooper said. “That couldn’t be further from the truth. We look at the numbers every day. We have the Rapsodo out every day. We have the high-speed camera out every day. Because you want every tool you can have that’s going to help.”

 But he also reeled off motion and pitch-tracking systems Trackman, BlastMotion, K-Vest and Rapsodo by name. He broke down for fans how scouts use force plates to measure how players are pressing their feet into the ground during their swings, and how the correlation to bat speed has become requisite knowledge for his army of 17 area scouts.

  

Seems like the Sox have caught up quickly, and have likely already passed the Cubs in their analytics department.

I was there for Cooper's interview and it was crazy (in a good way) being there and hearing him say all the right things. The organization seems to have fully embraced analytics, almost overnight.

[Look at Ray Ray Run]

2 minutes ago, Jose Abreu said:

I was there for Cooper's interview and it was crazy (in a good way) being there and hearing him say all the right things. The organization seems to have fully embraced analytics, almost overnight.

Cooper appears to have been sold this by his own players - like Giolito. That said, all credit goes to Cooper for being willing to evolve with the times and change for the better of his players. Not all coaches - especially not those with the immense track record of Cooper - are willing to evolve. Cooper very clearly is all-in with these guys, and I think it's very clearly going to pay off. I have always felt Cooper was a master of the mental side of pitching coaching - which is one of, if not the biggest, battles pitchers face - and if he can combine that with some sound data analysis it makes him a special coach for these guys.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

1 hour ago, Jose Abreu said:

I was there for Cooper's interview and it was crazy (in a good way) being there and hearing him say all the right things. The organization seems to have fully embraced analytics, almost overnight.

This is good stuff. We've been missing a lot of tech-talk from those in charge making us think that if they can't throw the lingo around that things aren't happening. Shirley is going to be liked around here.

Might be time for a Shirley thread given this recent info and his quotes from Soxfest instead of using this old thread.

Edited January 27, 2020 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside