Machado do-over

[Eminor3rd]

6 hours ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

I’d think he’d bounce back a little offensively at some point over the next couple seasons but I can’t imagine his defense will improve as he ages so those may very well offset.

If he stays at short, maybe. If he hits like his career norm (even factoring down years) and is even a scratch defender at third, that's a 4-5 win season.

[poppysox]

11 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Carlos Rodon is never going to be a top of the rotation pitcher with the Chicago White Sox. He will be going 3.5 years without even being a decent pitcher for the Chicago White Sox by the time he comes back from this, his second major surgery in 3 years. You can't expect a guy to be that good coming back from TJS 12 months later if he comes back in June or so of next season as many guys need 18 months to recover fully. If he's even decent in 2021, 4 full seasons removed from the last time he was tolerable, he immediately hits free agency.

Carlos Rodon is a backup plan for this franchise at best and should not currently be counted on for anything more than that.

If he comes back strong...good trade bait at the end of 2020.  Boris is just a jerk to work with in finding reasonable compromise.

[Balta1701]

2 hours ago, fathom said:

Would be amazing

 

2 hours ago, Moan4Yoan said:

Hahn could redeem himself on last year’s whiffs if he acquires a one year stop-gap for RF this offseason and then signs Betts in the 2021 offseason.  That would be amazing.

I haven't thought about this at all...how do people think he will age?

[bmags]

I mean what if yanks made Stanton available...

He is a lot of the worst tendencies of the Sox, but there are few options and he offers some very high end (and low end) years.

would not cost crazy talent

[BackDoorBreach]

2 hours ago, bmags said:

I mean what if yanks made Stanton available...

He is a lot of the worst tendencies of the Sox, but there are few options and he offers some very high end (and low end) years.

would not cost crazy talent

He is hurt way too often and owed too much money.  If he didn't miss entire seasons at a time, sure.

[poppysox]

16 hours ago, Tony said:

Going to be interesting to see what the new philosophy is with the Red Sox. Mookie is obviously a guy you would build around.......but DD destroyed that farm system and there isn’t much to surround Devers and Betts longterm. 

Given their financial resources but knowing the intentions Betts has, do they trade him, try and restock some of the system, and build around Devers? But if Mookie is dead set on testing the market, which makes total sense, how much do you feel comfortable giving up to pry a franchise player from Boston? 

Free agency is not a good place to shop for stars.  Draft and trade for stars...fill in weak areas with competent free agents.

[caulfield12]

30 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Free agency is not a good place to shop for stars.  Draft and trade for stars...fill in weak areas with competent free agents.

They’ve tried to do this every season since 2005 ended with a WS trophy.

Not working.

Change the tier they’re looking at, or change the evaluators.

[ChiSox59]

2 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

They’ve tried to do this every season since 2005 ended with a WS trophy.

Not working.

Change the tier they’re looking at, or change the evaluators.

The White Sox have not tried to win since 2016, so this is not an accurate comment.  Perhaps we allow this regime a chance to actually try to win after changing their focus before we proclaim they're unable to do it.  

[Jack Parkman]

1 hour ago, ChiSox59 said:

The White Sox have not tried to win since 2016, so this is not an accurate comment.  Perhaps we allow this regime a chance to actually try to win after changing their focus before we proclaim they're unable to do it.  

This regime has been in place, in 2 different forms, since 2002.  It's been Rick Hahn, Kenny Williams, and Jerry Reinsdorf making decisions, regardless of job title, for that amount of time. The job titles have changed, but it's still the same braintrust. It's time for a new vision, and it's time for JR to take his hands out of the cookie jar. 

Edited September 10, 2019 by Jack Parkman

[ChiSox59]

15 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

This regime has been in place, in 2 different forms, since 2002.  It's been Rick Hahn, Kenny Williams, and Jerry Reinsdorf making decisions, regardless of job title, for that amount of time. The job titles have changed, but it's still the same braintrust. It's time for a new vision, and it's time for JR to take his hands out of the cookie jar. 

There is a 0% chance we'll get a new vision until Hahn has been given a chance to see the rebuild through.  But things obviously change starting this offseason.  

[Jack Parkman]

1 minute ago, ChiSox59 said:

There is a 0% chance we'll get a new vision until Hahn has been given a chance to see the rebuild through.  But things obviously change starting this offseason.  

I agree, but I think they might pull the trigger if it doesn't progress far enough quickly enough going forward. If it gets through 2021 with no playoffs I think Hahn gets whacked. 

Edited September 10, 2019 by Jack Parkman

[ChiSox59]

19 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I agree, but I think they might pull the trigger if it doesn't progress far enough quickly enough going forward. If it gets through 2021 with no playoffs I think Hahn gets whacked. 

Agreed completely on that time frame.

[ewokpelts]

On 9/9/2019 at 3:27 PM, Look at Ray Ray Run said:

Gains from free agency - in revenue and attendance - are short lived in baseball and rarely will pay for the enitirity of the contract. You really only see gains in year one and then you're back to having to win to draw. No one is paying extra to go watch Machado or bryce if their teams arent competitive. If those contracts hamper your abilities to be competitive, then in the long run they'll cost you just as much revenue as they earn you in year 1.

Look at the bad sponsorship deals the Sox have right now thanks to a team that is less than mediocre.  You don’t think a superstar contract won’t make the next round of sponsors pay more to be with a “winner”?! Look at how much the hawks have milked their period of greatness into cash money for the org.  They have sponsors for EVERYTHING.  And those are multi year deals. 

 

And don’t give me the “if the contracts hamper you in year 10 “ crap ken Williams. The Sox will be looking for a new stadium in ten years, and the tv deal ends in five years. If they want to win those lucrative negotiations, then you need to be a winning club and make state legislatures and tv networks fall in love with you. 

[35thstreetswarm]

2 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

Agreed completely on that time frame.

I sometimes wonder what would happen if you could get a critical mass of posters to sign a pact stipulating to something like the following:

1) The on-field results from 2007-2016 were unacceptable

2) It is fair and appropriate to criticize the ownership and management from that era for those results

3) It is fair and appropriate to be worried that the same regime is now in charge of the rebuild, given their past failures

4) Nonetheless, that regime broke meaningfully with past practice in undertaking a full-fledged rebuild in late 2016

5) The rebuild, while necessarily uncertain given its incompleteness, is showing at least some promising results

6) The full success of the rebuild cannot be judged until 2020 or 2021 when the key prospects have arrived and seen some testing at the big league level

7) It would be disruptive to change course dramatically when that key period is upon us (or substitute that, even if not disruptive, it is a waste of mental energy to pine for the architects of a rebuild to be fired at such a critical juncture), SO...

8) Let's withhold judgment a little while longer--and decide whether our skepticism in this regime was warranted or misplaced--after the next couple of years play out.

I think we could absolutely slash the length of most threads.  You could just say a magic word like:  "PACT" instead of hashing through the above points over and over in different contexts, different combinations, and different sequences. 

I suppose it would spoil some of the fun, though.

[ewokpelts]

18 hours ago, bmags said:

I mean what if yanks made Stanton available...

He is a lot of the worst tendencies of the Sox, but there are few options and he offers some very high end (and low end) years.

would not cost crazy talent

What? So he can opt out next offseason?

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

On 9/9/2019 at 7:46 PM, Balta1701 said:

 

I haven't thought about this at all...how do people think he will age?

To be frank, I don't think how anyone here will think he will age is significant. Usually posts expressing how they think someone will age is just used as a personal bias either for or against that player. No one really knows one way or the other how a player will age especially if they are suspected of being chemically enhanced and even if they are not and age well there is always suspicion .

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

19 hours ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

I sometimes wonder what would happen if you could get a critical mass of posters to sign a pact stipulating to something like the following:

1) The on-field results from 2007-2016 were unacceptable

2) It is fair and appropriate to criticize the ownership and management from that era for those results

3) It is fair and appropriate to be worried that the same regime is now in charge of the rebuild, given their past failures

4) Nonetheless, that regime broke meaningfully with past practice in undertaking a full-fledged rebuild in late 2016

5) The rebuild, while necessarily uncertain given its incompleteness, is showing at least some promising results

6) The full success of the rebuild cannot be judged until 2020 or 2021 when the key prospects have arrived and seen some testing at the big league level

7) It would be disruptive to change course dramatically when that key period is upon us (or substitute that, even if not disruptive, it is a waste of mental energy to pine for the architects of a rebuild to be fired at such a critical juncture), SO...

? Let's withhold judgment a little while longer--and decide whether our skepticism in this regime was warranted or misplaced--after the next couple of years play out.

I think we could absolutely slash the length of most threads.  You could just say a magic word like:  "PACT" instead of hashing through the above points over and over in different contexts, different combinations, and different sequences. 

I suppose it would spoil some of the fun, though.

While a unique idea I think anything that limits the number of posts is not something an owner of a message board likes to see. I don't care how often a poster repeats himself or if anyone gets tired of reading it. Positive opinion will generates negative ones and vice versa. There is just no way to get around it.

The success of a message board is not just quality posts but the number of posts too.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

On 9/9/2019 at 12:27 PM, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

And they’d still be well below .500 this season while needing to fill the same holes (RF, DH, pitching) with $30M less to spend. Guys like Mendick and Garcia will provide depth at the super sub position. Madrigal needs to be a regular as soon as he’s promoted.

I'd rather have guys who can also start be considered depth pieces with more pop like Moustakas (1st , 2nd,3rd). and Gennett (2nd, 3rd, OF) though with Mendick i'd like that bench or if worse comes to worse Moose at 1st, Abreu at DH Gennett at 2nd  in case of Madrigal struggles. Mendick to save a few dollars over Garcia . Engel can be backup CF (OF). I think i'd even have to consider Yolmer over Garcia at this point. Leury 's speed helps him in the OF but he isn't consistent and he just isn't a heady ballplayer . I'm sure the coaches could tell you a lot more than I could about how often Sox OF's miss cut off men.

The Sox just haven't got production from enough guys that translates into positive WAR which means the defense and hitting has to get better significantly from the starters and the bench.

[Bob Sacamano]

Gennett has played 16 games (10 starts) in the OF in his career and hasn't since 2017. I don't think he is an option for RF.

[Balta1701]

12 minutes ago, soxfan2014 said:

Gennett has played 16 games (10 starts) in the OF in his career and hasn't since 2017. I don't think he is an option for RF.

Most guys are pretty willing to switch positions if you pay them enough and give them a starting spot. 

The question I would have is more "is Gennett really what we're looking for out of RF next year"? Hypothetically if he struggles or is hurt again next year, but some other stuff goes right, that RF spot could be a big enough hole that we really regret not doing something different. His ceiling is higher than some players who should be comparable money, but his recent injury history suggests a potentially low floor.

[Bob Sacamano]

5 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Most guys are pretty willing to switch positions if you pay them enough and give them a starting spot. 

The question I would have is more "is Gennett really what we're looking for out of RF next year"? Hypothetically if he struggles or is hurt again next year, but some other stuff goes right, that RF spot could be a big enough hole that we really regret not doing something different. His ceiling is higher than some players who should be comparable money, but his recent injury history suggests a potentially low floor.

Yeah I'd prefer to aim higher. As a bench piece, sure.

[Balta1701]

Just now, soxfan2014 said:

Yeah I'd prefer to aim higher. As a bench piece, sure.

Scooter Gennett should not accept a spot as a bench piece unless he thinks he isn't healthy. Someone like Detroit or Baltimore will give him a couple million to start somewhere for them. If he comes out and is the hitter he was in 2018, he sets  himself up for a big payday. He is better off taking a little less money for a starting position than he is taking more money for a part time position with a contender unless he doesn't think he can stay healthy again.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

3 hours ago, soxfan2014 said:

Gennett has played 16 games (10 starts) in the OF in his career and hasn't since 2017. I don't think he is an option for RF.

At this point any LH bat with pop that has any experience in the OF is an option especially if the contract isn't lengthy or very expensive. He put up some nice years before he got hurt. I'd consider him a very strong bounce back candidate.

[Jack Parkman]

On 9/10/2019 at 4:52 PM, ewokpelts said:

What? So he can opt out next offseason?

There's no way in hell Stanton is opting out of that contract. He'll never get anything close to it again. Do you think Stanton can beat 8/218 on the open market? I don't even think he'd get $200M. Hell I'm not even sure he'd get more than 5/150 if he opts out. 

Edited September 11, 2019 by Jack Parkman

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

3 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

Scooter Gennett should not accept a spot as a bench piece unless he thinks he isn't healthy. Someone like Detroit or Baltimore will give him a couple million to start somewhere for them. If he comes out and is the hitter he was in 2018, he sets  himself up for a big payday. He is better off taking a little less money for a starting position than he is taking more money for a part time position with a contender unless he doesn't think he can stay healthy again.

Not necessarily. What he should do is realize the position he is in. Hurt all year traded then released by the team he was traded to. Guys like Wilmer Flores, Jonathan Schoop, Jason Kipnis, Brian Dozier  Starlin Castro, Josh Harrison and Ben Zobrist will all be in similar situations. Some of those guys are going to have to accept minor league deals. Schoop might be the only one to get a multi year deal. Castro has had a very strong 2nd half and a terrible 1st half.

 

Going into the 2019 season, Scooter Gennett was one of the more highly regarded players slated to become a part of the 2019-2020 Major League Baseball free agent class. Slashing a combined .303/.351/.508 (.859 OPS) with 50 home runs and 189 RBIs over two years with the Cincinnati Reds, he was one of the most productive second basemen in baseball.

Unfortunately, a severe groin strain limited his playing time and impacted his performance throughout the 2019 season. He only played 21 games with the Reds, slashing just .217/.236/.261 before being traded to the San Francisco Giants for a player to be named later. There, his performance improved, but not enough to keep him on the Giants roster for long, as he was released after just 21 games. Gennett landed on the open market two months earlier than anticipated and faces questions as to how he will fare as a free agent.

Gennett made $9.775 million in 2019.

 

http://www.baseballessential.com/news/2019/09/09/scooter-gennett-free-agent-question-mark/

So will teams wait him out to get a better understanding of his health or does he sign early to a one year deal for around $5-7M just to avoid a minor league deal ?

He could end up a bargain if he makes a full recovery he could be signed as a bench piece and end up being more even if the OF isn't in his future.